Somehow Lost Power to Outlet Wired While Changing ????


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Old 07-14-17, 05:27 PM
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Somehow Lost Power to Outlet Wired While Changing ????

So in the middle of a DIY bathroom remodel requiring I move a 15A dual outlet like ten inches.

I disconnect the outlet. I always check and double check the power. So I turn breaker on I then check for power to the wires...and nothing. There are two separate runs that went to the original outlet (one that appears to run up the wall..the other down the wall.

It happens I also disconnected the lighting above the vanity. So I thought perhaps...maybe...there was some connection there to the outlet (although...the switch that powers the vanity lighting never powered the outlet). So I provided devices to each of those connections to get them going. No joy.

The outlet has worked. It's been probably several months since it was last used, but can't conceive of why it suddenly would stop working. I have checked the breakers....all good.

Any ideas??? How could the power suddenly not be there? All I did was disconnect wires to an outlet.

It's very frustrating? How do I go about fixing this without hiring an electrician.

I do my own wiring from time to time...but certainly no expert and this is driving me nuts.

Thanks.
 
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Old 07-14-17, 05:37 PM
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Did you reconnect both runs? If not, why not?
 
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Old 07-14-17, 05:40 PM
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Turn the breaker all the way off then on. If no change: By code the receptacle should be GFCI if the breaker is not. If the receptacle is try resetting the receptacle. If If still no luck disconnect each cable and using multimeter measure from black to white and from black to ground of each cable. One cable should show ~120v black to white. (A non contact tester can not be used.)
 
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Old 07-14-17, 09:20 PM
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*** Did you reconnect both runs? If not, why not? ***

Yes. No joy.

*** Turn the breaker all the way off then on. If no change: By code the receptacle should be GFCI if the breaker is not. If the receptacle is try resetting the receptacle. If If still no luck disconnect each cable and using multimeter measure from black to white and from black to ground of each cable. One cable should show ~120v black to white. (A non contact tester can not be used.) ***

So...the original outlet was not GFCI. The one I intend to install is.

However....I test the lines before connecting to outlet. I'll do the check you suggest. What I have be using is a simple power check (touching black and white and looking for signal in device). In fact...I did connect the outlet and rechecked...but nothing.

Clearly...I've done something or something has happened (it occurred to me that a rodent might have gotten to it..but the runs are separate). Disconnecting/removing a standard outlet is not rocket science, but I don't recall doing anything unusual. As I said...it's probably been a few weeks since I last used the outlet and I didn't think to test it prior.

It's driving me nuts!!!!

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Last edited by osprey; 07-14-17 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 07-14-17, 10:39 PM
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I have be using is a simple power check (touching black and white and looking for signal in device
You're not looking for a signal you're looking for voltage. That is actually a test light and is a good way to test. Please check the voltage from black to the bare ground.

Your power may actually be routed from your bathroom light switch. You need to open that and redo any wire nut connections. Also post a picture of the wiring at the switch.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 03:17 AM
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Can you tell if the wires are stapled any place? If not you may have to go back to the next outlet, switch to see if any wires came loose there.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 09:31 AM
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NOTE: I have no ideas why the pictures come in upside down!! Sorry.

Folks:

Appreciate the inputs.

Yes...voltage is what I meant.

Some pictures.

Overall view. Hole in the wall is where the outlet is to go (I had connected extension wires to move the outlet...got rid of those in case I had screwed something up there -- still same issue). You can't see the two separate runs...but they are there. Lights hanging from wall are there to get a connection going since I removed the lights that were there.
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Switches running the bathroom lights. Left one runs ceiling lights. Right one runs vanity lights.
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Close up of the vanity light connections.
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I hooked this guy up to the bare wires in all manner of combinations...and get exactly nothing.
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Old 07-15-17, 10:12 AM
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In the box with 2 switches I can see 2 wire nuts. Can't see color of wires under one nut. Nut I can see looks like white wires
Make sure all wires under wire nuts are good connections. Take apart and redo.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 11:23 AM
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So here are the contents of the box with two light switches.

I intend to replace these...so maybe I'll go ahead and do that today.

As I said before...I don't believe either of these switches are connected to the outlet wires. I've been in this house almost 20 years...but yeah, it's possible I've only ever used the outlet with the lights on.

I'm at a loss. I did nothing out of the ordinary when disconnecting the outlet.

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Old 07-15-17, 11:46 AM
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There is no always-on power leaving that switch box. So either the receptacle outlet is controlled by one of the switches (no doubt the ceiling light one), or these photos have nothing to do with the problem receptacle.

Wait a sec though. In one of your earlier photos you showed two romex cables with yellow sheath. Everything since then has only shown white sheath. Are the yellow ones your new "extension wires"? Or where are these connected? I hope you were not planning on leaving a flying splice in the wall and covering it up...
 
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Old 07-15-17, 01:32 PM
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*** Are the yellow ones your new "extension wires"? Or where are these connected? I hope you were not planning on leaving a flying splice in the wall and covering it up...****

Yes...they were the extension wires. I removed them just to get back to square one. And no...wasn't going to do that. Going to put it in a box. Although that will be quite the challegne given the minimal space within which to work!

*** or these photos have nothing to do with the problem receptacle. ***

I'm thinking that's the reality. No combination of swithes up/down will power the wires for the outlet. I was thinking early on it might the issue...but I'm thinking not.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 02:03 PM
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What about the ceiling light(s), did you dismantle anything up there as well?

Are you 100% positive that these bathroom lights are on the same breaker as the receptacle? Meaning the receptacle did have power right before you turned off the breaker, and then you double-checked it was dead before removing it? If so, there's another junction somewhere.

I think I'd just pick up a Fluke Pro 3000 (or similar) from HD for $69 and start tracing those two runs through the walls/ceiling. That would be the fastest way to find out where they go. Maybe the last guy created a flying splice and you pulled it apart.

By the way, there should be something else in your house that is now dead since you have disconnected that connection in the old receptacle. Finding that dead device won't solve your problem, but aren't you curious?
 
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Old 07-15-17, 02:58 PM
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Just to neaten things when you replace switches don't wrap wire around screw. Pig tail 2 wires one to each switch.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 03:10 PM
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What about the ceiling light(s), did you dismantle anything up there as well?
I did not.

Are you 100% positive that these bathroom lights are on the same breaker as the receptacle?
Well…when I throw the breaker, everything shuts off (ceiling lights, vanity lights and shower/toilet lights). Can’t speak for the outlet, obviously.

Meaning the receptacle did have power right before you turned off the breaker, and then you double-checked it was dead before removing it?
No. Sadly, I did not check to see if it was working prior to removing it. I assumed it was as it was about a month or so ago (I only every used it to recharge some clippers).

I think I'd just pick up a Fluke Pro 3000 (or similar) from HD for $69 and start tracing those two runs through the walls/ceiling.
I have been considering this.

Maybe the last guy created a flying splice and you pulled it apart.
Possibly…but the each run is securely stapled to the stud about 5 inches from where I disconnected the outlet.

but aren't you curious?
Yes…altogether so!!
 
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Old 07-15-17, 03:33 PM
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Well…when I throw the breaker, everything shuts off (ceiling lights, vanity lights and shower/toilet lights). Can’t speak for the outlet, obviously.
...
Sadly, I did not check to see if it was working prior to removing it. I assumed it was as it was about a month or so ago (I only every used it to recharge some clippers).
I see. So you're not even sure this receptacle is on the same circuit, not sure you turned off the right breaker, and the only indication you had that it was dead and safe to work with was your voltmeter. You gotta be careful doing that, because you could have had an open neutral (0V reading) but the hot is still hot and waiting for you to become grounded so it can bite you in the rear end. Maybe you tested hot to neutral and ground... less likely they would both open up but it could still happen. This is one of the few good uses for a non-contact tester.

After you did your playing around with the switch positions a little while ago, you did test for voltage on both of those receptacle cables, I am assuming. Yesterday when you mentioned rodents as a possible explanation (but then dismissed it because it's 2 "separate runs"), I got the impression you thought these cables were redundant or something like that. (They are not) Only one of the cables will become live when you find/fix the problem.

I know you said this receptacle wasn't a GFCI. Just for kicks before you start tracing stuff the hard way, look for another GFCI somewhere. Could be in another bathroom or outside the house. It's possible the reason this was not a GFCI receptacle is because it was protected upstream.

Even if not, it's very possible the receptacle and the other mystery run is on a completely different circuit. Never assume the lights going off mean the receptacles are dead too... they often are on different circuits intentionally and for good reason.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 04:52 PM
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To add if you have two bathrooms and the receptacles in both are on the same breaker if modern national code was followed the lights are not on the same breaker. If you have a second bathroom of any kind that is the first place to look for a GFCI.

If that is modern cable the white cables at the switch indicates a 15 amp circuit. Code for at least ten years has required 20 amp breakers for bathroom breakers. Yellow sheathed cable is #12 typical for 20 amp circuits. If you turned off a 15 amp breaker in all likelihood it was the wrong breaker.

Please answer was it a 15 amp breaker you turned off?

Was the original receptacle cable yellow?
 
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Old 07-15-17, 06:08 PM
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You guys are getting very technical on me for a DIY type!! But that’s all really good.

To answer some questions.

So you're not even sure this receptacle is on the same circuit
No…I’m not. And frankly, I’ve seen some odd wiring hookups in this house. Odd to me anyway. As you say…probably very good reasons for it.

Again, however, all the breakers are apparently engaged at this point.

There is one GFCI outlet in the house. It is in the bathroom down the hall. It is a relatively new outlet (within the last say 5 years). I can’t remember if there was one there before or not, I would guess not. The one downstairs does have an outlet…but it is not GFCI.

you did test for voltage on both of those receptacle cables
I did not other than to ensure (by flipping the swithes) they both powered the receptacles once I removed the lighting fixtures.

If that is modern cable the white cables at the switch indicates a 15 amp circuit. Code for at least ten years has required 20 amp breakers for bathroom breakers. Yellow sheathed cable is #12 typical for 20 amp circuits. If you turned off a 15 amp breaker in all likelihood it was the wrong breaker.

Please answer was it a 15 amp breaker you turned off?
The breaker I threw is 15A. The yellow-sheathed wire I had connected (12) was for troubleshooting purposes – all I had in the house at the time. The stuff running throughout the house is white.

All the other bathrooms are still powered when I trip that breaker.

I got the impression you thought these cables were redundant or something like that.
Not so much. Really just offered that up for information purposes. I guess, not knowing any better, I would have assumed they would have at run from the same direction.

Could be in another bathroom or outside the house.
Hmmm…that’s interesting. Where outside the house might that be?

So let me ask what is likely a stupid question. Might it be the case that once the outlet gets hooked up all is good? As I said, I didn’t plug anything into the outlet to check it….only checked the wires after they were disconnected.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 06:29 PM
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only checked the wires after they were disconnected
Yeah, but what I was getting at was did you check both sets of wires when the switches were in the 'on' position. Or did you just check white-to-black on one set and assumed that meant everything was still broken? That's all I was getting at: Only one set of wires in one cable is going to show voltage from white to black when the problem is solved. The other set will still be dead.

Might it be the case that once the outlet gets hooked up all is good?
No. Not unless that ceiling light switch controls the outlet, and that you can check with your voltmeter with the wires still disconnected. It sounds like you may already have tested that for both sets of wires and they were still dead even though both switches were 'on'. I can't tell for sure if you did.

You mentioned the newer GFCI in the bathroom. I trust you made sure that it was not tripped, by hitting the reset button and making sure that outlet works.

Where outside the house might that be?
Just your run-of-the-mill receptacle mounted on the house siding with a weatherproof cover where you'd plug in Christmas lights or a weed-whacker. I wouldn't expect that to interrupt a bathroom receptacle, but some previous homeowner may have decided to tap into something he shouldn't have.
 
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Old 07-15-17, 08:10 PM
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I have seen backyard outside receptacles on a front of the house second floor bathroom GFCI so you can never assume. It could also be forgotten behind something in the garage or basement that hasn't been moved in years.
you did test for voltage on both of those receptacle cables
I did not other than to ensure (by flipping the swithes) they both powered the receptacles once I removed the lighting fixtures.
You need to also check black to ground.

Note if you are remodeling as you seem to be that receptacle needs to be brought up to code when moved that means 20 amps. So bottom line you need a new circuit anyway so the real fix is abandon the receptacle cable and run a new one that meets current code. The lighting can stay as is.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 04:30 AM
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Did you reset gfci in other bathroom?
 
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Old 07-16-17, 11:12 AM
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Yeah, but what I was getting at was did you check both sets of wires when the switches were in the 'on' position. Or did you just check white-to-black on one set and assumed that meant everything was still broken?
It sounds like you may already have tested that for both sets of wires and they were still dead even though both switches were 'on'. I can't tell for sure if you did.
Got it...sorry. Yes, I believe I have checked, with the volt meter, every conceivable combination of wires, with a both switches on and off (at same time and not). Although...as is my usual anal self I will do that all over again. It's conceivable I missed a combination.

You mentioned the newer GFCI in the bathroom. I trust you made sure that it was not tripped, by hitting the reset button and making sure that outlet works.
Yes....it was not tripped when I checked but I did the test and reset it.

I have seen backyard outside receptacles on a front of the house second floor bathroom GFCI so you can never assume. It could also be forgotten behind something in the garage or basement that hasn't been moved in years.
I guess I'll go on the hunt. I'm pretty sure I have found all the outside recepticles over the years..but have to confess probably not all the basement ones.

You need to also check black to ground.
See above. But like I said...I'll run that trapline again.

So bottom line you need a new circuit anyway so the real fix is abandon the receptacle cable and run a new one that meets current code.
That is decidedly beyond my capability and comfort level! It's starting to look like I need to bring in a professional...and he/she would likely recommend the same thing.

I think at a minimum I need to complete the splice and box it up and close off the hole. I have a vanity coming soon that will take up some of that real estate.



but some previous homeowner may have decided to tap into something he shouldn't have.
I had to chuckle at this one. I have not seen that in this house....but saw it a lot in previous house and others that I have worked on. Hell...I'm probably guilty of that in my younger days (I've grown a bit more conservative/cautious as I grow older).
 
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Old 07-16-17, 11:24 AM
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I think at a minimum I need to complete the splice and box it up and close off the hole. I have a vanity coming soon that will take up some of that real estate.
If you're going to hire someone anyway, I wouldn't close off the hole. He's just going to have to make more holes. Also I'd leave the vanity sitting off to the side until the circuit situation is settled. A cut hole where the vanity is going to go isn't such a big deal, but that becomes impossible after you install it.

For what it's worth, I haven't seen any proof here that it's not legal as it is. Just because it's white doesn't mean it's 14ga. Colored NM-b didn't come out until... 2000-2001 maybe? But I guess you certainly would have noticed the wire size difference when you hooked your 12ga up. Even if #12, it depends what else is on that circuit as stated above.

I've grown a bit more conservative/cautious as I grow older
If disassembling a potentially live receptacle bare-handed is cautious and conservative, I sure would have liked to have seen you in your younger days! (I am just teasing you... mostly.)
 
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Old 07-16-17, 11:54 AM
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Breaking News.

I don't know why I didn't think to do this before.

I went to the downstairs bathroom to see if that outlet (non GFCI) actually works. It does not.

And furthermore....when I checked the other upstairs bathroom (the one that has the GFCI outlet), it did not work either. Now...here's the thing. The GFCI button is tripped. Now I know I said I did the test and reset...which I surely went through the motions. And I'm pretty sure I got the "click" when I hit the test button before. Pretty damned sure...but at this point anything is possible. What I can't recall at this point is if I noticed a "positive" indication of a reset.

Problem is....that outlet will NOT reset. I press the button and it does not stay in. I repeatedly press the test button and then the reset...and nothing.

So......what can you do with that???



If you're going to hire someone anyway, I wouldn't close off the hole.
Yeah...I've reconsidered that. The portion of the vanity going in that would block it can easy be installed after the fact.


If disassembling a potentially live receptacle bare-handed is cautious and conservative, I sure would have liked to have seen you in your younger days! (I am just teasing you... mostly.)
Well...I'm an engineer (not Electrical...obviously) and so I'm sure I thought I knew absolutely everything about everything back then.
 

Last edited by osprey; 07-16-17 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 07-16-17, 12:36 PM
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Pull the gfci out of bathroom box and take the load wire off and see if it will reset. May be gfci is bad.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 03:04 PM
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The GFCI may not be powered. After you pull the GFCI out of the wall, use your voltmeter to test black to white, and also black to ground for both sets (line and load). I mean you were going to test this anyway, because you want to find the right breaker this time before monkeying with it, riiiight?

If both cables are dead, then unfortunately you have more searching to do. The gremlin is upstream of all this yet.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 03:24 PM
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I mean you were going to test this anyway, because you want to find the right breaker this time before monkeying with it, riiiight?
Hah!! I actually know which breaker powers the kids' bathroom. So, I'm good to go.

I will try both suggestions from core and pugsi.

Here's a question. As I said before, I'm about 95% sure that when I hit the "test" button on the GFCI outlet I got the click (presumably tripping the outlet). Pushing in the reset button does not restore power. Assuming in fact I did get the click on the test...is it possible that the outlet was, prior to me testing the outlet and getting the click, nonfunctional and thus creating my problem? I asked my daughter if she had used the outlet recently. She said she had used it...but couldn't really remember when.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 04:08 PM
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It's certainly possible that the GFCI is malfunctioning and is causing all of your problems. Not likely that you heard it click if it was truly nonfunctioning, because all the test button does is create a small leakage current. Not that it matters now.

It's also possible that you drove a drywall screw into one of those runs during your remodeling project and the GFCI is doing its job. pugsl's test will tell you that. But the GFCI is going to need live power on the 'line' screws before that test is meaningful.
 
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Old 07-16-17, 04:55 PM
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It's also possible that you drove a drywall screw into one of those runs during your remodeling project and the GFCI is doing its job.
Good Lord....I hope this isn't the case!! I don't think I started to drive any screws until after I found the problem. Although...I've been so busy doing all sorts of things in this bathroom over the last several days....I can't say as I remember. All I've done is attached 1/4 inch drywall to existing wall because the stuff I found underneath the rather large mirror I removed was pretty ugly and I didn't figure there was any good efficient way to fix it all without simply covering it up. I used relatively short drywall screws..just enough to get into the studs. Although there were a few "missed hits".

I'll do the test and see what comes of it. That'll have to be tomorrow night...as I'm currently embibing in a fairly high octane craft beer at the moment.

I can't tell you how appreciative I am of all your folks' inputs!! Thanks.
 
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Old 07-17-17, 06:50 PM
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Success!! But in a very round about way...but armed with some info you guys passed along.

As I drove into the garage yesterday...I noticed an outlet that I use frequently...but never bothered to notice if it was GFCI. In fact it was. I do the whole test/reset thing. I plug something into it and it works. Go upstairs to check to see if I have power in the bath that I am renovating. And nothing. Check the other outlets, nothing (...importantly I do not test/rest the GFCI in the kids bath).

So, sometime later I use the sink in the kids bath to wash my face...and I notice a little light on the GFCI outlet in the kids bath. And I think....hmm....didn't notice that before. So I attempt a test/rest and the light goes out. Then I plug something into that outlet and it works. Go to the powder room bath on the first floor and it works. I test the lines in the reno bath...and they are powered (one of them)!! As it happens..I managed to touch the black line and the ground with the voltage meter prong at one point...and get a spark. No power. All of this, by the way, running up and down two sets of stairs repeatedly throwing breakers on and off. I go in the basement to see if I trip a breaker. Nope. So I go into the kids bath and attempt a reset of the GFCI. No joy. THEN....I go into the garage and reset the GFCI there and then reset the kids bath GFCI....and voilà !!! Power to ALL outlets. I did a quick and dirty hookup of the old outlet and it works fine.

So apparently...as suggested, there is one, remote, GFCI taking care of all three bathrooms (and perhaps the kitchen ones by the sink) -- and it's in the garage. Who the hell knew? Well..you guys, of course. I was telling my story at work today and one of the guys said his "remote" GFCI was right below his breaker box.

I have no idea why the GFCI in the garage tripped. I obviously did something...but I don't know what it was.

Anyway, two things.

A question: Do I need to install GFCI in the reno bath? Do I need to keep the one in the kids bath? One of the guys at work said it was his experience that when you have more than one....you keep popping them.

Lastly....much thanks to all. I have learned a lot this week!!!
 

Last edited by osprey; 07-17-17 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 07-17-17, 07:43 PM
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As I said you need to run a new circuit to the bathroom but if you continue to use what you have and the garage does supply the others I'd move the feed out from load to line and put a GFCI in each bathroom with the the GFCI receptacle fed by the garage switched from load out to line out. That way each GFCI will be independent of the others.
 
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Old 07-18-17, 03:49 AM
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Now you know why we keep saying look for all GFCI outlets.
 
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Old 07-18-17, 09:00 AM
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Excellent news! Now that everything is working, now would be a good time to find out what's all on that breaker and write it down. (Same for the rest of the breakers when you have time.) Not only will it save you a bunch of fuss next time you need to replace something, but it also may save your life.

I have no idea why the GFCI in the garage tripped. I obviously did something...but I don't know what it was.
Assuming no cable damage from drywall screws, what probably happened is that when you were dismantling that live receptacle you created a path from hot to ground. Possibly via your body. If this circuit had been wired in a more conventional manner, you might be a crispy critter right now!

Do I need to install GFCI in the reno bath? Do I need to keep the one in the kids bath? One of the guys at work said it was his experience that when you have more than one....you keep popping them.
I would second Ray's suggestion to swap some wires around and make them all independent. 2 GFCIs inline with each other shouldn't cause nuisance trips, but it does cause you to set off on a goose chase anytime something trips: The one you expect to trip often won't be the one that does. And the test button on the downstream one may not function correctly / as expected.
 
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Old 07-18-17, 02:06 PM
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wiring

could be a loose connection at the outlet or even a wiring problem
 
 

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