adding floodlights

[awk316]

My project is similar, so I didn't want to start a new thread...

I really appreciate any guidance you can provide me. This will be my first attempt at electrical work.

Goal: Mount small outdoor spotlights under the roof overhang to shine down onto the garage door.

I went to Home Depot and found two outdoor spotlights that would work great. Now my problem is getting electricity to them. I asked a guy at HD, “so I can just run Romex to them?” and he said “Yup, 14 gauge.” So that led to my first question: Do I really have to use 14 gauge, or is it ok to use 12 gauge? My friend has left over 12 gauge from adding an outlet behind his TV, so it would be great if I could just use that. The 12 is thicker anyways, right?

I’ve scoped out the inside of my garage, and the best option seems to be tapping into a junction box above my garage door. That box has one coming in from the direction of the electrical box on the side of the house, and two going out: One to an outdoor outlet and one to the attic I think. The junction box also has an outlet attached to the bottom of it which the garage door plugs into.

My plan is to pop out of the unused covers and run conduit from that box across the beams in the garage and down a stud just inside the garage door. That part of the garage is unfinished. I would mount an electrical box to the stud and have it be a light switch. I’m assuming up until this point, 12 gauge is fine because it is indoors. Or, should I just see what the gauge is in the box, and match it to that gauge? From the new light switch, I would run the wire (12 or 14 gauge?) back up the wall and drill a small hole just above the garage door to get the wire outside and to the mounted spotlights under the roof overhang.

Again, I really appreciate any comments and advice.


Thanks a lot!

Andy

[Furd]

Same advice as in the first response, before you do ANYTHING, read the book Wiring Simplified. After you understand the different gauges of wire along with wiring methods (cable and conduit) you will be able to better understand what needs to be done. You might also try your local library for home improvement type books that have chapters on electrical work.

There's nothing magical about electrical work and I strongly believe that anyone of average intelligence can do most electrical jobs around the home but you first need to understand the basics.

[ray2047]

If you can use Romex depends on if it will be exposed and if it will be used in wet conditions. Whether you can use #14 depends on breaker size not a guess by the HD guy.

[awk316]

Thanks for the replies!

Ordered "Wiring Simplified." It'll be here Thursday.

Before I get the book, how do I know my breaker size?

The wire shouldn't get wet as it will be under the overhang of the roof.

[Furd]

Circuit breakers have their ampere rating printed on the handle. You first need to determine what circuit breaker controls the receptacle that you wish to run the power from to the lights. Soometimes there is a detailed "panel schedule" in the circuit breaker panel but often as not it is either not correct or extremely vague. (This is where I get to post THE SERMON, a piece I paraphrased from a former moderator of this forum.)

When you first move into a new home (new to you) you need to "map out" the electrical circuits. By this I mean that you need to one-by-one turn off each circuit breaker and check which receptacles and which lights are controlled by that particular circuit breaker.

You need to locate each and every GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) receptacle and know if there are any receptacles or lights that are wired "downstream” of this receptacle.

You need to make a detailed "Panel Schedule" that lists all of the above information. Do NOT rely on the existing panel schedule (if there even is one) because it may be wrong.

Keep the panel schedule at the circuit breaker panel and keep a spare copy with your electrical tools. If you make any changes in your electrical system such as adding a receptacle be sure to make a new panel schedule reflecting those changes.

This information is important. Some day it could save your life

.

The fact that you think the underside of the garage eave is not wet is not enough as the National Electrical Code has strict definitions of dry, damp and wet locations. What you call Romex is more properly bknown as type NM cable and most of the type NM manufactured today is actually type NM-B. Type NM-B cable is only for permanently dry locations and it could be acceptable IF you use recessed boxes in the soffit under your eaves AND can be run from inside the garage to the enclosed soffit without it being exposed to the great outdoors.

You also mentioned conduit. While type NM cable is often run through short pieces of conduit for physical protection the preferred wiring method when using conduit is individual wires. Using conduit properly introduces a host of other considerations, too many to go through here for just general knowledge.

After reading the books you will have lots of questions and that is where the volunteers on this site will guide you. Starting from scratch you simply don't have enough knowledge yet to even try to ask all the questions, that is what the books are for, to give you a good solid grounding in the basics and then allow you to ask the questions that pertain to your project.

You CAN do it and we are here to help.

[goldstar]

On most breakers, look at the end of the toggle switch. It should be marked - ie. 20 for twenty amps etc.

[awk316]

My breakers range from 15 to 30. The breaker that turns off the outdoor outlet and the garage door is on a 15. This is the junction box I'm planning on tapping into.

Feel free to ignore these questions until I read the book on Thursday.

All GFCI outlets should have a reset button, right? I don't see this on my outdoor outlet which is surprising. I just moved into this house which was built in 1997, so I would think they should have made it a GFCI. Maybe it was done incorrectly by one of the previous owners. I guess I should fix that while I'm at it.

The only other conduit coming from the junction box is heading into the fire wall to the house/attic. It's going to take me awhile to ID which other outlets are associate with this breaker. I assume the easiest way to do this is pick up a receptacle tester? Any preference on the plug in ones or the pen style?

I'm 99% sure I'm not going to be able to use a recessed box, therefore, the wire will be exposed to the air under the eave before heading into the garage.

Thanks again everyone!

[ray2047]

All GFCI outlets should have a reset button, right?

Not if it is off the load side of another GFCI receptacle or a GFCI breaker.

I assume the easiest way to do this is pick up a receptacle tester? Any preference on the plug in ones or the pen style?

A test light or analog multimeter would be my suggestion. The pen type can give a false positive.

I'm 99% sure I'm not going to be able to use a recessed box, therefore, the wire will be exposed to the air under the eave before heading into the garage.

In that case it is best to use conduit.

Note the terms cable and wire are not the same. A wire is a singled conductor. If you have two or more conductors in a sheath it is a cable.

[goldstar]

If you plan to stay in this house for a while, you can do yourself a large favor by mapping the electric circuits. Draw a sketch of your floor plan and mark every outlet and ceiling light/paddle fan in every room. include the garage and basement as separate drawings. Mark any GFCI recepts on the drawing as you go. Then, turning off one breaker at a time, find which recepts and lights are off. Mark the position number of the breaker ( not the amps) next to each dead spot. Turn the breaker back on and turn off the next one, Repeat the process until you have the whole house mapped. Yes, it takes some time, but you will thank yourself many times in the future. You may even find a GFCI in the garage that feeds the outside recept, saving you from unnecessarily replacing the outside recept.

[awk316]

Thanks again for the info...

I will pick up a receptacle test light and map my house. I agree that that is definitely valuable, and not just for this project.

Thanks for the clarification on wire and cable as well.

As I get the fundamentals down, I'll add some pics so that the details of what I'm trying to do are clearer, but if I have to run conduit outside under the eave to each spotlight, does that mean I'll need a junction box at each light to house the pigtails?

Thanks Everyone! It's really appreciated as I'm not only learning a ton, but saving a bunch of money in not paying an electrician to come out. When we moved in to this house, I had an electrician come out to address an observation in the inspection report and all he did is loosen the grounds in the breaker box where two were "double lugged" and put them each into their own slot. $100. That inspired me to try this myslef.

[pcboss]

There is a cable called UF that is rated for use outdoors and underground. It is not very easy to strip but could be an option instead of conduit. Look or ease of installation may influence your decision.

[awk316]

Thanks for the tip on the UF. Looks aren't important as it's in the garage and under an eave. I just want to do it right, which is why I'm on this site.

I was thinking about the 12 AWG vs 14 AWG romex, and what I can't figure out is why the 14 AWG packaging says "outdoors" and the 12 says "indoors." Is it because it's assuming your outdoor needs don't need the amps of indoor requirements, so the 14 is sufficient? Seems like a bold claim to put on the packaging. A novice like me would just grab it and go based on this..."Oh, 'Outdoors,' perfect!"

Anyways, thanks again for all the help. I'll ID eveything on the circuit tonight, assess if there is a GFCI or not, then post again with some pictures of what I want to accomplish which will help you all help me. On Thursday, I should receive the book, then I'll have more detailed questions.

Thanks again!

Andy

[pcboss]

Sounds like the package may have been mislabeled or it may have been a roll of UF. Regular NM-B should not be used outdoors.

[ray2047]

What color is the sheath on the alleged Romex that says outdoors?

[braether3]

it could also be sunlight resistant nm Though I haven't seen that in awhile

[awk316]

Thanks for the questions. I hit up HD at lunch for a test light, and I actually got someone who seemed to know what they were doing and was willing to help out.

The 14/2 I looked at was indeed UF-B, which is why it said "Outdoor."

My new plan based on my conversation at HD is to avoid the light switch all together and just install a photo cell in line to have the lights turn on at dusk, off at dawn.

So my revised wire senario is running UF-B 12/2 from the junction box to the wall just above the garage door. Then drill through. Ideally, I can get into the space behind the soffit and drop down into a juction box for each light. If I can not get into the space behind the soffit, I'll just have to tack the cable along the inner edge.

My question if I go this route is regarding the junction boxes. If I do not run conduit (since this is UF-B, it's not needed, right?), what is the best way for the UF-B cable to enter the junction box? Should I just punch out a hole and put it though? This would leave an open 1/2" (guess on the size) hole with a cable running out. Or, should I plug it and drill a hole in the plug the size of the cable? Or do they sell plugs with holes in them?

Thanks again for all the help! It is greatly appreciated!

[braether3]

do this if possible

[awk316]

Thanks for the pic! That is exactly what I want to do!

So it will be possible to enter that area behind the soffit to run the wire. I'll just have to make sure I drill through from the garage at the right point?

Thanks again for the pic. Worth 1000 words for sure.

[pcboss]

You need to use a connector like this without the locknut into the back of the box shown. They are typically good for 2 flat cables or one round cable.

[awk316]

That connector is exactly what I thought should exist. Thanks for the pic!

I really appreciate all the help. I am light years ahead of 24 hours ago on my understanding of what has to happen. I'm looking forward to getting the book tomorrow and hopefully knocking out this project this weekend.

So here's my prelim inventory list...

- UF-B 12/2 Cable.
- Cable to Junction Box Connectors
- Wire Nuts
- 2 Round Junction Boxes (one for each light, as shown in pic below)
- 2 Round Cover Plates to Mount the light two
- 2 Lights (end of light is treaded to go directly into Junction Box Cover Plate)
- Photo Cell (Should Fit in first Round Juction Box).

[pcboss]

The only thing that seems to be missing from your list is cable staples or something else to properly secure the cables.

Be sure to connect all ground wires together and to the metal boxes.

[braether3]

That connector is exactly what I thought should exist. Thanks for the pic!

I really appreciate all the help. I am light years ahead of 24 hours ago on my understanding of what has to happen. I'm looking forward to getting the book tomorrow and hopefully knocking out this project this weekend.

So here's my prelim inventory list...

- UF-B 12/2 Cable.
- Cable to Junction Box Connectors
- Wire Nuts
- 2 Round Junction Boxes (one for each light, as shown in pic below)
- 2 Round Cover Plates to Mount the light two
- 2 Lights (end of light is treaded to go directly into Junction Box Cover Plate)
- Photo Cell (Should Fit in first Round Juction Box).

If its a 15 amp circuit you could use # 14 wire....but if the existing wire is 12 use 12 for future breaker upgrade

[ray2047]

You can also set an old-work box flush with the soffit. That way you have a hole large enoug to make wire fishing easier.

[awk316]

Thanks again for all the info...

I will ensure to secure the cable, as well as make sure I'm grounded.

I agree, and I will use the same AWG that is currently in the junction box. I'm guessing it's 12, but I'll know when I get in there.

Thanks Ray. That was also suggested by Furd, but I am uncertain how much room is between the soffit and the roof. I'm not sure that will fit. I guess the only way to find out is to drill a pilot hole and see.

Of course it was raining here today at lunch (not too common in Thousand Oaks, CA), so I couldn't take pictures. If it's not raining when I get home from work, I'll take some pics and post them.

[awk316]

Alright, shot some pics in the drizzle...

Here is the junction box I plan on tapping into. The conduit from the right is coming from the breaker box. The condiut on the left is going to the outdoor outlet, and I still have to determine where the thrid is going. The blue arrow represents my planned new cable. There is an outlet attached to it which the garage door and Verizon FIOS plug into...



Here is the inside of the garage where I will have to drill through to the outside, or ideally, into the void between the roof and the soffil. Do determine where to drill, I measured the point where the angled roof meets the wall above the garage (107")...



Here's a view from the outside looking at the garage...



And finally, here is a look under the eave. The soffil meets the wall at the same 107" height as the inside...


So how do I get from the garage to the ouside? Should I drill up from inside the garage? Would that allow me to get into the space between the soffil and the roof? I'm fairly certain I will not have room for work box. I don't think there is hardly any room in there.

Thanks again everyone!

Andy

[awk316]

I traced the circuit that I'm planning on tapping into. The thrid conduit is going to the fire wall of the house leads to a GFCI in the garage on the fire wall. So that circuit has:

Outlet - Garage Door, and Verizon Fios.
Outdoor Outlet - Malibu lights and sprinkler system.
GFCI - Surge protector for random work in the garage (battery charging, shop light, etc.)

[ray2047]

[braether3]

well all that conduit makes me wonder if your local code allows romex?? is there romex used in the house at all or in houses nearby?

[awk316]

As for the picture question, that is the top edge of my rain gutter, so I won't want to come through there.

As for romex, I don't know. It is CA, so I know the codes here are tight from what I've read. I'm pretty sure romex is allowed, but I've never looked behind walls to check. Is there an easy way to find out? My friend just ran romex through his wall to add an outlet for his TV, and that's what the home theater install guy told him to do (not that he was an electrician though).

Thanks again for the continued help!

[braether3]

better call up the inspector just to ask...

[ray2047]

As for the picture question, that is the top edge of my rain gutter, so I won't want to come through there.

No, I said come through from the inside at that point. That should put you inside the soffit.... or looking at the picture again do you just have an eve and fascia, no soffit?

[awk316]

Sorry, I think I'm confused on what a soffit is. I thought it was a term for the underside of the eve that has a finished look. What I'm calling a soffit, runs on an angle with the roof line, and I think there is very minimal space between the top of the roof and this underside. The "soffit" is not parallel to the ground creating a triangle void with the roof line. Is that what a true soffit is? Here is an angle pointing away from the house..



Sorry for the confusion.

So, do you think there any space at all between this under panels of the eave and the roof tiles for me to fit a cable?

Thanks again!

[awk316]

Here's a sketch of what it is...

Blue is what I've been calling soffit. Red is gutter...

[Furd]

You don't have a soffit, what you see is the underside of the roof deck.

You will need to use surface mount weatherproof boxes and then fasten the floodlights to the boxes. I would suggest that you use PVC (plastic) boxes and conduit. You can buy pre-bent forty-five degree and ninety degree angles. If you need to make a non-standard bend you can soften the PVC conduit with a heat gun but if you do be careful to evenly heat the conduit all around and for at least six inches in length. Carefully bend while hot taking care not to collapse the conduit. You will need to hold it in position until it cools.

Half-inch nominal size will be quite sufficient for the conduit size and you would use individual wires inside the conduit, type THHN/THWN. You can buy this wire by the foot and you will need green, white and black. The conduit glues together with a special cement just like PVC piping although no primer is required as in plumbing.

[ray2047]

I don't know how much work you are willing to do to accomplish this but if I was doing this I would consider putting 3/8" plywood on the bottom side of the 2X4 cripples that support your roof deck. You would run the wiring first then the plywood. You could either use flush or surface boxes.

[awk316]

Thanks again for the great posts!

So two options:
1. Creating an enclosed box to serve as a soffit is a clever idea I hadn't thought of. I'll have to think about that. I wonder if it would look strange only having two out of 7 or so gaps covered in plywood. Although, it's under the eave, so who really cares.

Pros: No visible cable/conduit.

Cons: Extra work (wood work), but seems fairly minimal.

Cost: Don't have to buy conduit, but have to buy wood.

2. Running Conduit. So, I would drill a 1/2" hole just below the 107" mark to get under the eave (black circle in pic), then run conduit (Green spray paint line) to the pvc box (blue, similar to pic by braether3, except my wires would enter from the side via conduit, not from the top)...



Pros: No need for wood work.

Cons: Visible conduit.

Cost: Conduit, but no wood.

For either option, what is the feeling on getting from the junction box to the garage wall? UF-B or Conduit & THHN/THWN?

I'm assuming Furd mean't Conduit/THHN/THWN for inside and out.

Thanks again everyone!!!

[ray2047]

I wonder if it would look strange only having two out of 7 or so gaps covered in plywood.

Actually I meant to cover all the spaces. One sheet of plywood ripped length ways should provide enough material. If you did that you would only have to run cable to one light from inside. The other light you would run off the first. You would just drill holes in the 2X4s to run the cable across.

Of course covering either two single space or all the spaces would work but I was thinking the plywood would look nicer then the exposed boards you have now so it would be a 2-for-1 project. Spruce up the overhang and get lights.

[awk316]

That makes more sense: Get a piece of plywood, cut it in strips length-wise to size, paint white, and screw into the cripples.

If I went this route, I would definitely use the flush box. I wonder if even that would be enough to hide the light from the street. Now my mounting point is 4 inches closer to the ground, plus the 3/8" thicknes. It does look like there is another 4 inches or so to provide cover.

However, the PVC box is going to be a good couple inches tall as well.

[awk316]

Update question for option 2:

Furd, would you use PVC conduit only on the outside and the flexible aluminum conduit on the inside? If so, can these two be easily joined?

Or just PVC conduit the entire way?

Do you silicone the connection of the PVC conduit to the PVC box?

[ray2047]

I wonder if even that would be enough to hide the light from the street.

I didn't know you were trying to hide the lights. Is that important?