Time for a new condenser?


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Old 07-18-12, 09:37 AM
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Time for a new condenser?

I have an older central AC system.
Sometimes the cooling does not work that well.
I have recently replaced the filter and it seems better..
It gets frozen and I turn on heat to melt once and awhile.
I had a ac guy come to check Freon and the pressures were 250 & 70. He is saying I need a new condenser and that the system did not need Freon.
The temp out of the vents was 47F-53F degrees.
Replacement is 3k ish.. and that is just the compressor / condenser using the older R22.
Copeland cir3-0290-pfv 3 ton
What should I do?
 

Last edited by kleach; 07-18-12 at 10:11 AM.
  #2  
Old 07-18-12, 09:52 AM
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I have an older central AC system.
Sometimes the cooling does not work that well.
I have recently replaced the filter and it seems better..
It gets frozen and I turn on heat to melt once and awhile.
I had a ac guy come to check Freon and the pressures were 250 & 70. He is saying I need a new condenser and that the system did not need Freon.
The temp out of the vents was 47F-53F degrees.
Replacement is 3k ish.. and that is just the compressor / condenser using the older R22.
What should I do?
We need indoor % humidity & both Return & Supply temps + temp-splits.

Also need outdoor temp & then condenser discharge air temp.

Those temps U did provided appear normal; 'no indication yet' that U need to replace the old unit.
 
  #3  
Old 07-18-12, 09:55 AM
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With a temp of 47-53...how can it not be working well?? That's extremely low (good) depending on what your ambient temp at the return to the coil is. Most of the Pro's say 18-20 degrees difference between return and vent is just fine.

Sounds to me like it's more of an airflow issue?

When you say "Sometimes the cooling does not work that well" what exactly do you mean? Not keeping the house cool? Not removing the humidity? Not kicking on until after the house gets too warm?
 
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Old 07-19-12, 05:45 AM
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Thanks for the replies..
"sometimes the cooling does not work well" ... I meant that the air coming out of the vents is not cool.. more of a room temp type thing (I do not have a laser temp tool) Usually if I touch the vent into the rooms it is cool to the touch and you can tell the the air coming out is also cool. 47-50F ish.. but at times it gets warmer.. I think this is when the coil freezes over and the whole system seem to go wrong until it melts.
The outside temp is 95F+, I have no gauge on inside humidity but it does not seem "dry".
LOTS of water moves through the sump dump to outside. you always see a trickle or even a stream at times. But I assumed that is normal.
At this point.. the coil has melted and I changed the filter and restarted.. all seems OK and is the 47-53F I said coming out of the vents. But that usually does not last long.. only a few days or so ... when the ice builds and then I will have to let it melt to start again??

At what point should I consider a new condenser?

Thanks again..
 
  #5  
Old 07-19-12, 06:09 AM
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DOn't think you need a new condenser. Have you cleaned your evaporator coil ?
 
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Old 07-19-12, 08:39 AM
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kleach....you can get a general RH reading by using something like Providence, Rhode Island (02918) Conditions & Forecast

Look under settings and choose Dew Point and Humidity.....then click on the weather station tab near the top center.

Not perfect...but if you look at what station is closest to you it will be close.
 
  #7  
Old 07-19-12, 02:45 PM
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[TABLE="class: infoTable, width: 128"]
[TR]
[TD]Dew Point:[/TD]
[TD]62 °F[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Humidity:[/TD]
[TD]50%



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The evaporator coil is inside? The gas furnace I have is sealed and unless you cut the metal exterior wall you can not get into it.. Is there another way to clean it?
 
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Old 07-19-12, 05:08 PM
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You are a funny one. Made me smile while reading. The furnace does have a door, I assure you. You arent low on freon yet the coil ices up. Usually in this case its because the blower motor got too hot and shut off but because you say you go to heat i dont think thats it. Most people just turn the fan on instead of going to heat as that can cause large chunks of ice to fall and melt on the circuit board. What temp do you keep the thermostat on usually?
 
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Old 07-23-12, 06:02 PM
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Even if you take the "covers" off to get access to the unit.. you can not get to the cooling coil as it is inside a sealed duct.. when you open it.. you have access the circuitry and you see the gas burners etc even the blower on the bottom.. but no way into the cooling.. the HVAC guy said to replace it they cut into the duct work and reseal when done.. very bad design..

The temp us usually set to 69F ish.
It has been working for the moment..

When it does freeze up and then much warmer "room temp" air comes out.. should I turn heat on? or just fan.. or nothing and just let it melt?
 
  #10  
Old 07-25-12, 07:27 PM
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Back to square 1 again

Frozen again... No blower working...
Heat will not come on to melt..forced to leave system off to melt...
sick of this cycle... What can I do?
 
  #11  
Old 07-26-12, 08:10 AM
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Call a tech to check the freon charge, and also ask him to clean the coil if it is dirty.
 
  #12  
Old 07-26-12, 08:16 AM
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Frozen again... No blower working...
Heat will not come on to melt..forced to leave system off to melt...sick of this cycle... What can I do?
Well, it is time for U to take some Temps.


Performance Data Collection – Best Time to collect data is Late afternoon around 4:30 pm, when attic is HOT; also when outdoor temps are around 85; 95; 105F or, anywhere in between.
*All U need is a good thermometer (digital reading in tenths preferable) & and indoor Humidity Gauge

1) Helpful; Tonnage & SEER of Unit & outdoor condenser model number: __________________

2) TXV or, orifice metering device? _______. Only if U know…

3) Outdoor condenser’s discharge-air-temperature ______-F
Subtract Outdoor air temperature: _______
Outdoor Condenser Air-Temp-Split _______

4) Need the ‘Indoor’ percent of relative humidity - away from Supply-Air outlets ______

5) Indoor Return-Air Temperature ______
Subtract Indoor Supply-Air Temperature ______ -F
Indoor temperature-split _______-F

Need the above information for troubleshooting & performance analysis.

Example below:
A Goodman 2-Ton 13-SEER condenser, 800-cfm indoor airflow; 80-F indoor dry bulb & 50% relative humidity; Indoor temp-split 18 to 19-F.
@ 85-F outdoors; 103.9-F - 85-F outdoors or around an 18.9-F temp-split;
@ Indoor 75-F & 50% RH condenser temp-split is only around 14.9-F
 
  #13  
Old 07-26-12, 05:47 PM
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No air

Not much to measure at this point...
No air is coming out...no fan seems to run..been off for over 24hours,,heat will not trip on either...
inside temp is 87f
sa,e as outside high humidity
it is a 3 ton split system
there was ice in the lines coming into the furnace / ac
they have melted...
seems like a blower issue?

Miller system iinsider model g 3,4 r ?
 
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Old 07-26-12, 06:07 PM
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Not much to measure at this point...
No air is coming out...no fan seems to run..been off for over 24hours,,heat will not trip on either...
inside temp is 87f
sa,e as outside high humidity
it is a 3 ton split system
there was ice in the lines coming into the furnace / ac
they have melted...
seems like a blower issue?
Miller system inside model g 3,4 r ?
appears it might be low on refrigerant 7 it iced up overheating the blower motor due to no airflow over it.

That may have damaged the blower motor so it won't run...

Get some floor fans moving that 87-F indoor air...
 
  #15  
Old 07-26-12, 08:17 PM
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Got blower going

I opened everything..it was wet...even circuit board.

Dried it checked connections... Found one rust from drips...fixed it..
got it so red light was solid..and then was able to get it running again..
built cylocone "dam" around where wires enter circuit board area so if water builds up it will not drip in... Real bad design.

Seems like things get wet.. Trip blower..and then condenser is still on..and it freezes.. Cycle repeats

How do I stop cycle
 
  #16  
Old 07-27-12, 05:12 AM
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Puddles

Woke up to huge puddle on floor... Coil is not accessable would have to cut into metal to get to it...

Tech came last week said freon was fine..
pressures are on previous post..
when it runs it seems fine..but does not last..
not sure if I need whole new system.. The repair people around here seem lemtheynknow less than me...and just want to sell u a new system...
 
  #17  
Old 07-27-12, 06:38 AM
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Sometimes the cooling does not work that well.
I have recently replaced the filter and it seems better..
It gets frozen and I turn on heat to melt once and awhile.
I had a ac guy come to check Freon and the pressures were 250 & 70. He is saying I need a new condenser and that the system did not need Freon.
The temp out of the vents was 47F-53F degrees.
Replacement is 3k ish.. and that is just the compressor / condenser using the older R22.
Copeland cir3-0290-pfv 3 ton
What should I do?
What was the outdoor temp when Tech got 250-psig or, 117.5-F condensing temperature?

At 70-psig suction pressure is 41-F.

Looking at the vent temps, depending on the indoor temp & humidity; it's possible airflow through the coil may be low &/or, coil is partially blocked & insulated with lint causing some areas to drop below freezing which spreads eventually over the entire coil as airflow contact is reduced & coil continues to get colder.

With breaker turned off to furnace! Check the blower wheel blades for lint buildup; if loaded with lint, pull motor & remove wheel to clean it; don't move or lose the balance weights on the wheel.
 
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Old 07-27-12, 07:55 AM
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dirty unaccessible coil?

"What was the outdoor temp when Tech got 250-psig or, 117.5-F condensing temperature?"
around 90F ish

I looked at the blower blades and there was some wad of insulation stuck there... also the blades have some lint bakes on it seems.. I tried to clean what I could.. which wasn't much. .the blades are very sharp.. There is no way to get the blower without dismantling everything.. the circuit board has to come out.. and its housing.. which seems to be all part of the same piece of metal. Also the blower seems like even if you were able to get it out.. that it would not be able to be put back in.. due to very poor/cheap engineering, if you can call it that. Clean in place is the only option. WHen it runs it does push a decent amount of air out of the room vents. SO it must be moving air over the coil.. since the air is cool.

So I thin the assessment of a clogged coil seems correct.. the issue is that it is sealed in the large duct about the heating unit... and there is no easy way in.. if even possible
I was thinking that freezing and thawing may eventually free up the blockage? Unlikely...
So what can I do? Am I forced to have it replaced?
 
  #19  
Old 08-01-12, 07:04 AM
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New readings

at 70F 88% humidity outside the lines read 40F & 109F
The AC guy is here.. I put some Nu-Calgon EzSeal in.
Some freon got on his hand and he smelt it .. and said it was burnt.. I laughed..
he is trying to say the compressor needs a replacement ...
He said that the coil is not dirty but has not opened it to check...

Should I have him just cut into it and check the coil?

I want him to add Freon to fill any that has leaked..

Any other suggestions while He is here.. ??
 
  #20  
Old 08-01-12, 02:53 PM
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cracked pan?

Once the system was charged and running for a little.. the water started leaking out of the coil area and down inside the furnace.
It seems the tray that catches the water is filling or is cracked.. the sump pump is working and spits out water on a regular basis..

If the "tray" is cracked.. it means that the water is spilling onto the circuit board when it get full enough.. so that means I have to replace it.. and in turn the whole system/.. I am told since the compressor is about to go .. or so I am told.

Thoughts>
 
  #21  
Old 08-01-12, 04:45 PM
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You need to find another service company - either the tech who worked on your system is incompetent or he's a crook.

If the compressor was bad, the suction pressure would be high and the high side pressure would be low. Your compression ratio is fine.

A 40-41F suction line at around 69-70 psi indicates that the system is overcharged, there isn't sufficient airflow, or refrigerant was added to compensate for insufficient airflow. Once the airflow problem is corrected, the charge will have to be checked again. Under normal circumstances, the suction line would be 45F to 60F depending on the outdoor temperature and the cooling load.

As it is, liquid may very well be getting back to the compressor - do not let anyone add more refrigerant.

A 109 F liquid line at 250 psi indicates (8F subcooling) indicates that there's plenty of refrigerant in the system.





Should I have him just cut into it and check the coil?

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ai...#ixzz22LE08zfN
The coil should be checked.

It's impossible to get the charge right with a dirty coil.
 

Last edited by user 10; 08-01-12 at 05:07 PM.
  #22  
Old 08-01-12, 10:30 PM
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Clarification:


A 40-41F suction line at around 69-70 psi indicates that the system is overcharged, there isn't sufficient airflow, or refrigerant was added to compensate for insufficient airflow. Once the airflow problem is corrected, the charge will have to be checked again. Under normal circumstances, the suction line would be 45F to 60F depending on the outdoor temperature and the cooling load.

Normally insufficient airflow reduces the suction pressure and temperature to an extent. In your case, the pressure is more or less where it should be but the temperature is far too low. Adding refrigerant raises the pressure (aka dirty coil or low airflow misdiagnosed as a refrigerant leak) but reduces the temperature.

All of this is under the assumption that your system doesn't have an expansion valve.

Message to mod:
I know it's normally against the rules to discuss pressures, but this time it's being used to clarify what's happening in the system, not assist the op with illegally charging a unit.

Delete my posts if you'd like.
 
  #23  
Old 08-08-12, 05:48 AM
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having new guy com and check it out

The state of the union at this point is decent.
The last guy added R22, we put the EasySeal stuff in.. also.
The systems seems to be running well.
ALSO I noticed that an old/bad humidifier which is off and has no water in it.. was cracked and connected just above the a-coil to the intake area. Lots of cold "air pressure" was coming out of that. I ducted it the best I could and as a result the air is flowing out of the room vents stronger now... which cools the host faster. etc.. so I think that helped.
I rigged up a sort of water slide into a bucket if the leak at the coil happens again, this should avoid any water getting on the circuit board if it happens but it has been almost a week and the water drip at the a-coil has not happened yet.
We have not had 95+ days recently yet, I was going to ask the new guy what the temps were coming out of the compressor now are. Also he is going to quote a new r410 system.
I asked the last guy to check the coil, he clearly did not want to cut into it to check it, saying he has only seen 1 coil in his 20 years that was dirty and it would be a waste of money. I didn't want to play his game and told him to quote me the replacement and sent him on his way.
I wish I could find a good person to look at this that is not booked out a month or so. At least it is cool in here for now..

Thanks to everyone for the help.
 
  #24  
Old 08-09-12, 06:10 AM
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status

New guy came.. debunked all the previous guy said..
Basically, he says it mot likely froze at some point clogged the port to drain .. eventually drained. . he doubts the tray is cracked since it would be leaking now.. system seems to run ok right now..
The thermostat does not seem to be triggering properly.. the new guy said in northeast humidity is the issue.. and to just keep it on 72 and hold it there all summer..
he said the condenser seemed fine.. so I guess I just try to move forward.. see if it freezes up again.. he will provide quote for replacement..
 
  #25  
Old 08-09-12, 07:18 AM
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You should be perfectly comfortable with the thermostat set at 75-F with Humidity at 50% or less; that is what most systems 'indoors' are designed for...

You should not have to set the thermostat at a very low 70-F; as the temperature goes lower the % of RH goes up which requires more unit-runtime to remove more grains of moisture to reach the same 50% percentage of relative humidity you had at 75-F.
 
 

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