Carrier TECH 2000 not starting

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  #41  
Old 08-02-10, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by clocert View Post
I did not read all of your posts, only commented on amp measurement. If you only want to measure amp on 24V wires, then stay away from the contactor which has 120v and 240v. Disconnect one of the transformer wire (white, in your case) from the transformer, connect it to one of your meter lead. the other meter lead connects to the transformer post which the white wire was connected (that Youtube video shows you how to do this). set the correct amp range on your meter, turn the T-stat on, you will see the amp. (If you have a clamp ammeter, simply clamp around one of the transformer wires, don't even touch it, and you see the amp, no need to disconnect or re-connect the wires.)
Yes, the contactor does have 240v but I usually turn the 240v switch on the wall off so that even if the contactor is pulled in, there is no 240v power to run the compressor. I only need to test the amp to see why it's not pulling the contactor.

clocert, since the wires from the thermostat has two wires (white and red) I don't need to measure both of these wires or do I? Another word, I can just measure the amp on the white wire and that will pretty much tell me what the amp is since it's in a series, correct? But here's the thing, I may insert my multimeter into the series from the white wire, but since the contactor is not pulled in, will this give me an accurate measure? Or, do I have to measure this when the contactor is pulled in?
 
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  #42  
Old 08-02-10, 08:52 AM
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Well..since clocert had to go....

No...you should be able to just measure one side...that should be the same as the other. It wouldn't hurt to do both though....they should be the same...but if they aren't..it would indicate some sort of current leakage. Not likely...but possible I think.

You should get current flow even w/o the contactor being pulled in. If you don't..that would indicate an open circuit. What you are looking for is the minimum current required to energize it...if you get some..but not enuf..then its probably time to look at the transformer as was mentioned.
 
  #43  
Old 08-02-10, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Well..since clocert had to go....

No...you should be able to just measure one side...that should be the same as the other. It wouldn't hurt to do both though....they should be the same...but if they aren't..it would indicate some sort of current leakage. Not likely...but possible I think.

You should get current flow even w/o the contactor being pulled in. If you don't..that would indicate an open circuit. What you are looking for is the minimum current required to energize it...if you get some..but not enuf..then its probably time to look at the transformer as was mentioned.
Thank you so much for all of those who answered a lot of my questions.

Gunguy45, I'll try to test both wires then tonight (if it stops raining).

The contactor seems to pull whenever it wants too...mostly during 1PM to 8PM then it quits regardless if the thermostat still tells the AC to run or not.
 
  #44  
Old 08-02-10, 09:07 AM
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It does seem like an overheating problem of some sort. That might make sense, though the timing of when it DOES work seems a bit odd...

I would presume 1-8 PM would be the hottest part of the day? I know it is around here.

You don't by chance have any sort of "energy limiting" program with your power company do you?

Not trying to confuse the issue...do your tests..both when its working and when its not...and post back the results.

After 24 yrs of working with military electronics, I know theres nothing worse than an intermittant problem.
 
  #45  
Old 08-02-10, 09:21 AM
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Yes, that's right. 1-4PM is the hottest of the day and it starts to dying down about 8 or 9PM. Once the contactor is pulled in, it will work until the it stopped. Once the contactor stopped, it will not work until sometime around 1PM or so.

Sure, I'll test both during the contactor works when it's not to see what the difference is in amperage.

No, I am not aware that we have any energy limits from the power company.
 
  #46  
Old 08-02-10, 11:26 AM
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Make sure your transfomer is rated at 40VA. some transformer came with the heating system is smaller, like 25VA.
 
  #47  
Old 08-02-10, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by clocert View Post
Make sure your transfomer is rated at 40VA. some transformer came with the heating system is smaller, like 25VA.
What is "VA"? I opened the furnace but I couldn't find the transformer. Do I just read the ratings on the transformer or do I have to measure it?
 
  #48  
Old 08-02-10, 01:53 PM
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VA (volt-amp)is same as Watts. it is the way to rate the transformer (like 60 Watts for a light bulb). It should be specified on the transfomer. If you have a 40VA transformer, use 40 divided by 24V, you get 1.66 amp. that is the max amp you can get with a 40VA transformer. But since you said your transformer was part of the furnace, I wonder may be you are using a smaller transformer(Just one more thing to check). If you can not find the rating of your transformer, then you need to measure it yourself. that is why other folks on this board ask you to measure the amps that eliminate all other problems (bad wire, etc..) too..
 
  #49  
Old 08-02-10, 02:31 PM
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Okay, can someone confirm if the following device is a time delay as Muggle as suggested?



If it is, I wonder if this is the device that's gone wrong. The reason I suspect this device is that if I turned off the thermostat for sometime and then restart it again (doing this several time) will actually get the contactor to pull in. Sometimes if the thermostat is left running for several hours, it may also actually triggered the contactor to pull in.
 
  #50  
Old 08-02-10, 02:55 PM
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Okay, I found the ICM time delay but the problem is, this new time delay does not have three tabs for connecting my three wires (yellow from compressor, black and purple). How do I install this time delay with my three wires?
 
  #51  
Old 08-02-10, 04:12 PM
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Yes, time delays are what ICM makes. Call ICM Controls and ask them what the correct replacement is for yours.
 
  #52  
Old 08-02-10, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30 View Post
Yes, time delays are what ICM makes. Call ICM Controls and ask them what the correct replacement is for yours.
I emailed and the guy who checks the [email protected] email is out of office until the 4th of August. So I called and they are close at 5PM Eastern time. So since the time delay is only about $5, I decided to order. In my contactor, I have the brown wire, which is connected to the white wire from the thermostat, and the black wire, which is connected to the time delay. Since this new time delay has only one tab for output, the question is, I only connect the purple wire to the output tab of the time delay and ignore the brown wire, correct? Will this work? Does anyone have an idea?

By the way, I will give ICM a call tomorrow before they closed to confirm.

Thanks for any response.
 
  #53  
Old 08-03-10, 05:55 AM
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ICM Controls finally respond to my email.

"Please contact your local Carrier Dealer"

Very disappointing. They can't tell me a replacement part for one of their own time delay devices. That's a load of [email protected] I may have to ask a local Carrier for the correct part...however, I already ordered. I may have to tell the store to postpone my order.
 
  #54  
Old 08-03-10, 07:37 AM
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Okay, so I just contacted our local Carrier and they said it looks like the replacement will be the ICM150. However, the ICM150 has four terminals and mine only has three. So, once again, they pointed me to contact Carrier.
 
  #55  
Old 08-03-10, 09:35 AM
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Okay, I found a user with the same problem as mine on this thread. He also believed that it might be the delay timer. However, in that thread they're not allow to give out help if the user is not a pro membership. Anyway, if anyone can help me find the replacement part for the ICM part number HN67ZA003B. I already canceled my order since it's not going to work with my system.
 
  #56  
Old 08-03-10, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by clocert View Post
VA (volt-amp)is same as Watts. it is the way to rate the transformer (like 60 Watts for a light bulb). It should be specified on the transfomer. If you have a 40VA transformer, use 40 divided by 24V, you get 1.66 amp. that is the max amp you can get with a 40VA transformer. But since you said your transformer was part of the furnace, I wonder may be you are using a smaller transformer(Just one more thing to check). If you can not find the rating of your transformer, then you need to measure it yourself. that is why other folks on this board ask you to measure the amps that eliminate all other problems (bad wire, etc..) too..
Okay, here's my measurement.



All the wires (blue and yellow) that's connected to the red wire from the thermostat never managed to pull the contactor. Does this mean the red wire has problem or the transformer is low in outputting enough amp to pull the contactor?
 
  #57  
Old 08-03-10, 09:40 PM
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let's back off a little bit, Usually, if the contactor does not work, after we check the 24V, we just replace the contactor (because they are cheap), if that does not fix the problem, we replace the transformer (also cheap), very seldom as a DIY person that we work on time delay unit or compressor short cycle protection function. But since you got this far already, it will be interesting to see how everything turns out at the end. I don't understand what you mean by-- the red wire never pull, and purple pulled with .216A. Can you try to jump the red and purple(so to bypass the timer/compressor) and see if that pull the contactor ?
 
  #58  
Old 08-04-10, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by clocert View Post
let's back off a little bit, Usually, if the contactor does not work, after we check the 24V, we just replace the contactor (because they are cheap), if that does not fix the problem, we replace the transformer (also cheap), very seldom as a DIY person that we work on time delay unit or compressor short cycle protection function. But since you got this far already, it will be interesting to see how everything turns out at the end. I don't understand what you mean by-- the red wire never pull, and purple pulled with .216A. Can you try to jump the red and purple(so to bypass the timer/compressor) and see if that pull the contactor ?
You are right. I was checking the replacement part for the time delay and it's over $134. So, I'm going to hold off to that especially when I measure the amp last night the most I got was .216A only.

Here's how I did it.

1. I put the positive (red lead) to the red wire and the negative (black lead) to to the blue wire and I got .046A and the contactor never pulled in.

2. Positive lead clip to brown wire (which is directly connected to the white wire) and negative lead clip to the contactor. The meter reads .046A when the conactor is not pulled in. Once the contactor is pulled, the meter reads .216A.

3. Positive lead clip to the purple wire and negative lead clip to the contactor terminal. When the contactor is not pulled, the meter reads zero but when the contactor is pulled in, the meter reads .216A.

4. Positive lead clip to the yellow wire and negative lead clip to the middle time delay terminal. The meter reads .046A and the contactor never pulled in.

Okay, so your last question is, put the positive lead clip to the red wire and the negative lead clip to the purple wire (on the end that connects to the contactor terminal), correct? If so, I'll try to do that tonight to measure out. If this still measures .0416A or .216A then that means the transformer is not out putting enough amp, correct?
 
  #59  
Old 08-04-10, 08:27 AM
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I see what you did. looks like all you need is .216a to pull the contactor. a little low, but hey, it works. But how do you control the pull or not-pull, if you can make it pull all the time, you are done. what you need to find out is why or what make it not-pull when the T-stat call for it. Find out if you still have 26V on the contactor when not pull or amp=0, if not, then there is an open circuit. I asked you to connect the red and purple (with or without the meter in between) just to eliminate the possibility that timer/compressor was in the way). That 0.046 is a bit strange, there is either a tiny leak or tiny consumption somewhere, but it is so small, let's hope that is not a real problem.
 
  #60  
Old 08-04-10, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by clocert View Post
Find out if you still have 26V on the contactor when not pull or amp=0, if not, then there is an open circuit. I asked you to connect the red and purple (with or without the meter in between) just to eliminate the possibility that timer/compressor was in the way). That 0.046 is a bit strange, there is either a tiny leak or tiny consumption somewhere, but it is so small, let's hope that is not a real problem.
How do you want me to find out if there is 26V on the contact when not pulled? Didn't the following test diagram showed the volt on the contactor?



If not, tell me what wire(s) I should put on the positive/negative leads.
 
  #61  
Old 08-04-10, 11:55 AM
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When amp=0, there is either no power at all or the wire is broken(open) somewhere. that is why I asked you to check the Volts to see if the power is even there first.
What I don't understand is you said 'once the contactor pulls, the amp=0216a. But how do you make it pull ? Did you turn your T-stat on and off to do this test ? or leave it on(call for A/C) all the time. The question is, when T-stat call for A/C, the contactor should pull, if not, that is the time you check the volt and amp. (time delay may complicate the issue, but it should only delay for 3 or 5 minutes) . So, turn on T-stat, if contactor pulls, you are fine, if it does not pull, check V between brown & purple, also V between brown & black, and amp on brown wire.

Gungay, Mike Speed, HVAC retired, Jeg. mug..where are you folks, this thread is a good one, please comment if you can.
 
  #62  
Old 08-04-10, 12:04 PM
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He needs a new transformer which I suggested 5 days ago. He decided since the furnace was new 2 years ago that wasn't the problem so I gave up.
 
  #63  
Old 08-04-10, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by clocert View Post
When amp=0, there is either no power at all or the wire is broken(open) somewhere. that is why I asked you to check the Volts to see if the power is even there first.
What I don't understand is you said 'once the contactor pulls, the amp=0216a. But how do you make it pull ? Did you turn your T-stat on and off to do this test ? or leave it on(call for A/C) all the time. The question is, when T-stat call for A/C, the contactor should pull, if not, that is the time you check the volt and amp. (time delay may complicate the issue, but it should only delay for 3 or 5 minutes) . So, turn on T-stat, if contactor pulls, you are fine, if it does not pull, check V between brown & purple, also V between brown & black, and amp on brown wire.
Many thanks for those who contribute to this thread. I could have called a professional and pay the $50. It would have been easier and cheaper but I wanted to learn this stuff too. So that is why I'm here asking for your help so I can diagnosed it myself and buy the part. However, I can't go around start buying parts because I already found out that the contactor isn't the problem. And yes, I will buy the transformer; however, I'm still trying to figure out what type of transformer I have and where it's located in the furnace.

Clocert, to answer your question. No, I have no way of controlling when the contactor will pull or not besides turn on the T-stat. What I meant to say was, whenever I turned on the T-stat and the contactor is pulled, the amp is .216 but when it's not, the amp is .046. Does this mean the transformer is not consistent with outputting the amp and that's why the contactor is not pulled?

As in the following diagram, brown & purple is 26v and brown & black is 26v:

The amp on the black wire is also .216 when the contactor is pulled but when it's not, it's only .046 even when the T-stat is on.
 
  #64  
Old 08-04-10, 12:25 PM
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If the furnace is only 2 years old and is still under warranty they will replace the transformer for free.
 
  #65  
Old 08-04-10, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jeggs View Post
If the furnace is only 2 years old and is still under warranty they will replace the transformer for free.
It's still under warranty but I can't call the dealer and said I think the transformer bad because my air conditioner don't work. How do I phrase it so that the dealer is more than likely to replace it for me?
 
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Old 08-04-10, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlie2 View Post
It's still under warranty but I can't call the dealer and said I think the transformer bad because my air conditioner don't work. How do I phrase it so that the dealer is more than likely to replace it for me?
Just tell him that sometimes the outside unit doesn't kick in when the A/C comes on. He will troubleshoot the system and replace the transformer.
 
  #67  
Old 08-04-10, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jeggs View Post
Just tell him that sometimes the outside unit doesn't kick in when the A/C comes on. He will troubleshoot the system and replace the transformer.
Thanks, Jeggs. I'll give them a call tonight...hopefully they're not close before I get home.
 
  #68  
Old 08-04-10, 01:06 PM
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ACK! 2 yrs old...jeez...why didn't I see or know that? Was it mentioned in this thread?

I think most of us would have said..."check on warranty" before all this. Learning is a good thing..but not when the dealer says..."Oh..you worked on it? No warranty coverage..sorry."

Could already be too late...depends on the dealer....
 
  #69  
Old 08-04-10, 03:55 PM
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Charlie, If you want to learn this stuff, why didn't you say so. But you won't be able to learn that much by just asking us questions on this forum. If you really want to learn HVAC, here is a book for you to read, after you finish this book, you will be an expert.(for a DIY person, the book is more than enough)
'Refrigeration & Air Conditioning Technology' by Whitman, Johnson, and Tomczyk. 6th edition (cost around $100)
 
  #70  
Old 08-13-10, 06:53 AM
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Finally the drama is over. The HVAC professional drove 3 miles to my house and spent 20 minutes and told me something I knew but I wasn't sure 100% and charged me $85. I drove 20 minutes to buy a $40 time delay replacement and it has been working since then. It's been about three to four days now and it's working fine.

Many thanks for all of your help. I learned a lot but wish I could have saved the $85....but that's life I guess.
 
  #71  
Old 08-20-10, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlie2 View Post
Finally the drama is over. The HVAC professional drove 3 miles to my house and spent 20 minutes and told me something I knew but I wasn't sure 100% and charged me $85. I drove 20 minutes to buy a $40 time delay replacement and it has been working since then. It's been about three to four days now and it's working fine.

Many thanks for all of your help. I learned a lot but wish I could have saved the $85....but that's life I guess.
Did you end up finding the exact same part or go with a comparable part?

Please give me al lthe details as I beleive I am in the same situation as you. (Same part)
 
  #72  
Old 08-21-10, 08:41 AM
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I believed it's a comparable part. I went to our local Carrier dealer and they gave me one that works on my AC model. It does have three terminal but it certainly look much different. I could have gone through the Internet and buy the part myself but since I already contacted Carrier dealer.

Hope you got yours working.
 
  #73  
Old 08-25-10, 09:32 AM
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replace the time delay would be my first suggestion they are cheap and that one does appear to have been overheated.
 
  #74  
Old 08-30-10, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlie2 View Post
I believed it's a comparable part. I went to our local Carrier dealer and they gave me one that works on my AC model. It does have three terminal but it certainly look much different. I could have gone through the Internet and buy the part myself but since I already contacted Carrier dealer.

Hope you got yours working.
Is there anyway to bypass the time delay? It is very hot in my house...

I am tempted to tape down the middle button on the contactor but do not want to damage anything....
 
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