Replaced and still not cooling!


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Old 08-21-07, 01:47 PM
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Replaced and still not cooling!

OK, I will try to make this a short as possible.
1. I know I didn't replace entire unit as same time.
2. I replaced outside unit approx. 2 years ago--3 ton 10 seer.
3. Old unit was over 20yrs old.--I asked if the new unit would be enough to
cool house--(better than old unit).-I was told even better.
4. I also was in a bind financially and told ac tech that it may take me up to 2 years to afford to replace inside unit.===Tech said it would be fine.
5. I had a freon leak on the inside unit-= tech just said to add freon once or twice a year until I could replace inside unit.
6. The old unit (when freon was added--cooled house fine).
7. The tech came to replace old unit--took out of his truck what I thought was a little bitty unit (in size). I was shocked and ask if this would do the job as it was so small.---was told that technology has changed since my old unit a lot and that it would do just fine.--after questioning more I accepted answer --it was reasonable explaination.
8. I finally got the new inside unit installed---approx. the 2yrs. I had said.
9. new inside unit was installed by another company---the other company quit servicing my area.
10. The air conditioning now cools at night---days get up to 82degrees inside.
11. From Texas---outside temps were low as a lot (whole lot--full month) of rain at about 85---now it is getting close to 100 degrees at 84 inside.
12. Do I have any recourse at all here? I have spent over $4000 and air conditioner is worse than 20 yr old unit.
13. Have tried to talk with outside unit installer---and even company rep.- so far every one blames everybody else.

Thanks,
Glenn
 
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Old 08-21-07, 02:44 PM
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Find a different technician and have them look it over. They may be able to tell you exactly what is wrong.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough information to give an intelligent answer. I could speculate that the new condensing unit may be smaller (tonnage, not physical dimensions) than the old one. Newer condensing units have increased in dimensional size for the same tonnage of cooling. Bigger coils equals better heat transfer and higher efficiency. The fact that your newer condenser is smaller, raises some concern.
 
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Old 08-21-07, 03:47 PM
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What is the make and model of the outdoor unit?

What is the BTU of the new and old unit?

May not have a matching coil with the outdoor unit, or wrong meter device.
 
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Old 08-21-07, 09:40 PM
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More info

I am not at home at the moment, but here is a little more info about it.

The new unit is a frigidaire (made by nordyne, I think).
Will have to look for btu when I get home ==post later.

I don't remember now what the old unit was. Will have to check on that info.

The new unit inside is a Bryant.

I do know that they are not matched units.(In seers). The outside unit when installed was a 10 seer. The inside unit installed is a 13 seer i think due to the law about nothing below 13 now.

I have had minimum 4 visits I think since inside unit installed this april.

The first one said---" nothing wrong with unit--but hot air coming down walls from attic into space under unit is problem.

Put in insulation in area under unit and sealed off (put up paneling over insulation).--still too hot

Next guy--(from company that installed inside unit) said "nothing wrong or can't find anything"

Next guy-from company that replaced outside unit " overtime or extra pay cuz he came from outta town--they dont service anymore my area. Said " when they (other company) installed inside unit---they forgot to install a hard start kit", that is your problem".

So, while he was there he installed the "hard start kit" and added some freon for good measure.

Still HOT!!!!!!

After talking with nordyne representative---he was going to send someone different out---at my expense of course.

This tech--looks at unit---does a step off of the house on outside---says that unit is not big enough for the house.
I asked why my old unit cooled the house fine?---ask all of them that? No one can give an answer to that.

Talked with nordyne rep. again---he basically said it was up to installer of outside unit if they wanted to do anything about it---that the unit installed was not big enough for the house according to the tech.

Now---no one doing anything and I am out $4000 plus.

My house is 1374sq./ft. with 2 car garage probably about 18-1900sq./ft.
Yes, there are vents in garage. It cooled house before--i see no reason to close them now.

I have closed garage vents, bathroom vents(2) laundry room vents---STILL HOT!

I asked about matching the units--install a 13 seer outside unit--would that cure or help problem??????
Their answer---may help little---but unit is too small---you should go with 4-5 ton units.

I think someone messed up here. Yes, maybe me some. But I am not a air conditioning expert. The first guy to install outside unit should have been more knowledgeable about what size to use---etc.
I only agreed to unit because he said it would do fine.

More info on btu's later.
Thanks,
Glenn
 
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Old 08-22-07, 05:56 AM
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Where are you out of??

Why in the world do you want to waste energy on cooling that HOT garage?

Most city code does NOT allow any type of vents in garages.. Cap them off and advoid any fumes and CO issues into the home.
 
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Old 08-23-07, 03:15 PM
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stat pag3

Below is the spec page about my unit. It is a Frigidaire made by Nordyne. 3 ton 10 seer.

Outside Unit:
Overview
Model Number: FS3BA-036KA System Configuration: split
Brand: FRIGIDAIRE Condenser Type: air-cooled
Manufacturer: NORDYNE Voltage: 230 and 208
ARI Type Code: RCU-A-C Phase: 1


Efficiency Measures
Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating (SEER): 10
SEER is the most commonly used measure of a residential central air conditioner's efficiency. The SEER is the ratio of cooling capacity of the unit relative to the amount of electricity input, normalized for the changing demands over the cooling season. Thus, the higher the value of the SEER the more efficient the unit. (The most efficient air conditioners have a SEER of 14 or 15.) New air conditioners must have a SEER of at least 10 to be sold in the United States.

If you are purchasing a residential furnace, you should compare air conditioners efficiencies using the SEER.


Inputs to Calculate the SEER:
SEER Cooling Capacity: 37.6 BTUH
SEER Electrical Input: 3.54 watt-hours
Degradation Coefficient: 0.08


Energy Efficiency Rating (EER): 9.1
The EER is the most commonly used measure of air conditioner efficiency for non-residential central air conditioners. Although the SEER gives a more accurate estimate of the seasonal efficiency of the unit, SEER is not typically calculated for non-residential units.

The SEER is the simple ratio of the cooling capacity (in BTUH) to the electrical input (in watt-hours). It is therefore a steady-state measure, meaning that it does not take into account the inefficiencies that generally occur during startup and shutdown, when the unit is not operating at full capacity.


Integrated Part Load Value (IPLV): Not Available
The IPLV measures the efficiency of air conditioners under partial load.


Coil Model Number: C3B(A/H)-036(C/U)-B
The condenser coil is one of the highest energy consuming components of an air conditioning system. Thus, selecting a highly efficient central air conditioner often requires that the model have an efficient model of condenser coil.

You probably do not need to worry about the particular model of condenser coil when you purchase a central air conditioner -- instead, pay attention to the efficiency measures such as SEER and EER. We include coil model numbers because you may need them when repairing a central air conditioner and/or applying for a central air conditioner rebate.




Capacity Measures
Cooling Capacity: 34,600 BTUs / hour
The number of BTUs per hour of heat that the unit is capable of removing from the air when running at a steady state. (That is, when it has finished startup and is running at full power.)

A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is the quantity of heat required to raise 1 pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit.


Electrical Input: 3,781 watts per hour
The electrical input in watts required to operate the air conditioner for an hour at its full cooling capacity.

A single watt is equal to 1/746 horsepower.


Inside Unit is:
Bryant Model: CNRVP3617ATAAAAA
 
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Old 08-23-07, 03:18 PM
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Why garage?

Originally Posted by Jay11J View Post
Where are you out of??

Why in the world do you want to waste energy on cooling that HOT garage?

Most city code does NOT allow any type of vents in garages.. Cap them off and advoid any fumes and CO issues into the home.
Well, I am in Texas. While the vents are usually closed off, sometimes I do open them to do some work etc.

Also, there is a possibility of closing in the garage area for another room etc.

The vents were installed when the house was built.

There has never been a problem cooling the house before.
 
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Old 08-23-07, 05:42 PM
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What temp is going into cold air return and what temp is coming out register close to handler unit?

Since techs have come to check your system out, I am presuming all the obvious stuff is working.
 
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Old 08-23-07, 06:12 PM
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3 tons is usually plenty for 1400 sq/ft, probably undersized if you want garage cool as well. I wouldn't put vents in the garage, to many fumes/hazards. Drop across the coil is the temperature measurement that really decides if a unit is working correctly. Was your old unit 3 ton? I think maybe the original outdoor unit was much larger than three ton. I've never seen a condenser get smaller when SEER moves up.
 
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Old 08-23-07, 09:10 PM
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old unit

Originally Posted by gremlin View Post
3 tons is usually plenty for 1400 sq/ft, probably undersized if you want garage cool as well. I wouldn't put vents in the garage, to many fumes/hazards. Drop across the coil is the temperature measurement that really decides if a unit is working correctly. Was your old unit 3 ton? I think maybe the original outdoor unit was much larger than three ton. I've never seen a condenser get smaller when SEER moves up.
Yes, the old unit was about 20 plus years old. It cooled fine other than when the coil inside started leaking freon.

Yes, it was a 3 Ton unit also. That is why I had no problem going with a 3 Ton on replacement. Talked with my neighbor today==his house approx. same size--he has 3 ton---said if he wanted it to be 68degrees inside===no problem at all.

My temp just after noon was 77inside and rising, and only because I had thermostat set at 73 during the night. Got up to about 80 this afternoon.

As far as garage, I would assume the fumes ya'll are worried about would be from the cars being in the garage. I do not have vehicles in garage at this time-==Using it for storage etc.

Now, the seer of outside unit was 3 ton 10 seer --- the new unit is also 3 ton and 10 seer------ the inside unit is 13 seer i think.

The new unit was actually smaller--much smaller than my old outside unit---this unit looks like for mobile home or something. My neighbors 3 ton unit is over twice as tall etc. much more fins for cooling etc.

As I said before ---the size of this thing shocked me when i first saw it---but was assured that it would do even better job than old unit.

I may take pics when I get home in morning and show the size of it and neighbors outside units.

I am just having real hard time understanding why old unit would cool, yet, a brand new system wont do the job ===and no one can seem to tell me why.

I did have one tech say that they had problems with those particular small units. Also, that the small unit was not really the same btu's as the old three ton unit===but somehow they was able to claim the new unit was three ton.

The unit does say 3 ton on it.
Thanks,
Glenn
 
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Old 08-24-07, 09:11 AM
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ac pics

ok, here are pics. The first is my neighbors 3 ton unit. It stands about 30 inches tall. Notice size in relation to gas meter.

Bottom pic is of my 3 ton unit. It stands about 22 1/2 inches tall. Again, notice size in relation to gas meter. The gas meters are approx. same height etc.

Pics here: http://www.webnetincome.com/ac.html
Thanks,
Glenn
 
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Old 08-24-07, 11:15 AM
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To further diagnose, a technician would have to measure superheat, subcooling, high & low side pressure, delta T over coil, outdoor air temp, indoor drybulb temp, and indoor wetbulb temp. Without this information, we are just guessing. Also, it's possible the install is part of the problem. Is the correct metering device being used? Is it a flowrater or txv? Was a vacuum pump used? Was a nitrogen purge done? What method was used to determine system charge? What about filter-driers, was the old one left in place?

To get to the bottom of the problem, it will likely take another tech and a fair amount of time to analyze the system. This is one of those cases that cannot be analyzed over the internet without the key data.
 
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Old 08-24-07, 09:15 PM
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updated pics and temps

Ok, I have few more stats. See pics here (It is my website--I am not trying to get folks to sign up or purchase anything---It is not even finished yet.---It is just real easy and fast for me to post pics on my website.--Thanks.)

More pics and temps etc. at link below:

http://www.webnetincome.com/ac.html

Also, inside unit is Bryant 3-Ton TVX Evaporator Coil, Bryant 70,000 BTU Gas Furnace--this according to my paperwork.

Oh, and the drain outside working fine. Have pic showing condensation on drain tube and cold air coming out of drain tube also.

Found some of this on the tech (service calls) paperwork.

One said--Amp draw total unit 10.1

Another:-- said before hard start kit added to outside unit: Found head pressure on cond. (cant read next word but think it says) out-- 350.
Unit tripping out on overload during heat of day.
Discharge line temp. on cond. too Hot.
Cond. is clean too.

Yet another said: --Test charge good. Test return to supply not good.
Checked at filter base 83degrees --at supply vent 64degrees giving 19degree split.
Unit pulling attic air into system. Advised customer to check for air leaks in attic.

And the Final check: said--Check a/c found 3 Ton system oon 1900 sq.ft. Found sub-cooling 8degrees added R-22 to 22degrees lowered superheat from 24 to 12degrees. Recommend 4 or 5 Ton system.

There were probably a couple more mixed in there--but I threw some of them away while doing some cleaning and packing etc.

Thanks,
Glenn
 
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Old 08-25-07, 06:12 AM
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What's the temp of the air coming out of vents in the heat of the day, say around noor or 2 pm?

Do you have good attic ventilation? Have you been up there to check the insulation around your vents, and to check for major air leaks from the vent piping. Also, check around the joints above the furnace (inside unit) for air leaks, and below it for suction of hot air into it. They did a bad job of sealing mine when I had it replaced.

When the ac is running, is the air blowing out the top of the outside unit (from the fan), noticibly warmer than the surrounding air? It should be.

Have you compared all the vents in your house? Any feel much warmer than the others?
 
 

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