Moisture level in carpet?


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Old 07-18-15, 06:30 PM
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Moisture level in carpet?

Will preface this by saying that I'm a relative newbie with home repair/maintenance (in first home only 2 years) and I hope this is not a ridiculous question.

My question is whether or not there is a "normal" or acceptable level of moisture in carpet? Some background...

We live in a high ranch, where the bottom floor is half below grade. Owing to a high water table in the area and the fact this the house wasn't maintained a lick by the former residents, we have had CONSTANT water issues downstairs, mostly with water coming in through cracks in the concrete walls separating the backyard from the finished rooms inside. Carpet in two different rooms has had to be ripped up around 5 times each, and eventually replaced around 4 months ago. Outside was re-waterproofed and flaws in the walls were repaired.

I'm starting to suspect that the water is now coming UP through the slab and seeping into the padding that's underneath the carpet. There's no apparent smell, but I swear the carpet feels damp (not wet, just cold and damp). But I honestly cant tell it's it's just cold from being on the slab or legitimately wet underneath. I bought a General Tools Pin-Type Moisture Meter (Model MM1E), and it is reading around 14% throughout the two rooms.

So, it there a "normal" moisture level that I'd expect to detect on this type of meter? If so, what would that be, and should I be concerned with what I am reading? The local water remediation company tells me there is either moisture or none, but I suspect they just want to come in and try to get a job.

I've tried to cover everything here. Am I missing anything? Does anyone have any insight?
 
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Old 07-18-15, 06:58 PM
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You don't want any moisture, in the carpet. At least I wouldn't want any. I don't think that it's healthy. If you have a high water table, moisture will always be there. If you don't want to replace the carpet with another type of flooring, I suggest that you buy a rug shampoo machine, the extractor type. Hoover makes some nice machines that are sold at Walmart & other places. It can be used as an extractor only if you don't want to shampoo the carpet every time. Buy one of the models that has the upholstery attachment, in case you want to clean couches & mattresses. They work great.
 
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Old 07-19-15, 05:42 AM
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I agree with Pulpo that ideally you want no apparant moisture in your carpet.

When I am performing a home inspection, moisture meters can tell me a lot about a home's building envelope. A reading of 14% wouldn't necessarily throw up a red flag, and is most likely the result of installing carpet on a slab below grade. The rule of thumb is that moisture levels that exceed 20% are when you have a problem. At this point building materials may begin to rot with extended exposure, and an inspector will state that you have a "condition conducive to mold growth"

I would test various parts of the room to see if the reading is constant throughout, or localized in one area. Determining this may help you identify a larger issue.

If the home wasn't maintained, check that you have positive grade around your exterior walls.

If you plan on changing the carpet and can tolerate building up your floor height, you may want to install a foam and plywood subfloor over the slab. When done correctly it will make the space more comfortable.....
 
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Old 07-19-15, 06:06 AM
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You've had to replace the carpet 5 times and your still trying to install it again, HMM.
Unless that moisture issue is 100% under control I'd hold off on any flooring.
 
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Old 07-19-15, 10:51 AM
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Moisture moves from wet to dry, so lacking a perfect vapor barrier under the slab, continuous to the outside and up the foundation wall, the moisture below the slab will always be migrating right through the concrete to reach your carpet.Since you can't change the vapor management below the slab, next best approach is to manage the moisture as it passes through. Carpet and especially padding are not high on the list for good options for basement floors. As Perry suggested, they do make raised ventilated floor systems, but i have not direct experience with them.

Test your meter on an upstairs carpet, one without concrete below it. It should read close to dry.

You also mention the floor feels cool. A cool floor and warm humid air can result in condensation. Pick up a humidity meter (inexpensive one will do) and read the RH and temp right at the floor level. Then, but a towel over the meter so the reading is closer to the actual carpet moisture and temperature level.

Bud
 
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Old 07-20-15, 05:18 AM
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Thanks to all for your comments. With regards to joecaption's comment, the issues we've had in the past resulted from water coming in through outside walls (that were not properly waterproofed), running along an unfinished floor that abuts the rooms, and going into the carpet under the sheet rock. We have since corrected these issues by having the outside properly waterproofed and graded, and having the inside of the walls/unfinished floor repaired with new concrete and silicone treatment. So, theoretically no new water is coming in through the walls.

My concern lies in the fact that, in the unfinished part, we did observe water swelling up through old/poorly maintained concrete, so I'm now nervous that this is happening in other areas that we can't see. I agree with comments that tile flooring may have been a better idea down here, but 1) we have a young child in the house, and we didn't feel like that would be very safe, and 2) one of the rooms I'm discussing is a playroom, which had to be carpeted. Also, we've already spent a hefty sum of money getting and maintaining this carpet, and really arent inclined right now to re-do the whole thing. Plus, the prior tenants had carpet down here so I really didnt think much of it at the time (now, however, I know how little they probably cared about the house).

I am going to test other areas off the room and an area of upstairs carpet that is not over the slab. I will post results and welcome any additional feedback. Thanks all!
 
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Old 07-20-15, 05:24 AM
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Joe, in your original post, you mentioned a high water table. In your last post, you said that the foundation issues were all corrected. Usually, a high water table can't be controlled by sealing the foundation. Do you really have a high water table? How far do you have to dig to hit water?
 
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Old 07-20-15, 05:35 AM
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Pulpo..sorry, I realize what I wrote was a bit unclear. To clarify, the outside walls around the perimeter of the house were waterproofed about 4 months ago. Additionally, some work was done on the inside of the concrete walls, where available. The work we had done did not specifically address or fix any foundation issues.

With reference to your question about the water table and digging down to find water, the short answer is "I don't know." We have been told as much by numerous landscapers and by the waterproofing company, as well as anecdotally from neighbors about the water table in the area. The structure of the house, having it's bottom floor half below-grade, obviously doesnt help matters either.

I hope this helps clarify some of my earlier comments.
 
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Old 07-20-15, 06:14 AM
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The short answer of "I don't know" clarifies a lot. I see that you are in NY too. Most of the houses in the suburbs of NYC have a full floor below grade. I suggest that you dig on the side of the house that has the problem, to find the water table. The hole doesn't have to be wide at all. It will take 2 hours or less. Start with a shovel & a typical post hole digger. Rent or buy the other type that spins with a T handle & extension. Don't depend on what the others told you.

I had two jobs like that, for an architect. He needed to find the water table. One was for insurance questions. The other was to decide if a cellar could be used in the design or not. After you have that information, we can suggest how to proceed.
 
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Old 07-27-15, 06:13 PM
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Sorry for the slow reply here, but I did want to follow up with some info I've uncovered in the past week. Will try to consolidate:
-- Had the landscaper to the house the other day to work on an unrelated issue. According to him, the water table in the neighborhood is "very low" and that in his year working in the area, he's never dug down and hit water.

-- The landscaper added that most of the water issues that people in the area experience stem from improper pitch, bad/old waterproofing, and the high concentration of clay in the soil (very little sand, so the ground doesn't drain well, the water just sits.

-- Checked moisture reading in a carpeted room upstairs that sits over hardwood/subfloor. The meter returned moisture contents of 5-14%, similar to spots in the downstairs rooms that are not directly adjacent to the recent areas of concern.

--We have 1 zone A/C and - prior to moving into the home - had 3 vents run downstairs from the air handler (in the attac). However, there is no main a/c return downstairs.

So...

I'm thinking that the damp "feeling" in the carpet downstairs (and meter readings) stem from the coolness emanating from the slab below, combined with inadequate humidity control in the house. I should further mention that there is no musty or mildew smell on either floor of the house.

Would appreciate any comments or questions that might help me remedy the moisture situation. Thank you.
 
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Old 08-25-15, 02:37 PM
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Just curious if there is anything new on this. I had a good amount of work done on my crawlspace. I'm monitoring/observing humidity levels at my house. That's why I'm curious to get a follow up.
 
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Old 08-31-15, 04:13 AM
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Thanks for the follow up and sorry again for the delayed response. Believe it or not, we are still dealing with air conditioning issues in the house, which has made it hard to focus on much else.

However, I do now believe that the "feel" of moisture in the carpet was due to a number of environmental issues, and not water actively leaking in through the foundation. Why I think this is the case:
1) we have had a number of extremely heavy/soaking rains since my first post, and I have not noticed the carpet moisture levels being any better or worse as a result

2) Seeing as the carpet is on top of a slap that's below grade, I think that it will always have that cool feel, regardless of how much padding is down

3) Our home is intended to have single zone A/C (upstairs), though we had 3 registers sent downstairs (through a closet) to try to get a little more airflow down there. However, since there is no main return downstairs, the humidity is going to run a little higher. At the moment, we are looking into installing a dehumidifier in a downstairs window to assist with the moisture management.


I will try to keep updating as we progress and learn more. Any feedback, advice, or questions would be helpful.
 
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Old 08-31-15, 04:22 AM
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Seeing as the carpet is on top of a slap that's below grade, I think that it will always have that cool feel, regardless of how much padding is down
How about a moisture test? For a short time I worked flood damage & we had a tool that beeped when moisture was present. There are probably tools that would give you a reading, as well. It's more than a "cool feel".
 
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Old 08-31-15, 07:14 AM
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Hi Joe, you have referenced "water" as your moisture issue, yet water is only part of the moisture issue, the one we see. Moisture vapor is the other and it passes through concrete with ease. Where water tends to follow gravity, moisture vapor can wick up through the floor and footings to heights exceeding 100 feet.

Your efforts to control the water sound reasonable, but there will still be moisture vapor and that must be managed. If the flow of moisture vapor is blocked the moisture level on the wet side will equalize with the source, the ground outside. Any mold food from dust to wood behind a vapor barrier will encourage the growth of mold. Mold spores are everywhere, just feed and water them and they grow.

A carpet that is very vapor open will allow whatever moisture coming up through the floor to dry to the inside. From there you must control the humidity level in the basement with ac or a dehumidifier.

Some reading: Understanding Basements | Building Science Corporation

Bud
 
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Old 09-05-15, 05:06 PM
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Wow...great insights, thank you all so much

How about a moisture test? For a short time I worked flood damage & we had a tool that beeped when moisture was present. There are probably tools that would give you a reading, as well. It's more than a "cool feel".
I picked up a General moisture meter tht has a "hi" and "low" LED readout. It's intended for general contracting materials, but the water remediation company locally told me that you can use it to get a useful reading, since it has 2 pin-like probes. Ideally, reading would be 0%. Im getting reading of between 12-14%, both in the areas of concern, as well as in other areas of the room. This number has not spiked following several heavy rains recently, so if seems like that reading is a product of environmental moisture, moreso than swelling ground water.

Hi Joe, you have referenced "water" as your moisture issue, yet water is only part of the moisture issue, the one we see. Moisture vapor is the other and it passes through concrete with ease. Where water tends to follow gravity, moisture vapor can wick up through the floor and footings to heights exceeding 100 feet.
I had no clue that this was something to be concerned about. In retrospect, the idea to put plush carpet and padding on a below-grade concrete slab was probably not a great one. But we have young kids and our first house and , well, here we are. We specifically chose carpet that best resists bacteria and mold growth (it's synthetic blend, not cotton, and was selected only after many discussions with the manufacturer and money dollars out of pocket). I'm hoping this helps us attend to the issue youve mentioned, additional to the steps we are already planning on taking.
 
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Old 09-05-15, 07:07 PM
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Even is the moisture isn't caused by water entering through the foundation, I don't think that it's a good idea to have the children playing, on the carpet. If you have a wet vac or a shampoo machine, run it over the carpet. See if it sucks any water out of it.
 
 

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