Help with Wiring for new Cooktop


  #1  
Old 07-23-10, 04:18 PM
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Help with Wiring for new Cooktop

All,

I've been reading several threads on this topic and found them all very informative! I decided to join and submit a thread of my own because all of the other threads on this topic (5-6 that I found) are not the exactly the same as my situation. Here goes:

I'm replacing an old GE cooktop (circa '78) with a brand new Kenmore cooktop. The house wiring is 2-wire + ground (black, white, bare copper ground). Both the new and the old cooktop are 2-wire + ground (black, red, green insulated ground). My initial reaction to this was obvious: old & new wires are identical therefore hookup is identical. I now have serious doubts about this after reading several threads on this forum, although none of this threads that I read dealt with a cooktop that had only 3-wires (All involved 3-Wire house to 4-Wire cooktop connections). So, what do I need to do?

Some more information:

House Wiring:
Old cooktop & oven were wired on the same circuit. I'm not sure what the correct terminology is, but in the box the circuit is connected to 2 40A switches that are joined together (double pole?). The black and white wire is (twisted?) copper, aka, it's not a solid wire but several. They are large individual wires though, I'd say that it is either and 8 or 6 gage wire made of around 10 copper strands.

Old Cooktop (from plate):
Manufacturer:: GE
Model: P651 002HA
Volts kW
208 5.5
240 7.0

New Cooktop (from plate & manual):
Plate info -
Manufacturer:: Kenmore
Model: 790.41221903
Volts kW Hz
/208 5.9 60
/240 7.9 60
"2-wire appliance - 120V/240V AC"

Manual info -
"A 3-wire or 4-wire single phase 120/240 or 120/208 Volt, 60Hz AC only electrical supply is required on a separate circuit fused on both sides of the line (red and black wires). A time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended. DO NOT fuse neutral (white wire)."

"This appliance is manufactured with a frame connected green (or bare copper) ground wire."

"Your appliance is not equipped with a white neutral conductor. Connect only to a 3-wire, 120/240V power supply; the neutral conductor is not required for the operation of the appliance. The potential at the power supply electical connections shall be 150V to ground or less."

"Where local codes permit connecting the applicance-grounding conductor to the neutral (white) wire:
(Diagram) House / Cooktop:
Bl / Bl
Rd / Rd
Wh / Gr"

"If cooktop is used in a new branch circuit installation (NEC 1996), mobile home, recreational vehicle, or where local codes DO NOT permit grounding through the neutral (white) wire:
(Diagram) House / Cooktop:
Bl / Bl
Rd / Rd
Gr / Gr
Wh - capped"

This is all the information I can put together short of posting pictures. Any suggestions?

Thanks!
 
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Old 07-23-10, 05:15 PM
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A little confused about all the quotes. When you say 120/240 circuit, common for stoves, that requires a neutral. In the old days, they allowed the metal chassis of the stove to connect to the neutral conductor. Today , that is considered NOT SAFE ENOUGH and it is required to have a neutral conductor AND a ground. The one thing you can NOT do is use the ground as the neutral. A green wire or a bare wire are ground, not neutral.

A stove that did not have a clock or light bulb, or some other circuit that needed just the 120, could be connected to a 3 wire, 2 hots and a ground. But that would be hardwire, and I don't think they hardwire stoves any more. Cooktops...maybe.

A good example of a 3 wire pure 240 appliance is a water heater. They ARE hardwired, and have 2 hots and a ground.


We need a better picture of exactly what your new appliance calls for.
 
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Old 07-23-10, 05:27 PM
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Both the existing and new cooktops are 3 wire, no neutral on either of them. Your old cooktop and oven are wired together on a 40 amp 240 volt circuit and that was wrong. The new cooktop is 7.9 kw which will draw a maximum of 32.9 amps at 240 volts. I'd wire the new cooktop to the existing 40 amp circuit and run a new circuit for the oven. To the existing 3 wire circuit (no neutral), connect black to black, red to white and green ground to bare copper ground.

The electrical requirements for the oven need to be considered before running a new circuit for it, do you know what they are?
 
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Old 07-23-10, 11:50 PM
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Joe.,

Please do correct me but IIRC there were a code section that do allowed that kind of set up ??

I just can't remeber where it was in the NEC code however on French side it do allowed but very limited use that about it

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 07-24-10, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by french277V
Joe.,

Please do correct me but IIRC there were a code section that do allowed that kind of set up ??

I just can't remeber where it was in the NEC code however on French side it do allowed but very limited use that about it

Merci.
Marc

Hi Frenchy

NEC 210.19 (A)(3) exception 1

You are indeed allowed to have both a cooktop and oven on the same branch circuit. The catch is it must be a 50 amp branch circuit.The tap conductors must be at least rated to carry 20 amps and not longer than necessary and big enough to serve the cooking appliance to which they are connected. These tap conductors are generally the appliance pigtail.

So the problem here is the branch circuit is 40 amps.

If by chance the wiring is 6 awg copper cable or #8 awg thhn copper in conduit then he could install a 50 amp breaker and have both appliances exist on the same branch circuit.

Otherwise Joe is correct ... separate circuits are needed.
 

Last edited by Bruto; 07-24-10 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 07-24-10, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by french277V
Joe.,

Please do correct me but IIRC there were a code section that do allowed that kind of set up ??

I just can't remeber where it was in the NEC code however on French side it do allowed but very limited use that about it

Merci.
Marc
Yes there is a provision for that and Bruto has quoted it, but my answer was based on the current draw of the new cooktop on a 40 amp circuit. In this situation, it makes more sense to me to simply run a new circuit for the oven (or the cooktop). It seems to me that I used to see (many years ago) 30 amp circuits run to both cooktops and ovens. It also seems to me that almost all freestanding ranges required no more than a 40 amp circuit, but it appears that is changing as well. I also stated to the OP that the way his old cooktop and oven was wired was wrong. That was also based upon the 40 amp circuit and a maximum current draw on the old cooktop of 29.1 amps. Personally, I would prefer separate circuits to the cooktop and oven.
 
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Old 07-24-10, 10:44 PM
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Joe and Bruto.,

Merci for pointing it out I have to relook at the NEC code book sure enough ya right I don't know how I did miss that one I knew it was in there somewhere.

To Op I think it will be much wiser to run the new indivual circuits one for wall oven and the other one for cooktop due the new one have much higher KW rating not like in old days it was much lower.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 07-25-10, 02:36 PM
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Post More Information

Thank you all for the replies! I've collected more information as well as pictures to help describe the situation more clearly. After seeing all of the advice here, I went to the store to pickup some wire to run. When I asked the employee to cut the amount I needed, he inquired about the project. After I told him the situation, he simply insisted that I didn't need to run anything new. I told him everything that you have said in this thread, and he still insisted. So, here's some more details:

(Also, I am having an electrician come tomorrow to install something unrelated, so I'll ask him as well and report back here)


Whole kitchen showing the cooktop, oven, and microwave

As you can see above, I forgot to include the fact that the new oven is actually an oven/microwave combo. Obviously that only adds to the power requirements. Here is the information from the old oven/cooktop & the new oven/cooktop/microwave (all info taken from serial plates):

OLD Oven:
Manufacturer:: GE
Model: J KP07 001HA
Volts kW
208 3.6
240 4.8

OLD Cooktop:
Manufacturer: GE
Model: P651 002HA
Volts kW
208 5.5
240 7.0

NEW Oven:
Manufacturer: Kenmore
Model: 790.48843900
Volts kW
208 5.9
240 7.9
"3-wire appliance - AC"

NEW Cooktop:
Manufacturer: Kenmore
Model: 790.41221903
Volts kW Hz
/208 5.9 60
/240 7.9 60
"2-wire appliance - 120V/240V AC"

NEW Microwave:
Manufacturer: Kenmore
Model: 318279601A
Volts kW
120 1.5

*NOTE - New Oven/Micro are a single unit




Oven connection


House wiring for Cooktop (no writing on cable, that I can see)


Cooktop Wiring


Breaker Box

Cooktop Manual:
Installation Guide - KENMORE Counter Unit Electric 318205404B, 79041229903, 79041221903 - ManageMyLife.com

Oven/Micro Manual:
Owner's Manual - KENMORE Built In Oven, Electric with Microwave 79048852900, 79048859900, 79048849900, 79048853900, 79048842900, 79048843900, 318205148 - ManageMyLife.com

Here's what I don't understand: The OLD oven + cooktop were 4.8kW & 7.0kW respectively which means they required 49.17A together. That obviously means they were NOT on a 40A circuit, right? I mean, I guess I don't understand how that is setup in the box. Breakers 1-10 are all fused together in pairs. Breakers 9 & 10 are the ones for my oven/cooktop and each of the 2 switches says 40A. Since the power requirements for the old models exceed 40A, does that mean that this is actually an 80A circuit? Confused!
 
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Old 07-25-10, 03:05 PM
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When the electrician comes over, ask him for a price to replace the FPE split bus panel. I would say it's probably grandfathered, but it's not a legal panel by today's codes. As you are now, you have no spaces to add another circuit. Even if you had spaces, a new 2 pole FPE breaker will cost you somewhere between $50 and $100.
 

Last edited by CasualJoe; 07-25-10 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 07-25-10, 03:17 PM
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Cooktop electrical requirements from installation manual.
The circuit breaker or fuse amperage
recommended for your appliance is 40A or 50A,
 
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Old 07-25-10, 03:23 PM
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Nice setup!

One question of yours was whether a 40A double pole breaker was really 40A or 80A.

It's 40A. If _one_ of the legs' current draw exceeds the rated amperage, that _side_ of the breaker will trip. When it does trip, the other side is supposed to trip via mechanical means. (The big plastic bar) But I have been in plenty of rental cabins and such where I have found only half of the circuit tripped. (Humidity, abuse, dunno -- but vandalism isn't possible in that respect.)

As for your 49.17A calculation? Well you got that indirectly from the 240V nameplate rating, right? Two things: That's only valid when 1) Everything is on full blast AT THE SAME EXACT TIME. 2) At exactly 240V.

Of course you're never going to have exactly 240.0V so your original question isn't even numerically valid . Higher voltage and it's going to suck more power. Or if lower voltage, lower power. And thus that would change your amperage ratings, (but you blindly calculated those at 240V, no?).

Putting that aside:

If you turned on ALL 4 burners at once, AND turned on the oven on full blast, I would expect your breaker to trip. Odds of that happening? Just about zero.

Even on thansgiving with a houseful of people, the oven is going off and on with the thermostat (hopefully), the burner with the gravy is hardly ever coming on, and so on. Maybe if you really tried you could get it to draw 49A if you wanted. You would really have to try.

As for your 120V breakers being "fused in pairs", that's a new one for me. Breakers will be "fused" together to insure they are on different legs, but I've not personally seen independent 120V ones "fused" together. Maybe they build 'em differently these days. Probably would be an improvement; these Wal-Mart builder jobs I've seen lately are terribly imbalanced and I know the builders don't care.
 
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Old 07-25-10, 03:29 PM
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As for your 120V breakers being "fused in pairs", that's a new one for me. Breakers will be "fused" together to insure they are on different legs, but I've not personally seen independent 120V ones "fused" together. Maybe they build 'em differently these days.
I think he is referring to the 2 pole breakers with the handles tied together. Spaces 1-10.
 
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Old 07-25-10, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by core
As for your 49.17A calculation? Well you got that indirectly from the 240V nameplate rating, right? Two things: That's only valid when 1) Everything is on full blast AT THE SAME EXACT TIME. 2) At exactly 240V.

Of course you're never going to have exactly 240.0V so your original question isn't even numerically valid . Higher voltage and it's going to suck more power. Or if lower voltage, lower power. And thus that would change your amperage ratings, (but you blindly calculated those at 240V, no?).

If you turned on ALL 4 burners at once, AND turned on the oven on full blast, I would expect your breaker to trip. Odds of that happening? Just about zero.

Even on thansgiving with a houseful of people, the oven is going off and on with the thermostat (hopefully), the burner with the gravy is hardly ever coming on, and so on. Maybe if you really tried you could get it to draw 49A if you wanted. You would really have to try.
Right, just a blind 240V calculation. Perhaps a good term would be theoretical max. Makes sense though with regard to reaching that amount. So, with the old appliances it would be difficult to hit 40A, but with the new ones (with a theoretical max of 66A) it would probably be pretty easy. Microwave @ full, oven turns on, 2-3 burners on (sounds like a semi-typical evening of cooking), and I trip the breaker.

Originally Posted by core
As for your 120V breakers being "fused in pairs", that's a new one for me. Breakers will be "fused" together to insure they are on different legs, but I've not personally seen independent 120V ones "fused" together. Maybe they build 'em differently these days. Probably would be an improvement; these Wal-Mart builder jobs I've seen lately are terribly imbalanced and I know the builders don't care.
My apologies if "fused" is the wrong term (I'm sure it is). I was simply referring to each pair (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, & 9/10) having one of the plastic bars connecting them (double pole?).

Ugh... these are the types of things you don't think of when doing your own remodel. In my way of thinking, new means consumes LESS power, not MORE! I think I'm just going to have him come over and inspect everything. I'm installing a hot water heater in the kitchen as well (120V, 1.5kW), so I'm going to need a new circuit for that as well.

Thanks again! I'll report back with his inspection results!
 
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Old 07-25-10, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jjglaze77
So, with the old appliances it would be difficult to hit 40A, but with the new ones (with a theoretical max of 66A) it would probably be pretty easy. Microwave @ full, oven turns on, 2-3 burners on (sounds like a semi-typical evening of cooking), and I trip the breaker.
I just re-read all the previous posts. Yes, after adding the microwave on the same circuit, you have no option but to run a new circuit. I certainly didn't mean to imply that you could get away with anything less. That microwave did you in.


Originally Posted by jjglaze77
My apologies if "fused" is the wrong term (I'm sure it is). I was simply referring to each pair (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, & 9/10) having one of the plastic bars connecting them (double pole?).
Taking a closer look at your photo, yeah I see those are just the double pole "business" breakers you have. As an aside, those are way more modern than the 1900's era stuff I have -- it looks like there is a break in the plastic bar -- is it possible to trip only one side manually?
 
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Old 07-25-10, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by core
I just re-read all the previous posts. Yes, after adding the microwave on the same circuit, you have no option but to run a new circuit. I certainly didn't mean to imply that you could get away with anything less. That microwave did you in.
Makes sense. Thanks!

Originally Posted by core
Taking a closer look at your photo, yeah I see those are just the double pole "business" breakers you have. As an aside, those are way more modern than the 1900's era stuff I have -- it looks like there is a break in the plastic bar -- is it possible to trip only one side manually?
I don't think so. In the times I've turned them on/off, I've tried switching just one of the switches and the other moves as well, every time. Home was built in '78.

I'm a little miffed at the store clerk because he literally told me I didn't need to do anything and walked away... LOL. I ran a wire last night for the water heater and I could have used the same path for the new cooktop wire, but I guess I'll have to do it all again. The path from the box to kitchen is relatively simple. In the picture of the whole kitchen, you can see where the dishwasher goes in the upper right. I brought the other line in right there. To get to the cooktop, I'd need to go under the sink and through a cabinet or 2. For the portion under the sink, does the cable need to be in metal conduit/tubing? Also, after re-reading everything, I'm still not clear if I need to run 8/2 or 8/3 cable to the cooktop?

Thanks!
 
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Old 07-25-10, 07:17 PM
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I'm still not clear if I need to run 8/2 or 8/3 cable to the cooktop?
Your cooktop is 240 volt 3 wire. All you need is 8-2. Where will you put the breaker, the panel is full now.
 
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Old 07-25-10, 07:37 PM
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I'm a tad bit confused as to what your doing. What is happening with the old cook top house wiring (the 40 amp circuit) ??

The micro-wave / oven combination needs a 120/240 volt circuit. You will have to run a new branch circuit for that unit.

As Joe pointed out you do not have anymore space in your panel unless you have an un-used double-pole breaker. So you have to solve that issue.

Can you clear my confusion up for me?
 
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Old 07-25-10, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CasualJoe
Where will you put the breaker, the panel is full now.
Well, I'm assuming there are ways to expand (sub-panels)? I'll let the electrician figure that out. As a rule, I don't do any work to the box, but I'll try just about everything inside. If I run the lines / add outlets / make connections inside, all he has to do is make the connections at the box (and therefore charge me much less).
 
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Old 07-25-10, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jjglaze77
Well, I'm assuming there are ways to expand (sub-panels)? I'll let the electrician figure that out. As a rule, I don't do any work to the box, but I'll try just about everything inside. If I run the lines / add outlets / make connections inside, all he has to do is make the connections at the box (and therefore charge me much less).
Has he allowed you to do that in the past? It's something I never allow from a homeowner. Once I touch the wiring the liability becomes mine so i want to make sure the rest of the wiring doesn't burn the house down....
 
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Old 07-25-10, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruto
I'm a tad bit confused as to what your doing. What is happening with the old cook top house wiring (the 40 amp circuit) ??

The micro-wave / oven combination needs a 120/240 volt circuit. You will have to run a new branch circuit for that unit.

As Joe pointed out you do not have anymore space in your panel unless you have an used double-pole breaker. So you have to solve that issue.

Can you clear my confusion up for me?
The original cooktop and oven were installed on the same 40A circuit. The way the house is setup, it is MUCH easier to run a new line to the cooktop as opposed to the oven/micro. So, I'm going to leave the oven/micro on the original 40A (as is currently installed by an electrician), and run a new line to the cooktop. As stated in my previous response, as to the spacing problem in the box (being out of space) I will not be figuring that out. That is for my electrician to do.

Perhaps what is throwing you is that the microwave is literally connected through the oven. Before I set it in the cabinet I looked and found that on the top of the oven (directly below the micro) there is a standard duplex outlet and the micro is plugged into it. The original 40A circuit is currently powering that unit (oven/micro) with no problems. I had an electrician make that connection because I'm not particularly patient working with such low gauge wire. However, at no time since installing the new oven/micro has there been anything else on that 40A circuit. We just got the countertops and I am therefore just now trying to add the cooktop and am realizing that a new line needs to be run. Seeing as a) the oven/micro works on existing wire with no issues, b) a licensed electrician connected it, and c) it's VERY difficult to run line to the oven cabinet, there should be no problem adding the new circuit for the cooktop, correct?
 
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Old 07-25-10, 08:18 PM
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Perhaps what is throwing you is that the microwave is literally connected through the oven. Before I set it in the cabinet I looked and found that on the top of the oven (directly below the micro) there is a standard duplex outlet and the micro is plugged into it. The original 40A circuit is currently powering that unit (oven/micro) with no problems. I had an electrician make that connection because I'm not particularly patient working with such low gauge wire.
That is what I was afraid of .. your electrician is using the bare equipment ground in the house wiring as the neutral for the microwave. That works but is a big code violation.
 
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Old 07-25-10, 08:56 PM
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Your old cooktop cable is NM type so the bare is listed for equipment ground only not to be used for neutral.

 
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Old 07-25-10, 11:13 PM
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I did read the specs on wall oven with microwave oven unit as one unit you denfity need 4 conductor cable you can not use the exsting one at all. { it kinda pretty rare to find straight 240 volt microwave oven for resdential side }

The cooktop unit it is not a issue due you have straght 240 volt connection

Have your electrician figure out what the plans to do the exsting panel as I know you show us in the photo and FPE is not my favour item there are too many reports about the issue so that something you will have to plan not too far in future to replace it.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 07-29-10, 09:23 AM
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Final Result

After discussing things with my electrician, we came up with a solution that is both cost effective and 85-90% code compliant I will say that after mentioning several things from this thread, he laughed and said that it was overkill (like replacing the whole breaker box). Perhaps I should have mentioned in my OP that I live in the boondocks of Oklahoma... That should explain his (minorly) lax approach to being code-compliant to the very last letter. (Insert Oklahoma jokes here. I am not native and have no problem with a few good Okie jokes, LOL!)

Anyways... after a full day of utter torment, I was able to run a new 6/3 cable to the oven cabinet. I'm proud to say that the only destruction I had to do was cutout another piece of sheetrock from inside the cabinet and remove the oven to accomplish this. To connect the cooktop, we used the existing 8/2 cable that was already run from the oven to the cooktop. After doing that, he came over and upgraded the oven/cooktop circuit to 50A. So it looks like this:

|50A|
...|
...|
...|
6/3+Gr
...|
...|----------8/2+Gr------
...|..............................|
Oven/Micro................Cooktop

I guess it's not 100% ideal, but it's better than what was existing, yes? Obviously, we wanted to separate the oven & cooktop, but the spacing is what killed that.

On a note relating to the spacing in my panel, I needed a new 20A circuit for a small hot water heater in the kitchen and he was able to add that as well. If you look at the picture of the box, in the space the old 40A breaker took up in slots 9/10, there is now a 50A breaker and a 20A breaker.

Thanks for all the replies!
 
 

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