Puron or freon

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  #1  
Old 05-03-07, 02:48 PM
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Puron or freon

If I were to buy a completely new system should I go with a Puron based or
a Freon based system. Someone told me that since freon will be phased
out of newly manufactured units by 2010 that its cost will go through the
roof. Others tell me that freon will still be used widely for about 10 years
after that and that the Puron systems dont last as long because puron
requires twice as high pressurization and so these systems wear out quicker.
Whose right?
 
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  #2  
Old 05-03-07, 04:44 PM
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6 one way half dozen the other! Id stick to 22. Some people(like me) might have one or two drums I mean skids around thinking we could retire like when 12 was gone. But they did it wright this time will make some but not worth having to move this stuff all the time so i can work on my cars. Any body need a skid $250 you hall!!!
 
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Old 05-03-07, 05:07 PM
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Well, Niether

I think your talking about buying a new R-22 system or a new R-410A system.
True R-22 system will be out of production in 2010. But R-22 will be around untill 2030 in the USA. Google r-22 phase out and click the EPA link.

Puron is only a trademark or brand name for R-410A from Carrier. They also have Puron 22. Don't be fooled when salesmen tell you how great puron is. 22 is 22 and 410A is 410A, no matter what they call it. You could say it's liquid gold money saver but it would still be refrigerant.

You could buy 30 pounds of 22 now for around $100, 25 pounds of 410A for around $200 - $230. As the price of 22 goes up 410A will come down.

As far as units go, the coils are the same. But compressors Expansion vavles and driers are different. They are made to handle the higher operating pressures.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about 410A. My boss even sent me to a "410A certification" class. I said he was nuts and that you don't need any special certification as the main differances are A) higher pressures, B) different oil, and C) you can only charge liquid. But he spent the money anyway and I broght him proof that he got ripped off.

All that was just info for you to have more of a clue my friend.

If you are finally considering our sound advise to change the whole system, then stick with R-22 like you have know. Mainly because R-22 will be around long after the life of the new system you put in. And this is only a rental. But also because 410A equipment costs more AND if you switch you WILL have to change the lineset.

Changing the lineset (because of different oils used with the 2 refrigerants (can't mix them, major problems)) would be very time consuming and cost a butt load. And, if the indoor unit is in the attic you might end up with a linset running through a gutter downspout down the houses outside wall.

Change the system like we told you but at this point, especially on a rental, stick with R-22. The extra cost isn't worth it.

If we were talking about the house you and she who must be obeyed were going to live in for the next 50 years, I'd say yes go with the 410A.

Chris
 
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Old 05-03-07, 05:10 PM
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Smile With you Airman

I've got 7 jugs of 22 in the shed just in case I can make a profit on the $65 each I spent. Still have some 12 ounce cans of 12 two.

Chris
 
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Old 05-03-07, 07:03 PM
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yOU DON'T WON'T TO KNOW WHAT I DID WITH MY 12! RUGER 308.
 
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Old 05-03-07, 07:38 PM
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I still have a 30lb can of 12 still sealed from dupont. That baby is worth gold.
 
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Old 05-03-07, 07:58 PM
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Wink

One other thing not said here On the R410a system if you have a leak and half gets out. You cant top it off. You have to pull it all out of the unit and recovery that old R410a. Refill the system with all new R410a.
Now as R410a is a mix of freons. R 32 and R125. You dont have R410a there that you took out . So now no one will take it to clean as with the R22. So now what do we do with all the old R410a????????

So dont forget if you see the tech with a ROSE colored refrigerant drum in his hand thats just about pure GOLD there.
 
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Old 05-04-07, 04:35 AM
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Hey Ed,

You know I have a couple of jugs of the rose stuff (R-502, a commercial low temp refrigerant) and although some think it's worth a ton it really aint!

In commercial refrigeration systems because they tend to use large amounts of refrigerants in a system, if you charge much more than the going price for the comparable alternate gas you might as well pull the ozone depleting stuff and just convert the system..

There may be a black market in this stuff with gas-and-go guys but when systems are maintained you seldom have small leaks that need topping up.

And, with the success I've had using MP-39 with no oil change in small units as recommended by Dupont, to me the R-12 is not much of a brick of gold either.

So, in answer to the original question, I'd stick with R-22 for now.
 
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Old 05-04-07, 01:55 PM
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So R-22 wins over 410A to use the correct terminology

The fact that you can't top off 410A seems like a big
disadvange pocket book-wise. Would someone with an
EPA cert, qualified to buy it, be wise to buy a few
cannisters of R-22 and stash it for future use if
he has an R-22 based system? Is it possible to keep
it around or does it need to be in a certain enviro-
ment or is it dangerous to keep around? Thanks for
the precious info guys.
 
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Old 05-04-07, 02:43 PM
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Personally I don't think it would be worth it, especially someone that works in the industry.

This way of thinking was quite common in the early days of the elimination of CFC's but at least in my area the replacement refrigerants were competetive with people's stashes of Freon.
Yes, you would have bought cheap but anyone doing so would expect to make a premium on selling it at a higher price.
Problem is you could buy the replacement refrigerant and sell it to a customer at a fair mark-up and have them pay a similar price to the obsolete gas.

In commercial circles the ones that did this are often viewed as opportunist as it is usually in the customers best interest to switch to a conversion gas as soon as possible.

There are some cases where a small amount is needed to top up a system after a leak repair and it can be somewhat expensive to convert, but like I said a well maintained system is fairly trouble free.

This applies to commercial work where an average system will hold 25 pounds, for anything residential storing refrigerant for future use would make less sense yet beacause you are only talking a couple of pounds at best.

As far as the future of R-22 I suspect that when it is phased out they will have a replacement.
Commercial systems use very large amounts.
An 84 ton Trane I installed in our hospital takes over 200 pounds to fill so I seriously doubt that the mfr's will leave every current user hanging.
 
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Old 05-04-07, 03:17 PM
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Wink

The R 22 will be made till 2030. Even after that a tech can recover the old R22 in your unit and clean it if need be and put it back in your AC

R-22 R-502 R-12 R-11 R-113 R-500 R-134a R-123 R-407C

R-410A R-408A R-409A R-404A R-401A MP39 R-401B MP66 R-402A MP80

R-402B MP81 R-507 R-416A R-414B (Hot Shot*) Special Combination Orders

Gregh I had hope that the color came through for the freons up there. My books say ROSE tank for R410a but 410a and 502 color are so close . look out is all I can say. Didnt check the shop cost. I know they are lower but here on the web.

R 502 30lb $540 R410a 25lb $260 R22 30 lb $102
Might want to sell the 502

Also you have to try and pull down lower than 500 microns for the R410a. Anytime you open the system you should check the oil and put a new drier in all the time.
Ill say thats my .04 cents ED
 
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Old 05-04-07, 03:47 PM
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My shop has about 12 drums of R-11 we have not had a need for it in yrs.
 
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Old 05-04-07, 05:38 PM
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I guess I'll be first to answer sugarbexar's question

sugarbexar, good thought. But, there is always a but, could be wasted money. If your system is installed correctly you shouldn't have a problem. For years and years.

And it'll sit some where for years untill you need a few ounces or a pound.

Just watch the install. Nitrogen must be bleed through the stystem while brazing copper.

It must hold pressure for 30 minutes. It has to be eavacuated to 500 microns and not rise 200 microns with in 20 minutes. To ensure the system is "tight".

Passing those tests why buy a jug of R-22?

Chris
 
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Old 05-07-07, 12:48 PM
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So with a good install it should last forever

Thanks Jarredsdad. Hey I hear little Jarred doesn't
get dinner till he completes his daily copper tube
braising exercise.
 
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Old 05-07-07, 07:31 PM
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Jarreds Dad hasn't taught him to braze yet.

But I have taught him to do things right. Doing things wrong especially when you know it is a waste of time.

Expect an honest days pay for an honest days work. Money isn't always the best pay for your your work. Sometimes it'ss knowledge, or satisfaction, or just a warm fuzzy by helping someone who needs and deserves it.

I used to love going to a homeowners house who thought I was going to write another big bill to "fix" the geothermal heat pump they had just installed. When they asked what my visit was going to cost I could say "Nothing, I'm here to fix it and make you happy"

Chris
 
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