Blower fan speed with fan "on" versus "auto"?

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Old 08-04-10, 06:36 AM
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Blower fan speed with fan "on" versus "auto"?

the smallest bedroom in my house is converted to an office with 2 PC's and a TV/cablebox and the heat can build up in there, especially while gaming, so I have the fan set to "On" so that air will be circulating even while the thermostat has shut off the compressor...

My question is, it seems like the air handler blower doesn't blow ~as fast~ as it does when the compressor is actually running.... is it just me observing incorrectly or do they normally run slower like that? and if so, is there any way I can keep the blower motor running at full speed, even when the compressor is off?
 
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Old 08-04-10, 08:48 AM
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Is your A/C part of a furnace? The furnace fan motor is probably multi-speed - a lower speed is usually used for heating and a higher speed for cooling. Perhaps when the fan is switched to ON, the heating speed is selected.

You'd have to look a the wiring diagram of the furnace and the thermostat to see what is going on and how to change it. There should be a wiring diagram pasted somewhere inside the furnace.
 
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Old 08-04-10, 02:07 PM
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Any A/C I have ever seen the fan on and when the unit is cooling is the same speed. It comes throug the same wire at the thermostat, usually the green one.

The heat speed if different will be through a relay, sequencer or some other type of heating fan switch/limit combo.

Now some of the newer variable speed blowers do work differently but unless you have one of those its probably the same speed.
 
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Old 08-04-10, 06:11 PM
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What is the make and model of your system? Most variable speed system runs the blower on slower speed in ON mode to advoid the "drafty" feeling.
 
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Old 08-04-10, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by theapprentice View Post
Any A/C I have ever seen the fan on and when the unit is cooling is the same speed.
How does that help sarawent?
 
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Old 08-04-10, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30 View Post
How does that help sarawent?

Oviously Buy telling him that its probably the same speed unless it a variable speed motor. Which is what he wanted to know.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 05:17 AM
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It's an american standard, 10kw, model #4TEE3F40A1000AB, installed in 04 I believe. It has a simplistic White*Rodgers thermostat. digital, but non-programmable.

Originally Posted by theapprentice View Post
Any A/C I have ever seen...
no offense but your screen name doesn't speak much for how many systems you may have seen heh, I'd be more inclined to go with "topic moderator" advice
but believe me, it took me a long time to even garner the notion that it might not be blowing as fast as it does with the AC running, as the difference is nearly imperceptible, but my spidey senses kept tingling LOL I still didn't really believe it when I asked this question, but now I do.
BTW I'm am sure, now, that it is a variable speed motor, because I have also noticed that when the AC or heat comes on or shuts off, the blower verrry gradually builds up to speed and winds down to off. so I'm sure there is a speed control and it's not just power on power off to the blower motor. The draft thing in the winter with heat I completely understand, but not when it's set too cool. I think that's a flaw with this system if it is designed like that, to run at the anti-draft speed like it does when on heat, when on cool, compressor not running, fan ON. I would guesstimate that the speed controller must run it at about 80-90% of the speed as when compressor is running, but I'd like to get that last 10-20%! I overclock my cpu's so may as well overclock my air handler, eh?

Thanks for all the help guys, I'll have to try and sneak a peak at the wiring diagram this afternoon.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 05:33 AM
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You do have a variable speed blower.

There is a way that the blower ON speed can get bumped up higher if you want. I"ll have to try find that info back, and get back to you on that.
 
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Old 08-06-10, 11:59 AM
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well I pulled the air handler cover off today, saw the wiring diagram that shows the thermostat wiring and case grounding etc., and it shows a bundle of wires/plug that represents the speed control circuit/s but doesn't show any detail on them at all. the wiring diagram was on another little cover and under that was a transformer, a large bundle of wires and a circuit board with 8 DIMM switches. All down but #7 up. The chart on the blower motor said;

1-off and 2-off meant my outdoor unit is a 3 ton which it is. the largest on the chart.
3-off and 4-off meant my airflow setting was on "normal" at 400 cfm/ton.
5-off and 6-off meant my cooling off delay was selection-none, nominal airflow-100%. Not exactly sure what all that means.
7-on and 8-off meant my aux heat airflow was "med-high" 1125 CFM.

I put #3 up/on to get airflow setting "HIGH" 450 cfm/ton, 150 CFM total gain, but that only changes the speed when it's cooling and compressor running. It does blow noticeably faster though.
I put the #7 switch down/off to set my aux-heat airflow to "high", 1350 CFM. It did not change the speed of the ON fan speed at all, with thermostat switch set to COOL or OFF, and I'm not about to put the HEAT on to test that speed, cause it was already getting hot enough in the house with the AC off in south florida! LOL! I left aux-heat speed on high though, just because. I would have liked if I could have tricked my air handler into thinking there was a bigger unit outside to get a bigger tonnage multiplier on my CFM for cooling, but nope! already have the biggest!

So... the fan speed still ramps down A LOT when the cooling compressor circuit gets denergized and it just runs on ON fan speed. I had previously guessed it to be at about 80-90% but I was just noticing the difference at the vents before. Actually standing next to the air handler, you can hear that it really slows down a lot. Probably 50% or lower.

There is no wiring diagram that shows what the wires in the large bundle of wires are, but I'm sure it's probably as simple as jumping 2 of those wires together to get 100% fan speed? either hardwired or with a switch in between? and either manually controlling that switch or finding something else to control it such as one of the thermostat wires and a contactor/relay? even if I just end up with a manual switch on the side of the air handler to bypass the speed control I'd be fine with that. I really only have a problem with the heat build up during the summer months when I'm gaming and multiple ppl in the room, so I could just go in the closet and flip the switch on when I need it.




EDIT: ok I have since learned that the cooling off delay keeps the blower motor blowing faster for a while after the compressor gets shut off. It's on no delay now. my other options are;

5-on and 6-off = 90 sec delay / 100% airflow
5-off and 6-on = 180 sec delay / 50% airflow
5-on and 6-on = ENHANCE / ENHANCE

I tried all the settings and can't figure out what the enhance setting is, but it doesn't keep the fan running full speed when compressor is turned off. The 90 sec delay DOES keep the blower motor blowing full speed for 1.5 minutes after compressor shuts off. The 180 sec delay keeps the fan running at the same 50% ON speed that I hate for 3 minutes if set to AUTO. If set to ON it just keeps going 50% like it always does. I want to find a way to extend that 90 sec delay at 100% airflow, indefinitely.
 

Last edited by sarawent; 08-06-10 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 08-06-10, 07:33 PM
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Ok, RIght now your blower is running about 50% speed of your cooling speed profile. (600cfm)

We can speed it up to 80% or 100%. The only downfall about running the blower all the time in cool mode is that the humidity level in your home may go up.

Tell me what you would like to do for speed.

Enhance is the "Comfort-R", it gives a better humidity removal and energy use. I like it on.. 5 and 6 "ON". Is your system a heat pump?
 
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Old 08-07-10, 08:14 AM
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It is a heat pump also. For speed I would like the option to have the blower stay running 100% between compressor cycles. For instance, instead of just having AUTO and ON(50%) for fan speeds, it would be better to have AUTO, LOW(50%) and HIGH (100%), or even just AUTO and ON(100%) makes more sense to me than just 50%

Right now I have it on the 90 sec delay 100% and I am liking it. Not fully what I'm after but definitely cuts down on the dead time between compressor cycles. I did some googling on comfort-r and enhance and it seems that it may lower my fan speed? but cycle the compressor on and off more frequently? that may help because it is the dead time between compressor cycles when the blower is only blowing 50% (or 0% if set to AUTO) that the heat builds up. I haven't measured the time it is between cycles but I would guess 5-6 minutes? I would rather it just blow 100% all through that time. It is humid around these parts but with the AC running it stays pretty dry in the house. How would the blower running 100% raise humidity? and would it only do that if running 100% without AC for an extended period of time like an hour or more, or would it still do it with the AC cycling every 5-6 minutes?

I'll set it to ENHANCE and let it run for a day and see how I like it, but I probably won't be satisfied until I can just make the dang thing blow 100%, 100% of the time, when I want it to.
 
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Old 08-07-10, 08:43 PM
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Get all the dipswitches back to what it should be at, and is the out door unit a 3 ton? Set 5 and 6 to Comfort-R. it will help some what with the humidity, but running the fan all the time is going to bring up the humidity, and that lead to discomfort in some homes.

As for getting the blower to blow 100%, we need to change some wires at the board.

This how it should be wired. (Not sure what model # of t-stat you have?)

T-stat-----AH-------HP
R----------R---------R
C---------C/B-------C/B
O/B-------O----------O
Aux/E----W1--------BK
Y---------------------Y
G------Y and G jumper together.

The Y wire from the t-stat goes right out to the heat pump.

G wire from t-stat goes to G at the air handler, then a jumper goes between G and Y.

This is the first time I've had someone say they did not like the 50%, I do not run my fan in the summer due incresse in humidity, but i do run it all winter, and I like the 50% speed since there is no noise, and soft flow.
 
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Old 08-07-10, 09:27 PM
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sarawent,

I believe what Jay is getting at is by running your fan all of the time, it will essentially dry the coil of all moisture that it accumulates during the cooling cycle and redistribute it to your house via the ducts, resulting in increased humidity...
 
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Old 08-08-10, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bmccarron View Post
sarawent,

I believe what Jay is getting at is by running your fan all of the time, it will essentially dry the coil of all moisture that it accumulates during the cooling cycle and redistribute it to your house via the ducts, resulting in increased humidity...
Correct. In some homes, even mine, I seen a jump in humidity some times around 10%. Mine was hanging in the lower to mid 50% when I ran the fan, and drop down to lower to mid 40%. My parents house very little change.
 
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Old 08-08-10, 11:00 AM
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I'll try to explain it the best I can. there's 3 cables. one from the T, one from the HP and one to a Safe-T-Switch. All these cables have their wires connected at a terminal block in the AH. Thermostat is a White-Rodgers 1F89-211

ok going from the left, top row on the terminal block.
G terminal, Green wire from the thermostat. O terminal, Orange wires from T and HP. B terminal, Blue wires from T and HP. W1 empty. W2 empty. W3 terminal, white wires from T and HP.

Bottom row.
R terminal, red wire from Safe-T-Switch. BK terminal, empty. T terminal, empty. Y terminal, yellow wires from T and HP. YLO terminal, empty.

The red wires from the T and HP are twisted together with the black wire to the Safe-T-Switch.
The black and brown wires of T are unused and the black, brown and green of HP are unused. The safe-t-switch cable only uses black and red.

the wiring diagram actually DOES give info on how the speed control bundle wires/plug connects with the back of the terminal block. I just didn't realize it at first.

I haven't really had much reason to think about this in the last 6 years. but this is only the 2nd summer I've had the 2nd computer in there. theres only a few times I've really questioned it and realized it was blowing slower, and that's times like now, in the summer, in the afternoon, when there's 2 ppl in the room with both PC's running, and playing games like call of duty, crysis etc, with overclocked cpu and vid cards and running programs like 3Dmark06 and having the TV on etc., when the AC goes off (especially if some hapless soul has bumped it to auto) you definitely notice the heat start to rise in the room. especially when you walk out of the room and feel how cool the rest of the house still is since the compressor cycled off, then walk back in and it's toasty and you think you'd like to get that heat sucked outta there. the 50% ON definitely helps but why can't I have 100%???
 
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Old 08-08-10, 11:56 AM
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Another thought came to mind...do you normally keep the door open or closed when you notice the heat build up? I am thinking that maybe you arent getting enough of an air exchange if the door is kept closed. This will certainly make it feel hotter, as that room isnt cooling down to the same temp as the rest of the house to begin with.
 
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Old 08-08-10, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sarawent View Post
Y terminal, yellow wires from T and HP. YLO terminal, empty.
Ok, take the two yellow wires off of Y and tie them together with a wire nut. (bypassing Y on the air handler)

Then put a jumper wire from G to Y.

the 50% ON definitely helps but why can't I have 100%???
You can get 100% air flow as I showed you how to wire above.

bmccarron made a good point. Also, is there a return vent in the room?
 
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Old 08-08-10, 02:05 PM
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Yea there is an air return in the room. it's catty corner from the supply though, supply on west ceiling, return on north wall at the floor, and the HDTV on the south and cooler running computer on the SE don't get much cross flow, but I have placed the case for the whammy jammy computer in the NE near the return to draw the heat away from it. it was feeling the suction on the return that made me realize it wasn't blowing as fast.

If I disconnect the yellow wires, will the AH not know when the HP is running? what if the fan is set on AUTO and there is no fan speed and the compressor comes on? does the HP still tell the T through the yellow wire and then T energize the green wire? I think I see how that could work if so. G give 50% G+Y gives 100%. I'm thinking about how I could get a 50% and 100% setting...
tell me if you think this would work, make 2 parallel jumpers from G to Y like you said, but put a 24v relay (2 total) like
Relay, Ice Cube, SPDT, 24VDC, Coil Volts - Relays - Relays - Electrical : Grainger Industrial Supply
in between each, and one relay be activated by the yellow wires, and the other activated by my own radio shack switch I put somewhere, like a little boost button on the side of the AH(or maybe run it through the non-used black and brown wires to the thermostat, I don't want a radio shack switch hanging of the side of my thermostat though LOL). Would this then give power to G only, when the compressor is not running, fan ON, giving 50%. Then when the thermostat sends the signal through Y to the compressor, it activates one of the ice cube relays also, giving power from G to Y also, and 100% fan speed. Then when the compressor is not running, fan ON(50%) and I hit the boost button, (wired between R and B?) to activate the other relay and connect G to Y, giving 100%? cause I really only want the 100% on the hottest days, and would like to leave it running closer to original on the other days.

actually, maybe I don't even need the 2nd relay, just put the boost button between G and Y and the yellow wire controlled relay between G and Y also
 

Last edited by sarawent; 08-08-10 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 08-08-10, 03:01 PM
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Leaving the fan running all the time between cycles will raise the humidity negating any comfort it might provide from the continuous airflow. If you need more "conditioning" in that room adjust the dampers down in the other cooler rooms. If you want longer run times from the A/C you will need to get a thermostat that will allow you to lower the cycles per hour (CPH).
 
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Old 08-08-10, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sarawent View Post
return on north wall at the floor,
I'd move the opening towards the ceiling to pull the heat away from the ceiling..

If I disconnect the yellow wires, will the AH not know when the HP is running?
The "O" wire what lets the fan know for heat pump speed.

what if the fan is set on AUTO and there is no fan speed and the compressor comes on?
If it set to AUTO, the fan only comes on call of heat or cool.

does the HP still tell the T through the yellow wire and then T energize the green wire?
T? Mean t-stat?
No, The t-stat will power up Y and G for cool. For heat, it powers up Y, O, G.


I think I see how that could work if so. G give 50% G+Y gives 100%. I'm thinking about how I could get a 50% and 100% setting...
I am going to have to look at this and draw it out on paper.. Right now, don't do anything with this ideal.
 
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Old 08-09-10, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay11J View Post
I'd move the opening towards the ceiling to pull the heat away from the ceiling..
that seems like a lot of work. what if I just went up in the attic and switched the ducts around? that seems like a lot of work too, dang. all the returns in all the rooms are on the wall near the floor, except the master bath return is on the ceiling. it's the biggest return there is(actually has a filter in it) next to the return on the floor/box that the AH is sitting on in a closet.(has a filter also). It looks like they intended for the air returns in each bedroom to be underneath the headboard of the bed. one bedroom even has the supply on north ceiling and return on north wall at floor, behind the bed, and it's the only wall you could really put the bed against in that room. The others all seem to fall like that too, seems more than coincidence IMO.


Originally Posted by Jay11J View Post
The "O" wire what lets the fan know for heat pump speed.

T? Mean t-stat?
No, The t-stat will power up Y and G for cool. For heat, it powers up Y, O, G.
I think I'm calling heat pump and compressor/ac as the same thing. so O is Heat and Y is Cool?... both run by the same compressor/heatpump.. or G makes fan run 50%, Y makes compressor run forward for cool and G+Y makes fan run 100%, and Y+O makes compressor run backwards for heat and G+Y+O sets fan back to aux-heat speed dip switches 7 and 8?... I think I got it now.



Originally Posted by Jay11J View Post
I am going to have to look at this and draw it out on paper.. Right now, don't do anything with this ideal.
this is what I am thinking.

http://a.imageshack.us/img132/6335/boostbutton.jpg
 
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Old 08-11-10, 08:55 AM
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I haven't done anything with this idea yet, still plan to if I happen to pass by radio shack sometime though. I wish I would have thought of it earlier in the summer, or last summer. In another thread on here, there was a guy who had a power outage and his speed control board didn't work right after that and he had no cooling overnight. I realized that my way of getting 100% fan speed is just tricking the speed control into thinking thermostat is calling for cooling. I figure it would be good for me to know which of the wires going from speed control board to blower motor to put power to to get the motor to spin in case my board ever gets fried.
After looking very closely at it, my wiring diagram doesn't give any info on the speed control wires from speed control board to blower motor, only from AH terminals to speed control board.
There are 7 pairs (14total) of white wires and 1 blue wire and 1 orange wire from speed control board to blower motor. How could I find the wiring diagram for these wires? could it be as simple as just putting 24v to the orange and blue wires?
Mostly just interested in learning how it all works, but it might be good to know in a pinch.
 
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Old 08-11-10, 08:16 PM
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I haven't had a chance to sit down and draw out the plan to see if it works.

Your drawing, I don't know what is a coil, and contacts....

I have not messed the 14 wires, they are complex, and I will NOT mess with it. Just leave it alone.
 
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Old 08-11-10, 09:46 PM
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I would probably stick a small window shaker in that rooms window and use it as needed, the things are cheap as dirt in the 5 to 6 btu range an you can tote it under one arm. Just a thought.
 
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Old 08-17-10, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Former Member View Post
I would probably stick a small window shaker in that rooms window and use it as needed, the things are cheap as dirt in the 5 to 6 btu range an you can tote it under one arm. Just a thought.
I had actually thought about doing that, except it would ruin the view from the window, and it's only in the dead of summer that I would really need it.



Originally Posted by Jay11J View Post
I haven't had a chance to sit down and draw out the plan to see if it works.

Your drawing, I don't know what is a coil, and contacts....

I have not messed the 14 wires, they are complex, and I will NOT mess with it. Just leave it alone.
I came to realize that those 14 white wires, and blue and orange wire, are most likely just transmitting data to the housing on the end of the motor, and inside that housing on the end of the motor is probably more circuit board/s and where all the voltage and hertz modulation and actual speed control is most likely done, so I think I'd probably have to get in there in order to bypass it, and that looks like it would be a real pita lol

one other question though, on the circuit board inside the AH, on the bank of pins that the plug with the (14 white wires +1 blue +1 orange) plugs into, is one empty pin, and on the circuit board beneath it is written "CFM". My question is, is this an input or an out put? If it's an output, is there any way I can read my CFM like you can read the RPM of CPU fan on a motherboard? It is just estimating the CFM by the speed the motor is turning at, right? there is no actual airflow sensor? or if it's an input, is there anyway I can wire my computer to it and control the speed of the blower motor?
 
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Old 08-17-10, 06:53 PM
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The CFM there should be a Green LED light near by, each flash is 100 cfm.
 
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Old 08-17-10, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay11J View Post
The CFM there should be a Green LED light near by, each flash is 100 cfm.
Yes, there is a CFM light as well as a FAN light (I've never had case open with fan running to check them though), but those are in big writing. Directly underneath this empty pin I'm referring to is also CFM written very small. Like on a motherboard how you have your power and reset pins, hd audio pin, and 3-pin case fans (power, common, and signal) and 4-pin cpu fan (power, common, signal and control).
I'm wondering if I unplug one of my case fans and plug in a wire connecting the CFM pin on the AH to the signal pin for the case fan, what kind of reading my mobo would get and what it will show up as in BIOS or HWmonitor for example, CFM or RPM?
Or if it's an input pin, which I think is less likely, I could replace my 4 wire cpu fan with a 3 wire fan that runs 100% all the time, and connect the then-empty control pin on the mobo to the CFM pin and perhaps be able to control the blower speed with a program like speedfan?
It would be cool if there was a USB or ethernet port and you could get CFM, air temp, coil temp, RH, static pressure, line volts, motor volts/hertz, RPM and all that info, and plug your laptop directly into it or put a WAP on it and connect it to your WLAN like a printer, and be able to monitor/control it from your home PC or even the internet with remote desktop.

Do you know of any good home automation programs that give info like that? did some searching here and misterhome was best I could come up with.
 
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Old 08-18-10, 05:30 AM
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Word of advise, just leave everything alone.

I don't know what is what on these variable speed board since I've had not had training on these, and I have not been in the field on these things since '93.
 
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