Outdoor unit FAN

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  #1  
Old 09-05-14, 06:58 PM
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Outdoor unit FAN

Hello all, just a quick question related to the Fan on the outdoor unit. I noticed the air was blowing warm in the house. Went to the return and the A coils were not cold. Went outside to the compressor and the fan had stopped. I played around a bit, got it to run, then it stopped again. I then took the fan off the top, set it upside down and started the AC again. The fan ran great! I then put the fan back in place, fired up the AC, fan doesnt want to start. I gave the stick test and got nothing, the fan did not want to spin at all. Once again I took the fan off, flipped it upside down and it ran fine again. Replaced the fan, and it wont start at all. Is the fan bad, or a weak compacitor? Hoping for the weak compacitor, but thats prob not whats wrong here, ideas?

thanks!
 
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  #2  
Old 09-05-14, 07:45 PM
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The capacitor should be replaced any time that you replace the fan motor.

Did you remove the drain plug?
Does the fan blow air up from the top when it runs? (check rotation)

What is the FLA listed on your new motor?
What is the fan FLA listed on the condenser nomenclature? (could be over amping)
 
  #3  
Old 09-06-14, 01:02 AM
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Hello Houston204,

Thanks for the reply. The fan is not new, Id say its close to 7 years old. Ill attempt to try and explain a bit better, I was a little excited last night, lol.

1. fan wont start, makes loud grunt type noise when trying to do the stick test.

2. removing fan, turning it upside down (blades on outside of unit) fan runs great.

3. while upside down I spun fan in opposite direction, then started unit. Fan started and began to spin in correct rotation (campacitor is good?).

To answer your question about rotation, yes it is blowing correctly. I am not sure where the drain plug is, and the others relate to a new fan.

thanls
 
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Old 09-06-14, 01:22 AM
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I can believe that a 7 year old motor has failed. I have seen it happen many times.

Capacitors are cheap and easy to find on the internet but you would need the voltage and microfarad values on the existing cap to search for one.

Your options here include replacing the cap, replacing the motor and cap, or picking up a meter that can check capacitance (volts, ohms and preferably amps) and and proceeding from there.



It sounds like you need a motor and cap.
 
  #5  
Old 09-06-14, 01:26 AM
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I have a fairly good meter, its digital but only thing it doesnt do is test capacitance.

would like to add, the caps that are in the unit now I got from local AC shop. It was a kit that replaced the switches and all, Id say 3 years ago.
 
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Old 09-06-14, 01:36 AM
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3 years isn't new for a cap. I've seen 1 year old caps fail after storms and power surges.

Do you have a clamp on amp meter?
You can calculate capacitance if you know voltage between start and run and amperage on the start leg.

amps / volts x 2652
 
  #7  
Old 09-06-14, 01:59 AM
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My meter isnt the clamp on type, but will meassure volts and amps and ohms.

Ideal Industries, Inc. 61-360 Test-Pro Multimeter 360 Series
 
  #8  
Old 09-06-14, 02:26 AM
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I have 2 caps under the hood (so to speak).

compressor cap read 374 volts

fan read 14 volts, does that sound right? maybe a picture will help, give me 5 minutes to have one uploaded.

thanks
 
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Old 09-06-14, 02:29 AM
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It lists a 10 amp rating. If you want to unplug the start wire from the run cap and place your meter leads in series between the start wire and the run cap it is your decision.

I wouldn't test the motor amps with that brick meter.

Home Depot has a good option.

Klein Tools 600 Amp AC Digital Clamp Meter with Temp-CL200 at The Home Depot

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Measure voltage between the 2 terminals on the run cap. probably around 370 volts.
 
  #10  
Old 09-06-14, 02:32 AM
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OK, the cap on the left is 374 volts, the cap on the right is 14 volts. I am assuming the left is compressor, the right is the fan.

can you tell me where to test for the amps please? note how the fan is upside down, the fan runs perfect like this, but does not run when flipped over and installed correctly.

edit....i was looking at the manual for my meter, it does have a 10 amp max. well I thought I had a good meter, lol.



thank you for the link and help, im going to need to pick up a meter that will test all these things. the one i have now i use for work, testing ohms and volts only, 29 volts is highest i ever read.
 
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Old 09-06-14, 02:39 AM
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14 volts sounds like something is wrong.


The MFD value on the run cap for a condenser fan motor will be somewhere between 3uF and 15uF.

The compressor run cap will be between 30 uF and 80 uF.

A start capacitor will usually be between 88uF (microfarad) and 324uF.

(I work with CSiR fan motors that have start caps over 800 uF so I realize that they can be larger)

I use a Klein CL2300 clamp meter for large start caps and amps but I use a little 25 dollar UniT UT118A meter daily for caps up to 300 microfarad, volts, and ohms. It is not much bigger than a Fluke non contact volt stick. (I keep that on my belt as well)
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Last edited by Houston204; 09-06-14 at 03:02 AM.
  #12  
Old 09-06-14, 03:03 AM
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I got a close up of the caps and did a volt reading again

left cap read 386 volts

right cap read 34 volts

I ran the unit with the fan upside down for roughly 1 hour. I decided to flip the fan back to the correct position, its running now. I dont think its fixed though, wish it was but not gonna be that easy.

 
  #13  
Old 09-06-14, 03:07 AM
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Have you tried removing power and checking the motor windings?

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  #14  
Old 09-06-14, 03:37 AM
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C to R (herm) read 2.5 and made the meter "beep" like when toughing the leads together.

C to S (fan) read 110 and had no beeping

R to S read 111.7

the cap on the right side

1.5 for first one

2.5 for second

3.1 for thrid, these all made the beeping noise from meter
 
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Old 09-06-14, 04:22 AM
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I am surprised by the 110 reading.
 
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Old 09-06-14, 05:29 AM
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Due to the miss match can we say bad cap? If it were the fan, why would it run upside down? Guess same question can be asked of the cap and the fan running upside down. Only thing I canbthink here is the fan is not under the same load/resistance as when its in the unit correctly.
 
  #17  
Old 09-06-14, 10:02 AM
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Changing the cap would be the least expensive choice to start with.
 
  #18  
Old 09-06-14, 10:21 AM
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I found a supply house, spkoe to a AC guy and showed the pictures. He said I have a hard start on there, the right hand cap. but this cap was only a 45, and tested bad. The left cap is OK for both motor and fan, tested good. I put the good cap back on, wired according to the explaination I got. Everything fired up and was working until I spray a tiny bit of water on compressor and fan housing. As soon as the water hit the fan housing the fan began to slow. It slowed to a stop, I killed power, then started again after a few minutes, it did start (slowly) but I decided to kill it again and rig a shop fan over the hole. This is keeping comopressor cool enough to work on the fan. The fan has a cap on it, this cap was full of cotton or something. Around the shaft is the bearing, and it had black grime around it. Do I have a bad bearing then, there is play in fan motor (up and down play). Also can I or do I need to oil this? The supply house also said my motor is a "quiet" model and runs about $350!!!



 
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Old 09-06-14, 10:45 AM
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I hope that they used a meter that measure capacitance and didn't just ohm the cap. The old techs used to ohm a cap when I started in this field. That a poor testing procedure .

AC supply houses are going to give you the retail price. Try Amazon

You will need a new cap with your new motor.

Motors have drain plugs when you buy them. Locate the drain plug on the bottom of your new motor and remove it so that your new motor doesn't fill up with water. The plug on top of the installed motor should remain in place.
 
  #20  
Old 09-06-14, 12:15 PM
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I cant seem to find a matching motor. What I can find is a higher RPM of 1075, the rest matches my current motor. Am I able to buy a faster spinning motor, or will this risk more damage down the line?
 
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Old 09-06-14, 02:14 PM
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850 and 825 rpm motors are available.

https://www.marsdelivers.com/wps/wcm...1-239c659d1b6c
 

Last edited by Houston204; 09-06-14 at 11:03 PM.
  #22  
Old 09-07-14, 02:14 AM
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Thanks for the link! On page 5, item # 10204 this matches what my motor is, only is slightly higher in amps. Will this be OK, or should I grab the SunSlinger, I do live in Texas. Guess you do as well by your name, I am east of you down 1960, in Dayton.

aslo like to note, when installed correctly the fan seems to wobble a bit, shaking my whole unit. when upside down, it does not wobble nearly as bad, worn bearing?

edit... You know I been thinking. Ive had that motor running upside down from the way it should be installed for 12+ hours now. Could a cap fail after running for X amount of time when under a load? Im sure when installed correctly that fan is under a higher load, as its pulling air from a enclosed area, as to spinning freely when upside down (coils are not dirty in unit). You had said you didnt like that 110 reading I got. The contractor at the supply house stopped me from buying a fan, said that hard start should not be installed, and the wiring is prob messed up (wired wrong). He also gave me his number, lol.
 

Last edited by Carrie Abney; 09-07-14 at 02:47 AM.
  #23  
Old 09-07-14, 02:40 AM
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A hard start kit will not help the condenser fan motor.

I would much rather have a new motor with a higher amperage rating than a lower amp rating. I have had motors drop out in less than 24 hours when installing a replacement with a lower amperage rating.

The Mars 10204 is 61 bucks on Amazon.

The Sunslinger is a longer motor.

I would pick the 825 RPM 1/4 hp condenser fan motor that matches dimension B the best.
 
  #24  
Old 09-07-14, 03:18 AM
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would this be the correct cap?

cap
 
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Old 09-07-14, 07:15 AM
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The 45 + 5 is correct. Match the voltage rating of the old cap or get the 440 volt if in doubt.

I try to only stock 440 volt caps on my shelves. It is physically larger and they seem to swell up less often. The old strap may not fit when going from a 370 to a 440 volt cap.
 
  #26  
Old 09-08-14, 04:30 AM
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Just wanted to say Thanks to you, Houston204 for all your help, and to doityourself.com for having these forums!

I ordered the fan from KTOOL this morning, they offer a 2 day shipping so I should get it by mid week. I didnt get the cap from them or Amazon, I'm going to pick this up locally, who knows a new cap my fix the issue *prays to the AC gods*

I'll post when I get everything set up and running like it should be, fan blades inside the unit rather than on top like it is now. To my suprise the upside down fan rig up Ive got didnt fail me yesterday. It cooled the compressor enough to stay running and keep the house at a decent temp. I have some more things I want to tackle with my AC, duct work being one of them. I own a double wide and the entry side of my home just doesnt blow hard enough. But this is another thread for another day, maybe mid winter when its cooler, lol.

Thanks Again!
 
  #27  
Old 09-08-14, 10:45 AM
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Any time you can get one of these type of motors to run by manually spinning the fan indicates to me , a bad capacitor or bad capacitor wiring . Or both .

Check the capacitor and see if its micro farad rating is written on it . Some times you will have 2 capacitors made in one unit . Some times 2 separate capacitors .

See if there is a Johnstone Supply near by ? Or W W Granger .

God bless
Wyr
 
  #28  
Old 09-09-14, 02:42 AM
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Hello WyrTwister,

The fan does start on its own, just while it is installed the correct way it turns off after 30 minutes to 1 hour. Im thinking it is overheating. When I popped the cover off the top of the motor there was some insulation, it was soaking wet and the bearing had black build up around it. I let it air out, sprayed some liquid lithium grease on the bearing and that is when the motor began to start on it own. Previously it would not start at all, the motor made a grinding arching type noise when turning on and or trying to push start it. Also the motor when running makes a strange chafing noise while running, it does this now both installed and upside down. As far as wiring goes, the pics I posted of the caps, this was wired wrong. The taller cap(on right) at one time was a hard start cap, it had blown and got replaced by the 5/45 cap in the pic. Partially my fault as I removed the blown hard start cap, took it to a AC shop and they sold me a 5/45. I had no clue what to look for, I just tossed it in and it worked. Now I have only one 5/45 cap installed. I went to a neighbors (has same unit) and drew me up a diagram, came home and fixed it up correctly. Its been a long road, and the arrival of this new motor cant come fast enough. The fan is running upside down now for 2 days, its starting to make strange noises at time, and worse than the noise is the danger. I cut my finger giving the fan a spin, I can only imagine what a spinning blade can do to a hand!

Thanks
 
  #29  
Old 09-10-14, 12:35 AM
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Sounds like you are correct , bad motor . By lubricating the motor bearings , sounds like you got it to run for a few days . But it sounds like it is damaged and is not long for this world .

Hint , wear gloves when working with ( sharp ) sheet metal .

Best of luck , with the new motor .

God bless
Wyr
 
  #30  
Old 09-11-14, 05:42 PM
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So I got the fan today, hooray!!!

I did get a little confused though, I had a 3 wire set up (not including ground) and the motor is a 4 wire. I found a diagram but it deals with the motor having its own cap. I had already bought a new dual cap in anticipation of the new motor, a 5/370. To get it to work I had to keep the comprssor on the old cap, and use the new cap to run the fan. It now has two 5/370 cap's instead of the one dual cap. is there any way to wire this back to using a dual cap only, or should I buy a 5 run cap to swap out the 5/370?

thanks
 

Last edited by Carrie Abney; 09-11-14 at 05:59 PM.
  #31  
Old 09-11-14, 07:18 PM
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Cap the brown wire with a white stripe and wire the motor as a 3 wire model.
 
  #32  
Old 09-11-14, 07:24 PM
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Here is a diagram I drew up for another member a couple of weeks ago. Of course, your wire colors may be a different color than those shown.
 
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Last edited by firedawgsatx; 09-11-14 at 08:33 PM.
  #33  
Old 09-11-14, 09:22 PM
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I also have a motor diagram that shows the capped brown with a white stripe.

Center row left...

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  #34  
Old 09-12-14, 01:07 PM
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worked perfect guys, thanks!!!
 
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Old 09-12-14, 04:13 PM
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That is great news

Remember to remove the drain plug on the bottom of the installed motor so that it doesn't fill up with water, and check the motor rotation.
 
  #36  
Old 09-13-14, 02:36 AM
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I did remove the plug from the bottom, however one thing I am still baffled by is these 1/4 inch hex head screws in the side. There are 4 of them, they are sticking out too. I removed one, then thought I dont want a hole in the side of the motor, so I replaced it. If a pic will help here I can get one after work today. And rotation was simple, there is a wire coming out that has a water proof plug on it, pulled it apart and reversed the contact and its blowing correctly!

edit...i found a motor online with these same screws. they will be the gold ones on the black housing of motor.

thanks

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L3EUN36/...6&linkCode=asn
 
  #37  
Old 09-13-14, 04:41 AM
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My guess is they would be for a different style of mounting bracket . Probably one that goes around the circumference of the motor .

I would not worry about it .

God bless
Wyr
 
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Old 09-13-14, 05:46 AM
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I'd leave them in as shipped.

Rheem/Ruud units often mount with side screws.
 
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