My apology- thought this was a do it yourself forum

Closed Thread

  #1  
Old 08-22-15, 05:21 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 14
My apology- thought this was a do it yourself forum

Many years ago i got tired of paying incompetent repairman to work on my stuff. I fix everything myself. Been doing this before the internet came along. Cars, boats appliances you name it. These forums have made it a little easier. First time i was refused help in any forum. But thanks, I figured it out.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-22-15, 05:44 AM
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 10,986
When were you refused help? What was your question?
 
  #3  
Old 08-22-15, 07:19 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New England
Posts: 10,318
Likes Received: 12
ferdly, sorry you were offended, but if you notice the correction on that closed thread was pointed as much towards the answers you received as well as the question. AC systems dealing with Freon (and I'm not an HVAC pro) are watched very carefully to be sure they follow the rules as stated.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ai...e-problem.html

Otherwise you have asked and been answered in a respectable manner. OK to ask why, just don't get mad at the whole forum due to one touchy topic.

Bud
 
  #4  
Old 08-22-15, 07:37 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
These forums have helped me out many times and that's why I wanted to be a moderator and help out where I can. I consider myself pretty good at home repairs but will not touch a refrigerant system. There's too much that can go wrong and releasing refrigerant into the atmosphere is a criminal offense. Hope that makes any sense at all. Some jobs are best left to a professional.
 
  #5  
Old 08-23-15, 06:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 14
Once again I apologise

In no way was I offended, just a little disappointed. After all rules are rules and I must admit I had not read the sticky. This unit has been a problem since I purchased it years ago. Long story behind that. After repeated attempts over a span of a year with 4 different technicians coming out at a charge of 200 a pop plus parts. I was told every thing from too much freon to to little freon to bad compressor. I decided to fix it myself. Bought gauges and downloaded goodman service manual. Read the manual and proceeded to troubleshoot. Within less than an hour found the leak. That was five years ago.
 
  #6  
Old 08-23-15, 06:41 AM
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 10,986
ferdly, I read the original thread. I can see why you were disappointed. There is a thin line between DIY & professional work. I don't think that the thread should have been closed either.
 
  #7  
Old 08-23-15, 06:54 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New England
Posts: 10,318
Likes Received: 12
@ferdly "After repeated attempts over a span of a year with 4 different technicians coming out at a charge of 200 a pop plus parts." I can really relate to that as it happens all too often. Glad you are back.

Getting accustomed to the forum and learning the who's who in each field takes some time, but well worth it when you can find advice you know you can trust. I try to help here, but I have learned far more than I have shared.

Unfortunately air conditioners are not all that common up here in cold country so I can't help beyond some PR conversation.

Best
Bud
 
  #8  
Old 08-23-15, 07:56 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 14
Not a big deal

I can see how he thought I was a professional. Especially when i gave pressure readings. Although 410a does not require a cert, there are people who should not mess with the stuff or even pick up a screwdriver. I am a member of quite a few forums, In fact one forum helped me locate and fix a leak in my boat. Couldnt believe one leaky rivet could let in so much water. I really appreciate these forums and you guys for keeping it organized like you do. I have been in forums where all they do is argue and fight, so rules are necessary.
 
  #9  
Old 08-23-15, 09:25 AM
HVAC RETIRED's Avatar
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wisconsin USA
Posts: 715
I've been an HVAC licensed technician & then a Contractor since the mid 1970's; in my opinion...:

When a licensed PRO gives the pressure readings to a customer they should be able to list those pressures on any HVAC Forum; all other HVAC Forums permit it.

I have witnessed over the many decades the horribly poor service that HVAC customers have to deal with, they need all the help we can provide for them.

Many times the pressures are the only data we have to work with; to deny that data is to leave the customer at the mercy of a lot of incompetent & some rip-off artists.

Please; I ask that you have a meeting & reconsider a ruling that greatly reduces our ability to help the helpless HVAC consumer/customers resolve their costly problems. I do not view listing pressures as encouraging illegal actions by customer/consumers.
 
  #10  
Old 08-23-15, 10:00 AM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 50,980
Likes Received: 162
I can see how he thought I was a professional. Especially when i gave pressure readings
You didn't appear to be a professional to me and I doubt that Greg thought that either.

When a licensed PRO gives the pressure readings to a customer they should be able to list those pressures on any HVAC Forum; all other HVAC Forums permit it.
Are those the same forums that won't help non technicians ? I've been to many of those HVAC forums and those guys, for the most part, won't deal with the public.

The powers to be at DIY have set policy and it's up to us to enforce it whether we agree with it or not.
 
  #11  
Old 08-23-15, 11:00 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
Although 410a does not require a cert,
That all depends on where you're from. You can't forget that people from all over the world read/write to these forums.

Where I am (Manitoba, Canada) a certificate IS required to handle 410a (I am certified). Although 410a is not an ozone depleter, it is hazardous to the environment. It's noted as a green house gas and is considered to be upwards of 16 times worse than the effect that C02 has.

Our refrigeration laws are A LOT tougher up here!
 
  #12  
Old 08-23-15, 03:11 PM
HVAC RETIRED's Avatar
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wisconsin USA
Posts: 715
Are those the same forums that won't help non technicians ? I've been to many of those HVAC forums and those guys, for the most part, won't deal with the public.

The powers to be at DIY have set policy and it's up to us to enforce it whether we agree with it or not.
I am on the committee of the top HVAC forum anywhere and help HVAC owners & users solve their problems. they can use pressures...
 
  #13  
Old 08-23-15, 03:50 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 50,980
Likes Received: 162
Are you talking about HVAC-talk ?

Forum: Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. AOP Residential HVAC
 
  #14  
Old 08-23-15, 05:17 PM
Shadeladie's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: PA - USA
Posts: 4,210
Likes Received: 22
That HVAC-Talk forum also says this, in the big yellow box that you see before you register:

Welcome to HVAC-Talk.com, a non-DIY site and the ultimate Source for HVAC Information & Knowledge Sharing for the industry professional! Here you can join over 150,000 HVAC Professionals & enthusiasts from around the world discussing all things related to HVAC/R.
 
  #15  
Old 08-23-15, 06:10 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 750
I feel for you ferdly. I was in a situation last year where I was trying to troubleshoot a heat pump after two technicians failed to diagnose it. What I found was a brick wall when it comes to the HVAC community and their willingness to help "amateurs" on the internet.

As far as I am concerned, if you are going to deny information to troubleshoot HVAC issues because of "legal issues", this forum better start cracking down on about half of the advice that is given. In many jurisdictions you are not allowed to work on plumbing and electrical. Structural issues should only really be addressed by professionals, etc, etc. It is as though the HVAC trade is a part of a secret society and does not want anyone else to have information that could possibly result in a homeowner saving themselves a service call.

In the end, I did get my issue resolved. I got my refrigerant handling licence, and bought all the equipment necessary to service and install heat pumps. That is something I never would have done if I could have just gotten some simple information, but since I have all the equipment now, you can bet I am going to use it, and potentially take work away from local HVAC contractors that would have otherwise had the jobs I may end up doing. Instead of preventing me from working on my own heatpump, these techs have driven me to learn what I need to know myself and do the work anyway. I have never seen another trade so secretive.
 
  #16  
Old 08-23-15, 07:44 PM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 2,104
HVAC trade secretive? I guess you never heard of Youtube? What good would it do the HO to tell them how to charge a unit. Unless they did what you did and speed $$$$$, get an EPA card, learn how to use them and learn the principles of thermodynamics.
Wouldn't have been cheaper to call a Pro?

Who was preventing you from working on your heat pump??

BTW, good luck on your new HVAC business.
 
  #17  
Old 08-23-15, 10:19 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,448
Likes Received: 9
While I generally agree with the policy of not giving detailed instructions on how to work on the sealed system I also think that some of the moderators are a bit too quick to close any thread that even hints of working on the sealed system.

The pressure-temperature relationship of all the common refrigerants are readily available on the Internet as well as a plethora of books available at any public library so refusing to allow any questions or comments concerning the same IS being overly secretive in my opinion. Just because we might discuss such topics as pressures, temperatures, superheat and subcooling does not mean that any of us advocates or encourages a person with no training to work on their A/C or refrigeration system.

And I agree with Keith that there is MUCH information disseminated in the various electrical,plumbing and automotive forums that could result in unlawful or dangerous activities yet little to no oversight at all from the management.
 
  #18  
Old 08-24-15, 04:02 AM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 750
skaggsje, even the info available on youtube is sparse unless you already know exactly what you are looking for. In my particular case, all I was looking for is trouble shooting adivce to narrow down what the problem could have been. None of which would have involved touching the gas in any way. Even questions as simple as diagnosing sensors or relays would get no help if the 'experts' thought you were working on your own unit.

I dont even need to look at your profile to tell you are in the HVAC business, I know that just based on your reaction. I feel the same way about peole in the carpentry trade, but at the end of the day, I know people are going to do the work themselves, so I would rather help someone do it right than see someone get hurt due to poor workmanship.
 
  #19  
Old 08-24-15, 06:47 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 2,104
Hi Keith, I would be more than happy to help you or anybody with some parts of the system. I just don't want to discuss charging procedures on a public form. I don't want anybody to damage a $2K condenser or injure them selfs.
 
  #20  
Old 08-24-15, 07:01 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 2,608
Originally Posted by PJMax
The powers to be at DIY have set policy and it's up to us to enforce it whether we agree with it or not.
I assume the moderators & admin(s) talk? With how fast the internet has changed access to information it might be a good idea to have another look at that policy to determine whether it makes sense to rise above the mis-information (or lack of) and help your members, or send them to Youtube to take their chances.
 
  #21  
Old 08-24-15, 08:07 AM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 750
Skaggsje, what I don't understand is what the big deal is with giving charging procedures? Yes, I understand the hazards of the gas, and potential for injury, but that applies to most topics discussed in this forum. At the end of the day, people are going to do things themselves wheather they get the help they need or not. This is especially true on the US where you only need to take an online corse and can then go to Walmart and buy the gas. Not giving people proper information is not going to prevent them from doing the work.
 
  #22  
Old 08-24-15, 08:20 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
so I would rather help someone do it right than see someone get hurt due to poor workmanship
LOL!
I remember seeing a thread somewhere about a diy'er suggesting you don't need expensive evacuation pumps or gauges to install a mini split system. Just hook up the refrigerant at one end, open the other end... and let it run. Once you see refrigerant coming out the other end the system is all purged.

While I generally agree that PARTS of the hvac community should remain closed to the public for the above reason (the environment is a global thing and not restricted to one's own back yard), it seems to me a bit silly to kill all discussion involving refrigeration theory. DIY sites are not just about homeowners trying to save money. They're about learning too..... learning among other things, that handling a refrigerant in such a way as listed above, is not a good thing. Sites like this could go a long way to clearing up some of the misinformation which floats around on the net, instead of trying to stifle it and thereby allowing it to continue.

I would urge the site to rethink this policy. There is nothing wrong or illegal about discussing any and all aspects of refrigeration theory, and discussing it does not mean the site is partaking in illegal activity if someone should take it further.
 

Last edited by Bob Sanders; 08-24-15 at 08:35 AM.
  #23  
Old 08-24-15, 09:29 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,727
Likes Received: 2
as was stated ..

is EPA technician certification required to service R-410A systems?

No, at this time EPA technician certification (i.e., EPA Section 608 certification) is not required in order to service R-410A systems or other stationary refrigeration and air conditioning systems containing HFCs.


Im looking through the EPA pages to see what a homeowner can actually do..

Like plumbing and other trades I know you can work on your own home without certain licenses. Like running gas pipe etc...

Some here will say call a licensed plumber, where I feel its safer to help the ones that I know they are going to do it themselves anyway..
 
  #24  
Old 08-24-15, 10:56 AM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 750
LOL!
I remember seeing a thread somewhere about a diy'er suggesting you don't need expensive evacuation pumps or gauges to install a mini split system. Just hook up the refrigerant at one end, open the other end... and let it run. Once you see refrigerant coming out the other end the system is all purged.
This is exactly my point. Better to tell people the right way to do something than to let them do something like that thinking it is ok.
 
  #25  
Old 08-24-15, 12:21 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas, California
Posts: 1,443
That's a good idea, how come I never thought about that. In fact, I always do that to purge my gauge set before I hook it up to the condenser valves.
 
  #26  
Old 08-24-15, 02:13 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
That's a good idea, how come I never thought about that. In fact, I always do that to purge my gauge set before I hook it up to the condenser valves.
It was a common way to do things back in the day. Today however it is illegal to knowingly or purposely vent ozone depleting/green house gas refrigerants. If you get caught you will be fined regardless of any certification you may or may not hold.
 
  #27  
Old 08-24-15, 02:25 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
No, at this time EPA technician certification (i.e., EPA Section 608 certification) is not required in order to service R-410A systems or other stationary refrigeration and air conditioning systems containing HFCs.
As stated above, It's important to understand that there are different laws for different places. An EPA card (or equivalent) may not be required in the USA but it is in Canada. In Canada you are also not allowed to "top off". You are not allowed to use disposable refrigerant bottles. You must file every year the list of places you have serviced.... and a whole host of other neat little rules.

About the only refrigerant which flies under the radar right now in Canada are the r290 based ones. They are not looked at too seriously at the moment because they do not pose a threat to the environment.
 
  #28  
Old 08-24-15, 02:31 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 691
Likes Received: 1
I believe purging a gauge line would fall under incidental.
 
  #29  
Old 08-24-15, 03:51 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
He's talking about purging an AC
 
  #30  
Old 08-24-15, 04:01 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 691
Likes Received: 1
Was hoping he was kidding on that part.
 
  #31  
Old 08-24-15, 04:42 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 487
Likes Received: 6
You can go to your local Wally World and buy 134a for recharging AC in autos with no restrictions or license required in CA. no less! And I can almost guarantee the people using those recharge kits have no clue what they are doing and could surely use some guidance.
 
  #32  
Old 08-24-15, 04:43 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
Well, the noose is going to tighten on HFC's (r410a, r134... etc) anyway. On April 15, 2015 Canada, USA, and Mexico submitted an amendment to the Montreal Protocol to reduce consumption and production of HFC's. (There is a big green house gas issue with them... some HFC's are thousands of times worse than C02)

R410a is already (heavily) regulated here and my guess is that it won't be long before it happens in the USA
 
  #33  
Old 08-24-15, 04:46 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
You can go to your local Wally World and buy 134a for recharging AC in autos with no restrictions or license required in CA. no less! And I can almost guarantee the people using those recharge kits have no clue what they are doing and could surely use some guidance.
Read my above comment (we missed each other by a minute!)
 
  #34  
Old 08-24-15, 04:59 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 750
It seems for the most part we can all agree that people are going to work on their own units regardless of what they may or may not know about the hazards. Hopefully the admins on here can see the light and realize it is better to advise people in the correct procedures rather than letting them go about something halfcocked after not getting the info they have asked for.
 
  #35  
Old 08-24-15, 05:25 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 691
Likes Received: 1
I think for pure efficiencies and ease of use the older refrigerants (12,22) are much better.Like me going the way of the dinosaurs though.
 
  #36  
Old 08-24-15, 05:31 PM
HVAC RETIRED's Avatar
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wisconsin USA
Posts: 715
As I stated before on this thread: I've been an HVAC licensed technician & then a Contractor since the mid 1970's; in my opinion...:

When a licensed PRO gives the pressure readings to a customer they should be able to list those pressures on any HVAC Forum; all other HVAC Forums (usually) permit it.

I have witnessed over the many decades the horribly poor service that HVAC customers have to deal with, they need all the help we can provide for them.

I see no problem whatever listing the pressures that a licensed Tech has given to the customer.
 
  #37  
Old 08-24-15, 06:00 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 14
wow this forum took on a life of its own

I am as worried about C02 as the next guy. However we have much bigger issues. Our planet is being deforested so fast makes my head spin. Chinas burning of coal to the point they literally cant see the hand if front of their face. But whether I call a so called qualified expert out to service my equipment as long as I use the same procedures and caution they do to do the job, it should be my choice. If they want to pass a law saying everyone wears red underwear ,then by god you better have several pairs handy. I am the one who paid for the equipment in the first place. I had to fix my septic tank because the so called experts without even coming out said its the drainfield it wasnt the drainfield. Superlube put the wrong fluid in my new cars transmission ( not gonna go into the labor they hire.) I now change trasmission fluid myself. Never even heard of cvt oil until then. I guess i can go on and on. Maybe its just me and bad luck seems to follow me, but today no one troubleshoots anything, they just want to change parts. I love to troubleshoot and figure things out. I am a technician by trade, although not an a/c technician. I am not angry just stating facts as i see them. However I feel if this site wants to restrict information, it is fine with me. It is their site and they do help a lot of people from what i can see. I just didnt read the sticky.
 
  #38  
Old 08-24-15, 06:35 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 186
It seems for the most part we can all agree that people are going to work on their own units regardless of what they may or may not know about the hazards.
Agreed. I in fact just installed my own heat pump a few weeks ago and I am not an HVAC tech (I'm a power engineer). Now I did get my certification but that was mainly because I purchased the HP in the USA and drove it across the border and thought I might need it with the border guys. I didn't. In fact the only question they asked to my surprise was whether it was for business or personal.

At any rate, you can buy complete HP's and AC's on line and they come with a complete set of install instructions from first to final step. The place where I bought it even honors the warranty on a diy install so long as it is checked and initially started by a certified tech.

Now to be fair, I did spend a boatload of money on the right tools. I figured that I'll be doing the servicing as well so there is a payback involved.
 
  #39  
Old 08-24-15, 07:03 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 750
Exactly my thoughts when I decided to spend the money on my tools as well. I bought two heat pumps from a Canadian company online. They also warranty them as long as a tech does the initial start up. The first one I bought had no issues at all, it was just undersized for my space. The second one was the next size up and it was not performing as good as the first. I paid two techs a total of $500 to recharge it and diagnose it, and still had the same problem. That's when I went to the Internet to try and troubleshoot it so the next time I had a tech come they could spend more time on the potential issue than having me pay for them to diagnose everything.

That's when I ended up getting no help and got my card ($200) and the tools ($1,500), including a recovery unit and recycling tank. I paid $2900 for the heat pumps for a total investment of around $5000 with the tank of 410a I bought. I was quoted more than that to install one heatpump by a local hvac tech, so in my eyes, I am still ahead and I have an extra heatpump to boot. I will make the money back on the tools by servicing my units myself and installing for friends and family.

I did get my heatpump working after doing a recovery and recharge myself. For whatever reason, the previous techs did not do a proper job and that was the reason for the poor performance.
 
  #40  
Old 08-24-15, 07:15 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 14
haha

Did not want to say anything. Thats exactly what i did. However I sat the compressor outside ran the copper lines and wiring. I then installed the blower unit. I called in technician to braze the copper lines and install the txv. vacuum down and add some freon and like you said test out the unit. I would have done that myself but didnt want to invest in pump or welding torch. Cant braze with propane. Plus the state inspected it when it was done. Last time I found the leak at the txv where he over tightened it. Using soap I found the leak. Real slow leak it took several minutes to make a bubble. This time also found problem with txv. The txv bulb was mounted to pipe at the weld. Only 1/4 of bulb was making contact with copper tube. Unfortunately because welds were so close together that really was the best place. So i took some aluminum foil wrapped around tube now i am getting full contact. This however changed my superheat and subcool readings. Thats what i was trying to determine. Oh yeah one advantage to doing it myself. I have a whole garage full of tools i have only used once however it is still cheaper than having someone come out and not fix it several times or even once.
 
Closed Thread

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes