Outside uint cycled off and back on within 10 seconds

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Old 06-15-15, 07:54 AM
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Exclamation Outside uint cycled off and back on within 10 seconds

I have had a new Bryant unit installed. This is my second summer. It had frozen up at the coil under the house constantly since it was installed so at the end of the summer last year the company decided to replace the coil under my house. The original coil to the unit was an A but they put in an N coil instead because of lack of space. So the reworked things and put the original A coil in. It worked fine but there was only about 2 or 3 weeks left in use so it really never got a workout.

This summer. Unit freezes up, no air through the vents, temp starts to rise, horrible screeching sound from outside unit as it cycles on and off along with about 10 seconds of outside unit vibrating with each cycle. I shut it off and call the installer. Bad some kinda sensor they said, the sensor that says how much refrigerant to use, replaced it, worked one week before freezing up again. Same as before including the horrible screeching sound and vibration. Called them back up. Came out. Pulled out some refrigerant as they said it was over charged. The workers are now videoing themselves to keep from getting their butts chewed out by their boss.<< That was Friday. That day, Saturday and Sunday the unit worked fine in 90 degree weather with high humidity all the weekend. No screeching, vibration, or freeze up but it never really got any cooler than 74 degrees running constantly, but what the heck, better than nothing.

At 2am I awoke to the screech and vibration sound BUT THIS TIME the house was still cooling, air was still blowing through vents. Not frozen, well, not frozen solid anyway. I wait til morning and decide to get a picture of the unit and outside coils (as one of the techs told me previously that the screeching was probably from freezing up at outside unit.) I approach the unit as it shuts off. I stand above it waiting for the fan to slow as to have a good look at the coil when it cycles on again. Before the blades slow enough to have a look it had cycled back on. Then off again, one minute later it comes on again. As the blades slow I did not see any ice on the coil. Temp outside was about 75.

The reason for so much information is because NO ONE seems to know what is going on. Sending the best tech on the planet to look at it tomorrow, so they say.

Facts are :1) Company is very reputable and has been family owned for more than 50yrs. (2) Duct work and returns are all fine and unobstructed. (3) Unit is the right size for the space and is in fact the same size as the one we replaced two summers ago that never froze up. (3) Bryant unit with R22 (4) STill under warranty

I have two questions : Is this a new, unrelated problem since I am still getting cooling in the house? Could there now be damage done to the unit due to such a problematic previous cooling season? ANY AND ALL SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED
 
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Old 06-15-15, 09:02 AM
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I really hope they send the best tech on the planet. Sounds like something they should be able to fix on the first call back.
 
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Old 06-15-15, 05:34 PM
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Should not have had any call backs .

However , it sounds like Moe , curly and Larry were the installers . :-(

Sounds so messed up I could not begin to be able to guess where to start ? Did I hear some one whispering refund ?

God bless
Wyr
 
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Old 06-15-15, 09:39 PM
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I don't know whether to ask them to pull the thing out and find someone else or not. It just blows my mind as to why it does this. After I posted this it froze up solid and I turned it off. Coils on outside unit were not frozen but this coming out of the unit was. One set of photos is frozen and the other is thawed after one hour. You can see how often it must have been doing this as it has blown the insulation off. Can you see anything they are missing by looking at the photos?Name:  10003099_10207221047230917_4444946501294036762_n.jpg
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Old 06-16-15, 03:57 AM
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If you are getting good air flow through the furnace & A-Coil , and your return and supply ducts are good ( and clean filter ) ? Then I am guessing low refrigerant .

Best of luck ,
Wyr
God bless
 
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Old 06-16-15, 09:26 AM
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Super Tech just left. He turned up fan speed and said it was a little low on refrigerant. He blames my air flow and wants to schedule a sales call to put in new duct work and do a load test. I was mistaken, by the way, I replaced the R22 and am now on a 410. I asked the Super Tech why my r22 never froze up with the duct work and he said because the 410 is more sensitive. Does that make sense? Or am I being taken for a ride? Also, he never addressed the cycling on and off every 10 seconds as he seemed to think it was frozen when it did that so that would have been a normal function. Does that sound right?

I asked if their was restriction with the A coil because of this problem only surfacing since the new AC was installed. He said no, but then went back later and said that where it has to sit to fit has is an issue and suggested I could replace the furnace to help the situation. The furnace is old and has started to act up over the past couple of years. Was thinking of doing that anyway. Does that make sense or is that just someone trying to sell me something?

I have had someone refer me to a gentleman that is a 40yr veteran in the AC business. He comes highly recommended. He is coming out Thursday to quote new duct work and address the issues I am having.

Super tech has told me to not use my pleated filters anymore, turned the blower motor up, and added 4 (oz it think?) of refrigerant and said I am good to go. Spoke to the owner and although he wasn't pleased he understands my concerns and my desire to have a second opinion evaluation on Thursday. Wish me luck. I really don't know what will be worse, having to spend thousand on duct work or having to call them and tell them to come get their junk out of my house.
 
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Old 06-16-15, 01:44 PM
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Not much of what Super Tech said makes sense. Sounds like your on the right track getting a second opinion.
 
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Old 06-16-15, 03:53 PM
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Has anyone measured the external static pressure?

Measuring the return air duct static pressure just before the furnace and the suppy air static pressure between the furnace and evaporator coil should help determine if you need more return air, supply air, or both.

If you removed a single speed condenser and installed another single speed condenser that was the same tonnage the ductwork may be okay. You want .5" water column external static pressure. If you have that now the problem is probably something else. (Like a restricted txv)

I have had systems that are running over 1" W.C. ESP that were running terribly untill we added more return air ductwork.
 
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Old 06-16-15, 05:57 PM
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Houston, I don't know if that has been done or not. I will certainly ask the gentleman coming out on Thursday to check it. I feel this new person will figure it out.

When Super Tech was here today he turned the furnace on. He said he wanted to check something but I thought he was melting ice off the coil. He sat outside for 30 min with a tool hooked on to outer unit and watched the dials on his meter looking thing. When I asked if he had fixed it he said it wouldn't freeze up again but that it would never work right until I had new duct work put in. As I sit here typing it sounds like it does the few hours it does before a freeze up. When I told Super Tech that I was going to have another set of eyes look at it he couldn't get out of here fast enough. He said "well the numbers are going to look off to him because of how I had to set it to keep it working". I assume he was talking about the work he was doing on the outer unit. Something about super heat being set differently or ignored?? I then asked him if he had done anything that would make it wear out sooner. Would I be replacing the unit sooner because of all the tinkering he is doing to keep it working? He said "no, I didn't flood it." What ever that means.

Houston, they are out here every other week for this makes the second summer. A different tech every time. One says too much refrigerant and takes some out, the next trip someone says not enough and puts some back in. (As in this trip, he added some where as Friday the tech that came out took some off.) Then last summer they owned up to the N coil under the house was not going to work and they put the A coil in. The last thing he said was it was going to cost 15K to put a new heater in so that they could get better circulation around the A coil and new duct work.

Thanks for the information. I will pass it along to the new guy for sure. Feel free to offer up any other suggestions you think might be helpful.
 
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Old 06-16-15, 08:57 PM
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I would definitely use a manometer to check the external static pressure.

If they know the ESP and they have the furnace manual they can look up the amount of airflow.

You want 350 to 400 cfm per ton.

This is an example from a Carrier 58PAV furnace...

 
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Old 06-19-15, 06:17 AM
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Second Opinion guy just left. I gave him two tasks. 1)Check to see if I had proper air flow and/or Find the problem. 2)Inform me whether all the tinkering the other company has done over the past two years diminished the life expectancy of my unit.

He said airflow was adequate. He discovered that the coil was cocked up two inches on one end. He fixed that. He said the main problem is that they did not use a TXV as recommended by the company that makes my unit. He said my pressure should be at 12 and it is twice that. I informed him that when Super Tech left the last thing he said was to tell the second opinion guy that the numbers are going to be off because of what he had to do to keep it from freezing. New guy says, yes, I see what he is doing but he wouldn't have to do that if he used the proper valve. I asked him again if they have damaged my system and he said no but we need to fix it soon. I asked him why they did not suggest this to begin with and he said either they don't know how to install them or they are too cheap to use them.

I am super excited at the prospect of finally having this fixed. I am, however, battered and bruised and very skeptical. Any thoughts?
 
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Old 06-19-15, 05:04 PM
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Sorry to hear that you have so many problems with your AC. Frozen pipe is a very common AC problem, in most cases, as mentioned by skaggs..that can be and should be fixed with one call. I have a feeling the system was never installed right to begin with. that's why those AC techs are now trying to patch it up and hope the problem can be fixed without taking the whole thing down. All I can tell you is that AC can run perfectly with or without TXV. If they install the TXV free, let them do it. It may fix the problem, but still just a maybe. You have several experts here trying to help you, If you can provide more test numbers here, some one may come up a solution:
So try to get these test numbers when the system is running: In house air temp-drop, outside condenser air temp-diff, (ask tech for the following) gauge pressures, subcool and superheat.
 
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Old 06-19-15, 06:58 PM
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Ugh...that's what I thought. Second Opinion guy seemed to know what he was doing. He realized where he is in the situation. He is hired, basically, to make my air work correctly, write a statement as to why it is not working correctly along with supply me with all the evidence and numbers you mentioned in the last sentence so that I can then go back to the company that has been out here non stop for two years and get them to pay his bill, or portion of it anyway, so that I can be done with the company that can't fix it. I asked Second Op guy if he was sure this would fix my problem as I was done throwing money away. I asked him several times. He assured me it would.

The super heat, sub cool, all that stuff you mentioned, he sat at my table and showed me on his ipad what my system was doing in real time and explained how messed up it was. I explained to him that the other tech said he messed all that up to keep it from freezing. He said he could see that. If, and only if, I understood him right, Second Op guy said that the other guy sent refrigerant to the other coil in an attempt to keep them heated and from freezing.

I only hope that this new guy is right. I can't imagine anyone wanting to take this mess over if they didn't think they could fix it. He already knows how mad I am and promises me this will fix it. If it doesn't...oh boy...

All the previous work has been done free by the company that put it in. Although they bill me, I always call and insist that it is still under warranty and they waive it. The last bill waived was $500 and they were here 10 minutes. This new guy is costing me. But if it fixes it then it's worth it. He was here for 2 1/2 hours tearing into everything and fixing the cocked up coil and testing the system. He is putting the TXV and a filter in and balancing everything for $750 total for all work done. I will go back to the original company and ask for his fees to be reimbursed if this works. Their fix is 15k worth of duct work...Wish me luck!

You guys have been super helpful and kind to a dumb blond like me. Thanks for letting me vent and holding my hand. Wish you were my AC guys! I will get the number from the new guy and post them as soon as I get them. I will be getting them to take to the old company anyway.
 
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Old 06-19-15, 08:54 PM
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Is this condenser a single speed model?
 
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