Need to design/install complete HVAC package

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  #41  
Old 10-23-08, 03:09 PM
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Only gauges I have with a "normal range" are for 134A. Bought it because I couldn't find the auto adapters. Which I did find, once I used the new gauge and couldn't return it.
 

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  #42  
Old 10-27-08, 11:30 AM
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Why so much Anger?

Why is there so much anger here? It's not like there is only one air/con business in the world and I'm trying to take your revenue away. I think people need to relax and take it easy!

Haha, and I do agree with most of you. I'd probably do all the heavy lifting myself and hire the butt crack guy for the final connection and final refill/recharge.

People, please don't be so and go have a ice cold beer! Beer 4U2

By the way, It's been a month and a half because it's not that important, it's only an a/c unit! I live in Los Angeles, I can open my window and use a fan and achieve almost the same result! Hahahaha It's almost November now. hmmmmmm.... I might not even think about it until next summer!
 

Last edited by philipk2003; 10-27-08 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Update
  #43  
Old 10-27-08, 02:13 PM
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Good idea. If your lucky the Dems will have the White House, Senate, and House and your repair will be 3 times as much as if you had done it now.
 
  #44  
Old 10-27-08, 03:06 PM
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I'm not angry and I don't see any other respondent in this thread that seems to be angry, at least not to anyone posting.

I learned the hands-on part of refrigeration work when I was in my early twenties. We didn't have the laws way back then that exist today and so we didn't have to have much more than a halide torch and a manifold gauge set. More often than not we just used the compressor as a vacuum pump and purged the system with dry nitrogen until we thought it was good enough and then added the refrigerant. We'd purge to atmosphere or sometimes into a bucket of water so we could see the bubbles. It was pretty much a seat-of-the-pants operation. If a system lost a bit of refrigerant over the course of a year we simply added more until it ran satisfactorily. We didn't worry about SEER (because there was no such thing) or ozone depletion. Freon was cheap and so was electricity.

In my mid twenties I learned much more about the physics of refrigeration systems and the design of HVAC. I even designed a few systems and oversaw the installations. Since that time I have also learned that properly designed and installed systems are the exception rather than the norm. Residential cooling was still fairly new at that time, at least using central systems instead of window bangers. Even the popular do-it-yourself magazines often had articles on how to build your own window A/C units from an old belt-driven refrigerator condensing unit.

In the last ten, fifteen or twenty years the dangers of depleting the earth's ozone layer have come to light and it also became common knowledge that the chlorinated fluorocarbon refrigerants that we all thought were so safe were likely a contributing factor in the depletion of the ozone layer. The result was laws such as we now have were implemented.

I'll admit that I am not fully convinced that the problem with the ozone layer is/was a direct result of the misuse (and misuse it was) of chlorinated fluorocarbon refrigerants and I am not convinced that the laws restricting their use need to be so draconian. But the plain fact is that the laws do need to be obeyed until such time (if ever) they are relaxed.
 
  #45  
Old 03-18-09, 09:10 PM
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Alrighty then folks... well I just bloody did it! Today I finished installing the HVAC system that was designed for me by ductworks. It went smooth as silk (with a few stitches).. so I used the insulated ductboard on almost everything and I LOVE it! The small amount of tin knocking I had to do irritated me and normally bein such a cheap sod I am so glad I paid the extra money and worked with the insulated duct. It was so easy to put together and cut into for the takeoffs (ark at me I even sound like a HVAC exposed butt crack guy) :-)

So I have 3 zones controlled by 4 dampers (2 for the main upstairs zone and one for two seperate zones downstairs). I also have a static pressure damper to let air flow between the return duct and the supply plenum before the dampers that control the zones. I have a humidifier installed in the plenum and I have three proliphix NT150h thermostats to control it all. At some point I will put another post in here detailing all of the main parts and how I connected all the controls, dampers, electrical together. Right now I am feeling bewildered but I have faith in ductworks helping me through it and I have a real HVAC butt crack guy stood by ready to come and connect up the copper between the unit outside and the AHU, charge, check my handywork and do any fine tuning.

So right now I am a happy bunny. If anybody has done any multi zone work and using the proliphix controllers to control it all with the humidity system I sure would appreciate your input. My thought at the moment is that I somehow connect the thermostats to the dampers to open them and also connect all three thermostats to the ahu to turn on heat or cool and the humidifier? Of course this is my first stab and nothing will be connected until I have full understanding.

Thanks

Wayne
 
  #46  
Old 04-15-09, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wayne186 View Post
Alrighty then folks... well I just bloody did it! Today I finished installing the HVAC system that was designed for me by ductworks.

1) insulated duct board
2) 4 dampers
3) static pressure damper
4) humidifier
5) three proliphix NT150h thermostats
6) air handler unit
7) condenser unit

Thanks Wayne
Wayne, can you give us exact details on this equipment please?
thanks
Craig
 
  #47  
Old 04-15-09, 02:40 PM
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being there is worth a thousand words but what you just explained sounds like trouble. If I understand you could have half of the basement calling for AC and the rest would dump into the return! Sounds like a frozen coil to me.
 
  #48  
Old 04-16-09, 05:44 PM
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Hold on a second!!

If I remember correctly this is for the garage/shop and not the house.

Why do you have 4 zones?

What is controlling the entire system?

Don't say you have tstats controlling a unit and a damper. That would be bad.

Echo Airman, frozen coil.

A little more info please.

Waynes website:Selfbuild
 
  #49  
Old 04-16-09, 07:52 PM
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I just spent way to much time reading this mesmerizing thread... wwooww. As I was looking in the mirror to see if my crack was showing a sound hit me ... like a peice of ice falling off a coil..
 
  #50  
Old 04-16-09, 11:58 PM
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Whoa there boys.. whats with all the negative ice vibes :-)

Sorry it has taken me a while to get the answers to you but I have been out playing bob the builder.. this will not be my last post in this thread but I figure since you have all stuck with me for so long on this project I figured I should get the meat to you now and serve you all the veg in a little while.

So here is the equipment:

Goodman GSC130421 3.5 ton 13 seer AC conditioning unit
Goodman AEPF426016 Goodman 3.5 - 5 ton variable speed air handler
HKR15C 15Kw Heat Kit (51'000BTU)
Aprilaire by-pass humidifier

The dampers are all Honeywell and are as follows:

SPRD14 14" Pressure regulated damper (Bypass/Dump) which is connected above the plenum and connects the supply to the return.
ZD10x8 dampers - I have two of these for zone1
ZD12x8 damper for zone2
ZD16x8 damper for zone 3

The thermostats are all proliphix NT150h which are network capable with built in humidity, heat, cooling capability for systems with 2 stage heat/cool. I have three of these - one for each zone.

Now the tricky part has been integrating all of this together and that is where the Honeywell control panel comes into play.

It is a HZ322K TrueZone 3Z 2HT/2CL control panel. Each of the thermostats are wired into this, each of the zone dampers are also wired into this into their respective zones for damper control and the final connections are for the air handler. Now I hear lots of screams about freezing coils and again I am going to admit that I am no HVAC engineer (mainly in part because I can't show my butt crack for the fear of getting into the habit and pissing off lots of my customers.. lol) so being a logical kind of guy it took me a while to figure it all out but when I did it seems to make sense to me (feel free to offer your own advice or verdicts because as of yet this system is not doing any cooling) but there is also a device that I bought with the control panel and it is called a discharge air sensor. This is also wired into the control panel, it is physically installed inside the duct that connects the supply and return air but it is crucial that it be placed in an area where it can sense ambient temperature which must not be above the heat packs nor after the pressure damper. What this does is sense the air temperature in the connecting duct and determined by the variable I configure on the control panel will shut down the heat or cool if it detects that the temperature in here is higher or lower than that required.

Of course I am still learning, I have still got some work to do like wire up the humidifier and get someone in to connect the soft copper between the air handler and the condenser outside and fill the puppy up with the special gas that requires a special butt crack and gauge.. I am frequently referring back to all of the manuals and have certainly got some opinions about a lot of things in the HVAC world now which will be the veg part of my thread but I will leave you with this meat, await your cries and yelps and respond in a barely educated manner. Right now my feeling is that I am pretty happy with what I have managed to do which was install a zoned HVAC system on my own with no other manpower in under a week for a nearly 2000 sq ft area and come away with a good understanding. Feel free to beat down my euphoria but please take into consideration that purile comments that are unsubstantiated will be swiftly batted out, hopefully we can discuss this and keep the old ladies bickering to a minimum.. I look forward to your input gents (and ladies) and I promise to give you my veg which is going to be harsh words which hopefully many HVAC pro's will agree with in the near future.

Wayne

ps I do have a bunch of photos for this piece of the project and I will give you the link once I have changed the url's to move it to a more permanent area.
 
  #51  
Old 04-17-09, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by wayne186 View Post
So here is the equipment:

Goodman GSC130421 3.5 ton 13 seer AC conditioning unit
Goodman AEPF426016 Goodman 3.5 - 5 ton variable speed air handler
HKR15C 15Kw Heat Kit (51'000BTU)
Aprilaire by-pass humidifier

The dampers are all Honeywell and are as follows:

SPRD14 14" Pressure regulated damper (Bypass/Dump) which is connected above the plenum and connects the supply to the return.
ZD10x8 dampers - I have two of these for zone1
ZD12x8 damper for zone2
ZD16x8 damper for zone 3

The thermostats are all proliphix NT150h which are network capable with built in humidity, heat, cooling capability for systems with 2 stage heat/cool. I have three of these - one for each zone.

Now the tricky part has been integrating all of this together and that is where the Honeywell control panel comes into play.

It is a HZ322K TrueZone 3Z 2HT/2CL control panel. Each of the thermostats are wired into this, each of the zone dampers are also wired into this into their respective zones for damper control and the final connections are for the air handler.
there is also a device that I bought with the control panel and it is called a discharge air sensor. This is also wired into the control panel, it is physically installed inside the duct that connects the supply and return air but it is crucial that it be placed in an area where it can sense ambient temperature which must not be above the heat packs nor after the pressure damper. What this does is sense the air temperature in the connecting duct and determined by the variable I configure on the control panel will shut down the heat or cool if it detects that the temperature in here is higher or lower than that required.

Right now my feeling is that I am pretty happy with what I have managed to do which was install a zoned HVAC system on my own with no other manpower in under a week for a nearly 2000 sq ft area and come away with a good understanding. Wayne

ps I do have a bunch of photos for this piece of the project and I will give you the link once I have changed the url's to move it to a more permanent area.
Wayne, excellent posting! thank you! I would like to see some graphics on this system to get a better understanding. I have a desire to do this DIY ac system as well, but i only need 1000 sq ft , maybe half this size, maybe 2 zones, maybe one. My problem remains ductwork in an old house.
thank you
Craig
 
  #52  
Old 04-17-09, 09:26 AM
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Thanks Craig, now as for your zones I guess the question you really need to ask is 'are the zones really necessary'? It does complicate the design and to a degree the install and will certainly add to the cost. For me it was easy to decide because I quite literally had three very separate defined areas (A music studio, a rest area/tack room and a large apartment).

So why the zones for you? Is it because you have a basement that you only want to heat/cool as required? Send me an email with your phone number and we can chat - but you will want to employ the services of a competent HVAC person for 2 things #1 the design and #2 to connect the soft copper and fill...
 
  #53  
Old 04-17-09, 03:50 PM
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Stupid Me not carefully reading the post.

Originally Posted by wayne186 View Post
So I have 3 zones controlled by 4 dampers (2 for the main upstairs zone and one for two seperate zones downstairs). I also have a static pressure damper to let air flow between the return duct and the supply plenum before the dampers that control the zones. I have a humidifier installed in the plenum and I have three proliphix NT150h thermostats to control it all. At some point I will put another post in here detailing all of the main parts and how I connected all the controls, dampers, electrical together. Right now I am feeling bewildered but I have faith in ductworks helping me through it and I have a real HVAC butt crack guy stood by ready to come and connect up the copper between the unit outside and the AHU, charge, check my handywork and do any fine tuning.

So right now I am a happy bunny. If anybody has done any multi zone work and using the proliphix controllers to control it all with the humidity system I sure would appreciate your input. My thought at the moment is that I somehow connect the thermostats to the dampers to open them and also connect all three thermostats to the ahu to turn on heat or cool and the humidifier? Of course this is my first stab and nothing will be connected until I have full understanding.

Thanks

Wayne
I'll have to do some homework on stats and look at your zone panel and dampers.

Remember your bypass damper and duct should be sized (I think) to bypass about 75% of CFM when only the smallest zone is calling. Airman....where are you?

Also invest in a Suction line tstat. Honeywell part FPC. It clips onto the suction line at the evap coil. Wire into the "Y" circuit to stop the compressor @ 36 degrees suction temp and restart at 46 degrees.

Trust me, I've done a couple jobs with Honeywell zone panels set everything up discharge sensor to stop cooling at 48 degrees discharge and ended up with a frozen coil. FPC is a must.

Also make sure dampers are powered open and spring close. Power the damper when heat/cool is needed not all the time it is not. Power open and power close will use power 24/7 and have an even higher fail rate.

Basically what you are doing is wiring the stats to the zone control board. Then the board to the AH and and outdoor unit. Again I haven't looked at the zone board, but you may have several different options here.

I maybe able to use voting. Meaning if 2 zones want cooling and 1 wants heat, cooling is done first and then heating. May also have a "Must serve zone" feature, so if the apartment is "must serve" and wants heat but the other 2 want cooling then the apartment gets heat.

Again, I'll have to read up on what you have to be of anymore help and will return.

Don't still be beating us up. We are behind you. And only my wife ever sees my butt crack.
 
  #54  
Old 04-19-09, 09:21 AM
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Pops there is no more beating up left to do on my part, I got that out of my system within the first couple of posts :-) .. at least not to any Butt crack guys :-) My beating up is more in the manufacturing of components itself..

Why are we paying all this money hand over fist to get the most energy efficient systems yet the components that piece it all together are quite simply crap? What I mean by this for example is all of the tin stuff like boots, takeoffs and the like.

Having a decent amount of experience in the technical field especially in server room applications I have managed many projects that involve fire suppression systems that use a gas instead of water (pouring water over a running computer is not a good idea) and so the first thing we do to calculate the 'tightness' of a server room is run a pressure test to see how much air leaks out of that room. When we get into the hvac systems we do 2 tests, one with the systems on and one where we seal the supply and return vents and turn the hvac off. HVAC systems attribute to a lot of lost pressure in the room and I always wondered why.

Well now I know - even as anal as I am and sealing every hole I could catch I am quite appalled at the build quality of these components. They are put together very cheaply and even the most expensive components are much the same, simply pieces of tin folded together and the seams are not sealed. I would say that on average each component is likely to give up at least 1 cubic inch of air. Add all of these up and you just put a nice big hole in your wallet where you are constantly losing energy through the duct pieces. Gladly I went with the fiber duct so I have reduced that significantly and further more by using aluminum foil on every tin joint including the ones that have a crimp type adjustable bend and wherever possible I sealed holes with either fireblock foam or caulk. My complaint is that I am harry homeowner and obviously I have a vested interest in doing everything to the highest standard so I notice these things and fix them, we should not have to fix these problems.. they should not even exist. I am not a green tree hugger by any means but I just don't like to see money leaving my wallet because of a simple design flaw that could be fixed if manufacturers took pride in what they make. Fiber duct and insulated flexible duct eradicate a lot of this but has anybody ever thought of plastic molded components to build systems that are tighter?

I am going to speak with my ductworks guy about the things you mention here pops and by the end of this project and with your help I am sure I will have a system that does not freeze or cost me an arm and a leg to run.

I did think about what you said about the dampers before you mentioned it and it seemed silly to me to have dampers that were power closed and spring open which is exactly what these honeywell dampers are that I have purchased. What I was finding was that when the system was sitting idle; the dampers would be open and when a zone called for air/heat or cool it would start up the fan and any other device sending that conditioned air to all zones. All the manuals said I should wire them into the control panel in that configuration but I went against the grain wiring them into the panel so that power was being sent to them 24/7 to keep them closed and when a zone called for something it would initiate the circuit and 'remove' power from the damper that was making the call thereby opening the damper for that zone and leaving the others closed. This is one to take up with ductworks and thanks for 'proof checking' the design are confirming my thoughts.

As always thank you all very much for your valuable input
 
  #55  
Old 04-19-09, 09:51 AM
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Last zone job used ARD dampers. Field convertable either spring close or spring open. I used spring close power open as I said earlier.

Ductwork is cheap, simply put. It's all about the install. I remember jobs (Navy base) where the Test and Balance guys could not get design air flow from equipment. You are correct, screw holes add up and leak massive amounts of air.

So, when installing ductwork have foil tape and mastic. Every joint and every seam. Join, tape, mastic!

http://www.hardcast.com/PRODUCTS/pdfs/vg181_tds.pdf
 
  #56  
Old 04-20-09, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wayne186 View Post
This is a DIY forum - we don't care about government rules because they suck, we care about doing the job ourselves, on a budget and doing it right which is why we ask all these annoying questions.
I haven't followed every post in this thread but it sure has been interesting. Did you do a full Manual J? In many places that is required to get a permit for the work. Or did you bother with a permit? Just wondering, since you think the rules suck so much.
 
  #57  
Old 04-20-09, 09:25 AM
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I did do a manual J which was also performed by the guy that designed the system for me - so in essence 2 were performed.. somewhere in my post I think I mention me being anally retentive and doing the HVAC load calcs and yes I am afraid that the government rules do suck in general but the permit process is a must and actually in my recent experience it is very helpful because the inspectors (certainly here in my area) are very friendly and offer advice by the boat load and guide you through the system. So my 'government rules suck' comment may well have been geared to frustration at my own homelands ways - because seriously they do suck!
 
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