Fed up with central air, wondering if window or wall units would be best?


  #41  
Old 04-25-12, 07:07 PM
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2 stage is common in today's high efficiency world of air conditioners. But yes, I agree about going with a single stage. 2 stage units are not for everyone.
 
  #42  
Old 04-25-12, 07:07 PM
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Whats the damage for a new one? What size and other specs? I agree with skipping the two stage.
IDK if I have ever seen a 2 stage in a residential setup.
Did you tell him your experience with this Carrier?
A new 4 ton Carrier ( which he says is the lowest cost option ) is $2200 installed, with 1 year labor warranty.

I guess the theory was that 2 stage was supposed to save money, but he says it's negligible, and we can eliminate the expensive condenser control board without it.

Yes I told him the whole story.
 
  #43  
Old 04-25-12, 07:12 PM
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I'm not sure how much insulation your home has, but 4 tons sounds too big. You need to have a load calculation done before you purchase a new a/c. 4 tons may have been ok with a 2 stage unit because in first stage it would have been at less capacity.
 
  #44  
Old 04-25-12, 07:46 PM
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I'll mention it to my guy and see what he says, thanks! Could save us money on the condenser AND electricity, if we don't need such a big unit.

Oh, just thought of something else: When we got the house, it had a dark red shingle roof and no vents. Then after the big hail storm last summer, they replaced the roof and the roofing guy ( brother of a neighbor, who gave us a decent deal ) said he could add vents on top, for no extra charge. ( this is a UBC modular with V shaped ceiling. no attic and just insulation above the ceiling ) Since then, the house has seemed cooler. For example, when it got up to 85 outside, it was 74 in here, with no AC and the windows closed.

So we may need less of a compressor now.
 
  #45  
Old 04-26-12, 04:55 PM
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A new 4 ton Carrier ( which he says is the lowest cost option ) is $2200 installed, with 1 year labor warranty.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ai...#ixzz1tC4RIDSZ
One thing to ask about is high and low pressure safety switches. (built into the outdoor unit)

Pressure switches turn off the outdoor unit if a problem develops which could cause extensive damage to the compressor - example: refrigerant leak, outdoor fan motor failure.

Many low end units don't have pressure switches.
 
  #46  
Old 04-26-12, 05:31 PM
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One thing to ask about is high and low pressure safety switches. (built into the outdoor unit)

Pressure switches turn off the outdoor unit if a problem develops which could cause extensive damage to the compressor - example: refrigerant leak, outdoor fan motor failure.

Many low end units don't have pressure switches.
This present Carrier unit has one, yes.

In fact we're now discussing with him, the possibility of just finding and fixing the leak and keeping this unit ( we're barely paying the bills, cant afford $2000 ) and being he's a teacher and knows system wiring, he's thinking he could remove the bad control board and just wire it as single stage. That would save us some money.
 
  #47  
Old 04-26-12, 05:56 PM
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I think he should bring his class to your house and make this a "teaching moment". Maybe you could get a freebie!
 
  #48  
Old 04-26-12, 06:04 PM
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Fat chance of THAT!

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  #49  
Old 04-26-12, 06:05 PM
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I like your thinking Tolyn..................
 
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Old 04-26-12, 06:40 PM
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Seems there's no guarantee that this tech teacher could fix this by making it a 1 stage and finding/fixing any leak, so we're not real game about spending even more on this, and maybe it won't work.

We're torn now, between whether to go ahead with the $2000 new 3.5 ton unit, which we can ill afford, or just get 3 window units for the rooms we care about.

Once you get up to the 8000-BTU size in the Frigidaire Window units ( $209 ), they come with 5 year in-home warranties.

The main question is, if we use 3 of them in just the rooms we usually care about ( 2 bedrooms and 1 office ), will the rest of the house become unbearably hot in the middle of summer? ( like 80 degrees! )
 
  #51  
Old 04-26-12, 07:23 PM
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It might not be the most efficient way to cool your house but it will take the edge off the heat. But you would be dropping about $700 after tax for three window units.
 
  #52  
Old 04-26-12, 07:32 PM
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Yeah, if it didn't solve things for us, there'd be no point. We'd have to be able to live with 3 cool rooms and the rest unknown.
 
  #53  
Old 04-26-12, 07:52 PM
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I'm in the minority here maybe because I have always lived with window units. (Well first it was just fans for many years.) Three 8000 BTU should cool an insulated house. Growing up using a single 18000 BTU window unit we were able to keep a five room uninsulated house cool. The advantage with three units is if one does go bad you have two more to keep you cool. The bad thing may be if you can't plug each into receptacles on separate breakers you may have to add a couple of dedicated receptacles.

You spoke earlier of 5000BTU units for $99. I'd suggest starting with one and see how well it cools.
 
  #54  
Old 04-26-12, 07:54 PM
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I read this whole thread but no one has asked you what exactly is the a/c doing or not doing? Is it blowing air? Compressor runs, not run? Warm air?

Hmm just my two cents.

I have the Frigidaire 5k btu window units. I cool the two hot 13x13 upstairs rooms in a cape code home. Cools no problem. ( If you ever had a cape you know how hot it gets up there.)

Those units are nice with digital controls and power saver. Unit goes off when it makes temp and back on when it gets hot. Saves me electric. Also has a timer.

I also have a 10k btu that cools the whole 1 st floor. I am only 1000 square ft on 1st floor. But my theory is it may not be freezing cold but it takes the humidity out. If its close to 100f outside the unit never turns off...LOL. ( Must be sized right)

I believe I save more electric with the window units, but also have ceiling fans in all the bedrooms and family room.


Mike NJ
 
  #55  
Old 04-26-12, 08:30 PM
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You'd have to go to the start of this thread to see the whole story on the central air and what it's doing. We'd want the fan to stay on as long as the unit was on, but would turn it off when leaving that room.
 
  #56  
Old 04-26-12, 08:47 PM
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We'd want the fan to stay on as long as the unit was on, but would turn it off when leaving that room.
Thats only for the power saving feature that the unit turns on and off by temp. With that feature turned off it operated normally.

I have these. Mine only has the 4 buttons on the face with the digital read out. In the description it shows a different unit.

Amazon.com: Frigidaire FRA054XT7 5,000 BTU Window-Mounted Mini Room Air Conditioner: Home & Kitchen

Mike NJ
 
  #57  
Old 04-26-12, 08:55 PM
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That's kinda a small unit Mike. We're get at least the 8000 BTU LRA087AT7 at $209.00. Three of them should at least make it comfy in the rooms we're in most.
 
  #58  
Old 04-26-12, 09:04 PM
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How big are the rooms? Window units if size too big cycle too often and dont take the humidity out of the room.

Years ago I thought bigger was better. Its not.

Just saying size to the room. If a open floor plan then bigger may work.

Properly Sized Room AC : ENERGY STAR

Mike NJ

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  #59  
Old 04-26-12, 09:17 PM
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We're in the Denver area so humidity isn't a major concern.

If it gets to 90, the humidity is usually 6%, or it clouds up, rains and cools off.
 
  #60  
Old 04-27-12, 09:52 AM
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The Inficon DTEK Select is a great electronic leak detector. If your tech shows up with one of these you will probably find any leak that is not in the lineset (wall).
By the way, what about a tech that doesn't bring any detector and uses soap bubbles?
 
  #61  
Old 04-27-12, 10:19 AM
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Soap bubbles is the best. I do carry a detector, but at end, I always use soap bubbles to confirm the leak. (detector is not 100%, soap bubbles is)
 
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Old 04-27-12, 10:45 AM
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Soap bubbles is the best. I do carry a detector, but at end, I always use soap bubbles to confirm the leak. (detector is not 100%, soap bubbles is)
I'm learning so much here, and just want to say that you guys are all great! I went to a different forum before this, HVAC Talk or something, and it was all for contractors, and they didn't allow posting of prices or ANY criticism of contractors, it was like a dictatorship to support contractors.

But this forum is so friendly and helpful!

Now with bubbles, are they likely to detect a leak so small that it takes a whole summer for all the gas to leak out? Or is a detector best for that? Or is it difficult either way?

We found that the O-rings had been taken out of the valve covers, and I'm told that this may have been a crooked trick by the original installers, to get the gas to leak out slowly and need them to come out and make money every spring. Why else would they be missing the O-rings?
 
  #63  
Old 04-27-12, 03:47 PM
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Yes, bubbles will find the small leak, even it is very small. Detector can quickly get you to the vicinity of the leak area, then you use soap bubbles to zero in, to find the exact leak spot.
 
  #64  
Old 04-27-12, 04:05 PM
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For less than the cost of three 12 000 BTU window units and one 6000 btu unit (that's 3.5 tons - 42000 btus), the leak in your existing system can probably be fixed.

It could be in the coil, lineset, or outdoor unit.

A skilled tech can do an isolation test to see if the leak is in the lineset/coil or condenser unit.

Further testing can reveal any leaks in the indoor coil.

If the lineset is leaking and it's buried inside a wall, the best option is to have new lines installed on the outside of the house.

If the outdoor unit is leaking at a joint, repair shouldn't pose a problem. If the condenser (outdoor) coil is actually bad, replacement might be the only option.
 
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Old 04-27-12, 04:32 PM
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We had one guy come over and tell us there was "plenty of gas" in the system, but the control board was bad. He charged $125 for the diagnosis and I couldn't reach him by phone or email after that. Then this guy came out ( the teacher ), said the gas was low, put some in, and then said the control board is bad too. $330 for all that, and it's still not fixed. He now says he might be able to rewire it for single stage without the control board, and make sure it's not leaking, but no guarantees it will work after that. This thing has been a money pit for us. If we call someone else, it will be more money and maybe the same advice.

So it's 4th down and time to do something or punt. We try fixing it with this guy, OR have him install a new condenser for more than we can afford, OR look at window or wall units.

We're nervous about window units, being two women living here, that someone could pull one out and come in. Then we might have to shoot them. ( we're armed women, after all ) And then window units in 2 of the 3 rooms we'd need them, would be inconveniently behind things in the windows, and hard to reach.

But what about wall units of the same btu capacity? It's a modular house, like "stick built". Would it cost much to have 3 wall units installed, assuming they work on simple 120vac and get plugged into the wall? Do they need permits a "licensed" installer?
 
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Old 04-27-12, 05:29 PM
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Cutting in wall units would likely be same or more expensive. You would have to add headers in each opening you make in the wall.

Being an electrician, I would like to point out again that you current electrical circuits might not handle the additional load of 3 window or wall A/C units. Wall units more then window ones as they are typically larger. You might be looking at adding some dedicated circuits if you start overloading the circuits. Of course adding circuits can be a DIY job depending on your skill level.

The teacher guy should be able to tell you if he can fix it or not. I do not understand why he can't guarantee it will work. Find the leaks, fix the leaks, check the gas level, put in a relay or two to bypass the bad board and it should be a done deal.

Am I missing anything?

BTW - Happy to hear your armed women!
 
  #67  
Old 04-27-12, 06:03 PM
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Cutting in wall units would likely be same or more expensive. You would have to add headers in each opening you make in the wall.

Being an electrician, I would like to point out again that you current electrical circuits might not handle the additional load of 3 window or wall A/C units. Wall units more then window ones as they are typically larger. You might be looking at adding some dedicated circuits if you start overloading the circuits. Of course adding circuits can be a DIY job depending on your skill level.
We're only thinking of 8000 btu units either way, and I think they only draw about 5 amps?

I'm a former electronics R&D technician but am not into house wiring and crawl space stuff, at age 63. :NO NO NO:

But I don't even see any of these in wall units at Lowe's, only window units. No one sells them with sleeves?

The teacher guy should be able to tell you if he can fix it or not. I do not understand why he can't guarantee it will work. Find the leaks, fix the leaks, check the gas level, put in a relay or two to bypass the bad board and it should be a done deal.

Am I missing anything?
Wish I knew. Doesn't help confidence.

BTW - Happy to hear your armed women!
Thanks. And I have 7 years of martial arts training, but wouldn't bother with that when we have a pair of 12 gauges, a XD-45 ACP and a XD-9.
 
  #68  
Old 04-27-12, 06:48 PM
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To determine amp draw of energy star new window units, divide cooling capacity by 1200.

------------------------------------
With respect to your central system, it sounds like you have yet to find a decent contractor.

If both the compressor and fan turn on and run at the right stage, the control board is good.

If there's a refrigeration related problem, the tech should...

1. Verify that the air handler or furnace is moving the correct amount of air for the outdoor unit.
2. Verify that the indoor coil is properly matched to the outdoor unit
3. Verify that the filter is clean
4. Verify that the condenser coil is clean
5. Determine if the metering device (the component that regulates the amount of refrigerant which enters the coil) is a fixed orifice or txv (expansion valve)

^The above needs to be done prior to even putting gauges on the system, because insufficient airflow throws off pressures. (the same goes for mismatching)

In order to tell what's happening in the system, he should...

1. Measure the drybulb and wetbulb return air temperature
2. Measure the supply air temperature and outdoor temperature
3. Check the pressures - there should be two readings: high side and low side
4. Most importantly, check the refrigerant line temperatures (required to calculate what's called subcooling and superheat, both of which can tell the tech exactly what's happening)

Based on the above, it's easy to tell if there's a refrigerant leak or another problem such as a restriction or bad txv.

If he only attached his gauges to the larger insulated pipe, find another company. Why someone would charge you for a repair which didn't work is beyond me.
 

Last edited by user 10; 04-27-12 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 04-27-12, 08:01 PM
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If both the compressor and fan turn on and run at the right stage, the control board is good.
They don't.

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  #70  
Old 04-28-12, 12:04 AM
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What happens when you try to run the system?

Do you have the model number of the outdoor unit?

I'm not sure how they checked the charge without the compressor and fan running.
 
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Old 04-28-12, 07:23 AM
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I am also a proud owner of a couple of XD9's Nice pistols!
 
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Old 04-28-12, 09:06 AM
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What happens when you try to run the system?

Do you have the model number of the outdoor unit?

I'm not sure how they checked the charge without the compressor and fan running
No cooling. I posted the model number earlier in the thread. He checked the charge by jumpering them on.

Jeez, as much money as we've spent on this, I almost feel like going to AC tech classes and getting gauges for myself, and learning to do all this for myself. We have a big HVAC parts store about 3 miles away, that teaches classes for techs.
 
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Old 04-28-12, 09:14 AM
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I am also a proud owner of a couple of XD9's Nice pistols!
Yes they are. I used to carry the XD-9 myself, until the guys in my gun group urged me to get the XD-45 ACP for more "stopping power".

So my little sister carries ( in a waist pack ) the XD-9 she inherited from me, because she's handicapped and can't accurately shoot and carry anything bigger. ( I know it doesn't have huge stopping power, but she carries it with 17 rounds of jacketed hollow points. ) I purse carry the XD-45 ACP with 14 rds of JHP.


 

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  #74  
Old 04-28-12, 10:08 AM
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Let's stay on topic in the thread, please.
 
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Old 04-28-12, 01:59 PM
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OK, so how come Lowe's only sells window units and not wall units with sleeves?

In a climate like Denver's, would a wall unit leak a bunch of cold air into the house in the winter? Or for that matter, would a window unit?
 
  #76  
Old 04-28-12, 02:34 PM
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Because installing a window is MUCH easier than installing a wall unit. Like I said, with a wall unit you would have to cut the siding/sheetrock, add a header/frameing, install the sleeve and then do your flashing and repair the siding/sheetrock.

Yes, they do tend to leak cold air but they make covers for them that go on the inside. It helps but does not seal it up 100%.

Lowe's may be able to special order them otherwise you will need to buy them from an HVAC supplier or online. Online might be cheaper, but check to see if the manufactures will warranty it if their products are bought online.

Another option I just thought of: Check into portable A/C units. They are fairly new(ish) and you can vent them through a 4" hole in the wall (IE dryer vent) or a narrow space in the window. Most come with a window piece. I see my Lowe's online has 3 of them up to 12K BTU. They are a little more expensive but are easier to move around (maybe you could move it from the Bedroom during the day and back at night) and I understand they are very quiet, although I have no experience with that. Most nowadays evaporate the water in the discharge hose. I have also seen them at HD and Sears. Might be a good option.
 

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  #77  
Old 04-28-12, 04:35 PM
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Here's the schematic for your unit - http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc...t/38tdb_3w.pdf

If the problem is only electrical, fixing it shouldn't cost more than window units.

-----------------------------
Many portable units vent indoor air - if you choose to get one, make sure it's dual hose.
 
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Old 04-28-12, 06:20 PM
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Thanks, but we have that here on the panel cover. The problem in the past has been low freon every spring. ( and a new evaporator coil that we were told was necessary in 2010 )

They put freon in, it works all summer, then every spring we have to fill it again. This MAY have been sabotage by the first HVAC company, now out of business, being the two techs we've had out here this spring BOTH told me that O-rings were missing from the king valve covers.

Then both of these techs told us the control board in the condenser unit is bad now. This tech, "the teacher", says he thinks he can remove the board and save us the expense of replacing it, rewiring the system to be single stage from now on.
 
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Old 04-28-12, 08:50 PM
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Then both of these techs told us the control board in the condenser unit is bad now. This tech, "the teacher", says he thinks he can remove the board and save us the expense of replacing it, rewiring the system to be single stage from now on.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ai...#ixzz1tOgc0SpX
You have a nice machine which isn't worth crippling because a tech doesn't know how to troubleshoot.

Based on the schematic, checking the board and various controls should be very simple for a good tech - a matter of simulating a call for cooling and checking for the correct outputs with the power to the outdoor unit off.

They put freon in, it works all summer, then every spring we have to fill it again. This MAY have been sabotage by the first HVAC company, now out of business, being the two techs we've had out here this spring BOTH told me that O-rings were missing from the king valve covers.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ai...#ixzz1tOkG1ksJ
Do the service valves feel oily?
 
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Old 04-28-12, 09:59 PM
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You have a nice machine which isn't worth crippling because a tech doesn't know how to troubleshoot.
I checked him out, he's licensed and teaches HVAC at a local tech college.

Based on the schematic, checking the board and various controls should be very simple for a good tech - a matter of simulating a call for cooling and checking for the correct outputs with the power to the outdoor unit off.
I watched and it appears he did all that, and said the control board is bad. Crippling a good machine? Does the 2 stage deal have any significant benefit?
 
 

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