Carrier 24ACC6 vs Lennox 14ACX vs Goodman GSX16

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  #1  
Old 07-16-19, 05:45 PM
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Carrier 24ACC6 vs Lennox 14ACX vs Goodman GSX16

Hello All,

Looking to install a central AC unit for the first time. 2.5 year old house, ~2800 sq ft. I've called a lot of contractors and they've all recommended either 2.5 or 3 ton size for my AC (based on the 1 ton per 1000 sq ft rule). Have decided to go with 3 ton size and chosen a contractor to do the install. We also have a Lennox furnace (63000 BTUH output, 66000 BTUH input) that the builder originally installed.

He has three quotes:

Carrier 24ACC6 - $3500
https://www.carrier.com/residential/...ioners/24acc6/
He said he'd include a Carrier cased coil with this price even though it's normally $100 more. I thought cased coils had become common for evaporator coils but anyway.

Lennox 14ACX - $2650
https://www.lennox.com/products/heat...itioners/14acx

Goodman GSX16 - $2925 (can maybe drop another $100)
https://www.goodmanmfg.com/products/.../16-seer-gsx16

All come with 10 years parts and 2 years labour warranty.

It's the same contractor installing either one of these units so do you guys have any recommendation on which unit I should go with?

Much appreciated.
 

Last edited by Kanvict; 07-16-19 at 06:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-16-19, 06:11 PM
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None, as the contractor isn’t sizing the equipment right at all.
Brand means little.
The quality of the installation, design and sizing included, will determine how well the unit runs.
A larger unit isn’t nor should be considered any sort of upgrade.
 
  #3  
Old 07-16-19, 06:22 PM
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I've read online articles recommending bigger sizes (4-5 tons) for the same square footage as mine. I've discussed this discrepancy with some of the local contractors but they all said that's for different climates where ACs run for 10-12 months of the year. We only run them for 2-4 months here. A family friend also used this same contractor and had the 3 ton Carrier unit mentioned above installed in his 3000 sq ft home 3 years ago.
 
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Old 07-16-19, 06:35 PM
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Sizing isn’t done via square footage.
Is this in the US?
 
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Old 07-16-19, 07:19 PM
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No, Ontario, Canada. Only 2 out of around 20 contractors (most in my area, some in other major cities an hour away) that I spoke to did anything besides recommending off sq ft. They looked at where the sun rises/sets, window locations and sizes in all rooms. One of the two recommended 3 ton and the other recommended 3.5. All the rest recommended 2.5 or 3.
 
  #6  
Old 07-16-19, 07:36 PM
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Sizing isn’t an opinion or rule of thumb.
On another site I follow, a Canadian recently had new hvac equipment installed and is now dealing with humidity issues because the equipment wasn’t sized right. Indoor humidity runs as high as 70%.
So any one of the brands you listed could run great or be junk.
Hvac isn’t like looking up the best brands of tvs or refrigerators. It’s assembled in the field.
So unless they are willing to size correctly I’d pass.
Your looking for the Canadian version of manual J.

HVAC Load Calculation - Maunualj - Whole House Loadcalc
 
  #7  
Old 07-16-19, 10:02 PM
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Yes, I read about the manual J calculation in my research before calling any contractor. But how can it be that every single contractor not just in my city, but in neighbouring major cities as well, doesn't use it and recommended me approximately the same size? I'd have to pass on every single contractor then.

I suppose I can do the calculation myself to be sure (or ask my builder if they did it upon completion of the house) but don't I require certain software for it?
 
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Old 07-17-19, 04:11 AM
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It requires software and experience.
You could hire an outside engineer to do it.
I suppose your local companies don’t care about doing work properly. There is literally no rule of thumb or table to size equipment. If they tell you there is, they are guessing with your money.
 
  #9  
Old 07-17-19, 06:21 AM
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I just had that Goodman installed here in NJ. 3 Ton unit, 2800 sq ft home. It handles our 90 degree days just fine. Keeps my whole house at 74 with on problem. This was a replacement for an old Carrier (45 years old). The house was built in 65 and faces south. Descent amount of shade in the front so my sun load isn't that bad. The installer replaced everything except the duct work. It runs quiet and so far has cut my electric bill in half. Very happy with it so far, and the price was spot on too. So just giving the Goodman a thumbs up here.
 
  #10  
Old 07-17-19, 06:59 AM
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Im also in ontario and looking for a replacement air conditioner.

I am experiencing the same issue regarding sizing. The contractor tells you what size they recomend, without doing any calculations. If you dare question how the size was determined you are told they know from experience. You get the impression if you ask again the price goes up.

Further we are told many times that the work of the contractor is at least as important as the equipment we select, but we simply dont KNOW how careful the contractor would be, despite thier claims. I was once an apprentice locomotive mechanic. The good mechanics replaced the difficult assemblies, turbochargers, compressors, air brake components, the less skilled mechanics replaced filters and fluids. To make matters worse, even reputable compnies can at any time sub contract their installations. Seems its a roll of the dice.
 
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Old 07-19-19, 12:53 PM
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tomf63 Thanks for that recommendation. Did your contractor(s) do any load calculations (manual J) or were you just looking for ACs that were the same size as your old unit? The front of our house faces east and the back (which has the most/biggest windows) faces west. I don't know exactly what the etiquette of this forum is so I apologize if it's wrong of me to ask but out of curiosity, how much were you charged for your AC installation in NJ? That Goodman model seems to be mentioned in several "top 10 ACs" or "best ACs" websites. I don't know about its Consumer Reports rating, however.

Learn4necessity Yeap, I've called about 20-25 contractors now, all within 3-4 different major cities. Told the same thing by all but two, who at least checked my window locations/sizes and sunrise/sunset orientation first. I decided on the contractor that I did simply because a family friend from the same neighbourhood used them three years ago and their AC is still working fine. It helps that they are the least expensive too but now I'm not sure if it's because they cheap out on their labour or something else. For e.g. one contractor told me that you should always pre-charge the copper pipes with nitrogen before filling up the R410a refrigerant but the contractor I'm thinking of going with said they only do one vacuum flush. None of their online reviews seem to indicate any customers upset with poor installations though so I suppose I'll have to just hope for the best.
 
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Old 07-19-19, 05:01 PM
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While sizing be square footage isn't ideal by a long shot, you're very unlikely to get a grossly oversized unit when size is based on one ton per 1000 sq ft.

sq ft per ton in ontario canada for a house could be anywhere from 600 to 1200.

Factors that can increase capacity required per sq ft.
1. House being smaller
2. Bungalow
3. East/west exposure
4. No wall insulation, poorly insulated attic, leaky
5. Being detached
6. Lack of shading.
7. High ceilings

Some 1200 sq ft homes with east/west exposure and no wall insulation need 2 tons. There are lot of them in the toronto area, pre-war construction, many double brick.

Have the same style/shape of house but north/south with insulated walls, new windows, and it would need under 1.5 tons.


2800 sq ft home would have 2.5 or 3 tons in most cases. Worst case scenario, 3.5 tons.

You will never find a perfect residential contractor who will do everything by the book.

Look into doing your own load calculation. (canadian version is different and software isn't cheap - you can do an american manual j for $50 using hvac-calc.)

Find a contractor who's open to your input. See if he bothers to measure ductwork, ask questions about insulation, etc.

You really need to educate yourself on what's involved in doing the job right and advocate for yourself. (for example, they have to set the blower speed to get proper airflow, factory setting may not incorrect. there are specific procedures for getting the refrigerant charge right. )

Contractors are incentivized to oversize rather than undersize. Load calculations take time. Improper refrigerant charge, airflow, leaky ducts reduce delivered cooling capacity - oversizing covers that up.

It's easier to just slightly oversize; they don't get complaints when it's too big and the thermostat has to be turned to 22c to dehumidify sufficiently and or the utility bills are high

They will if the unit won't cool enough.

"I have x years of experience so load calculation not needed" really means: "I use brute force and ignorance to satisfy my customers"
 
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Old 07-19-19, 09:04 PM
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Just a warning, but the various consumer report style ratings for hvac equipment are absolutely pointless and of no real value. They don’t take anything important into account.
For example, I could show you two identical Goodman units that you mentioned. One could be great, the other junk that never ran right.
The difference is the design, selection and installation.
A lot of consumers have brand burned into their mind and find it very difficult to not pay attention to. But for hvac, that’s what has to happen.
The only thing I’d consider with brand name is making sure there was a good supply of parts locally, if any internals are proprietary. If it’s a bottom line unit most all of them use the same guts anyway.
 
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Old 07-21-19, 10:31 AM
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I see a 16 SEER Carrier and Goodman and what looks like a 14SEER Lennox.
I really like Carrier over Goodman or Lennox.

What air handler or furnace are you getting with these bids?
 
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Old 07-22-19, 04:08 PM
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user 10 Thank you for the information. I just had another contractor do their own heat loss/gain evaluation and, according to their calculations, our house is just over the limit for a 3 ton condenser size. So they recommend 3.5 ton as the ideal size (so that makes 2 out of about 25 contractors with a 3.5 ton recommendation). However, our furnace blower that the builder installed (Lennox EL195UH070XE36B) has a Nominal Add-On Cooling Capacity of 1.5-3.0 tons so we then have to go with a 3 ton condenser. This contractor's prices are expensive for me, unfortunately, and they only carry Lennox and Amana but at least they added to my knowledge of AC systems.
None of the contractors I spoke with asked about my duct-work or insulation. Main questions were age and square footage of house.

roughneck77 I appreciate the continued help! I have decided to go with the Carrier 24ACC6 in the 3 ton size as it's the same unit my family friend had installed by the same contractor I've decided to go with. It's the only one of the three units that comes with a cased evaporator N-coil (though I have been told it doesn't make that much of a difference in performance compared to an uncased or A-coil).

Houston204 I believe the Lennox 14ACX is supposed to go up to 16 SEER but, regardless, we've decided to go with the 3 ton Carrier 24ACC6. The contractor said he's going to install a 3.5 ton cased evaporator N-coil (model CNPVP4217ALA). I called a local Carrier branch and asked whether going 0.5-1 ton bigger on the evaporator coil compared to the condenser is fine and they confirmed to me that it's fine and done for better efficiency. (Google provided me with different opinions on the matter).

However, I did forget to ask them if the evaporator coil size is fine for our furnace's cooling capacity or if that limit is for the condenser.
Our furnace (Lennox EL195UH070XE36B) was installed by the builder and, according to its online manual, it has a Nominal Add-On Cooling Capacity of 1.5-3.0 tons. So I'm a little confused about whether the 3.5 ton evaporator coil and 3 ton condenser unit will run to their best efficiency with it.
 
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Old 07-22-19, 06:48 PM
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That furnace is rated for 1200 cfm at .6" WC. This drops to 1145CFM at .7"wc.
Should be fine if your ductwork is good.
 
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Old 07-22-19, 07:08 PM
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. I just had another contractor do their own heat loss/gain evaluation and, according to their calculations
What kind of calculation?

I can't see a house like this needing 3.5 tons when it heats on a 63k output furnace.

I missed the 2.5 year old part.

New houses in ontario are very well insulated with low e-windows and there's a very good chance 2.5 tons will work fine for you.

The idea is to get long cycles for dehumidification - in very hot weather properly sized won't shut off.

You should still have the plans. A load calculation had to be done to size the furnace/ducts for building permits -> there's a small chance you may be able get the results from your builder or even municipality if they have the permits, etc filed.
 
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Old 07-22-19, 07:28 PM
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Houston204 Cheers for the response!
I suppose I will have to determine if my ductwork is good then. Have had no heating problems during the winter seasons so far.

Our furnace blower's max air volume is apparently 1380 cfm, according to its manual. But the 3.5 ton CNPVP4217ALA evaporator coil's cfm ratings seem to be 1050,1400,1750.

I'm still wondering whether one of these 3.0 ton cased evaporator N-coils would not have been a better fit for our furnace and condenser: CNPVP3617ALA, CNPVP3717ALA. They each have the same cfm ratings (900,1200,1500). Unless I'm looking at this the wrong way, these seem to align better with our furnace, no? Only differences between these two coils is their cooling capacities and heights.

Of course, the 3.5 ton CNPVP4217ALA has a greater cooling capacity than both of those. But I've called 3-4 HVAC contractors in the past couple hours and they've all said that if the furnace is rated for 3 ton cooling capacity, then a bigger evaporator coil would not get enough air and could freeze up. This is my main concern.
 
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Old 07-22-19, 07:45 PM
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What kind of calculation?
It was their own heat loss/gain calculation. The inputted a variety of information into an excel file someone from their company had created:
- length, width, and ceiling heights of the house
- all window locations, orientations to the sun, and their sizes
- where the sun rises (front elevation) and sets (back) in relation to our house

Through that excel file's calculations, the rep determined that the values for our house for heating and cooling were ~62k and ~37k, respectively. 3.0 ton was good for the range of 32k (if I recall correctly) to 36k. That's why they recommended that 3.5 ton (36k to 42k) would be ideal but 3.0 would be okay. But of course our furnace's cooling capacity only goes to 3.0 ton.

You should still have the plans. A load calculation had to be done to size the furnace/ducts for building permits -> there's a small chance you may be able get the results from your builder or even municipality if they have the permits, etc filed.
I tried getting them from my builder last week but the receptionist brushed me off, stating they don't have them and to find a company that'll do it for me. I'm trying to get in touch with the builder's on-site supervisor or engineer (or the municipality if it comes to it) to see if they would have the records.
 
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Old 07-22-19, 08:37 PM
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An average external static pressure reading is .5 to .7 inches.
That 1380 is at 0.00 inches. If you put any ductwork on the system it will more than 0.

In my neck of the woods I want 350 CFM per ton.
450 CFM per ton in my area would cause very high indoor humidity.
 
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Old 07-23-19, 07:26 AM
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The load calculations fan be fudged by putting lower r-values, wrong window type, having air leakage higher than normal. You would have to see all the input variables to know it's been done accurately.

Modern houses here are very tight. Some older versions of software may not calculate air leakage accurately - definitions of "average", "tight" can be out of date.

Assuming it's a 2 story with normal ceiling height, do not get a 3.5 ton, you'll have problems controlling humidity.
 
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Old 07-23-19, 07:43 AM
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Assuming it's a 2 story with normal ceiling height, do not get a 3.5 ton, you'll have problems controlling humidity.
user 10 Yeah, I figure at some point I will also just have to trust the recommendation of all the other 20+ contractors that advised to get a 3.0 ton condenser, even if they did just give said advice over square footage and age.

I'm still unsure about the evaporator coil being 3.5 ton though, especially when the manual of our furnace states a cooling capacity of 1.5-3 tons. I don't want my coil to freeze up as a result of the blower not being able to provide enough air to it.

In my neck of the woods I want 350 CFM per ton.
450 CFM per ton in my area would cause very high indoor humidity.
Houston204 1-2 contractors in our area have told me the figure of 400 cfm per ton. I apologize if I haven't understood you properly but are you saying that even if the evaporator coil is rated at a bigger size (3.5 ton) than what the furnace can supposedly handle (1.5-3 tons) as well as the condenser unit (3 ton), the overall system can still work at max efficiency?
 
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Old 07-23-19, 09:06 AM
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It's normal to have a larger tonnage rated coil than the condenser to be able to hit the seer rating.

The airflow is set by condenser capacity, not the coil. Large coil is actually less likely to freeze up.
 
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Old 07-23-19, 04:53 PM
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Thank you. Received the same message from my chosen installer now too:

The outdoor unit being 3.0 ton is the relevant factor here. The sizing of the furnace and the blower's cfm is related to the cooling capacity of the compressor, and never affected by the size of the coil. The evap coil being a bigger tonnage is in fact 100% beneficial and an extra feature in this case, because it is additional surface area where it actually increases the cooling efficiency. It is the compressor cooling capacity that is compared against the furnace's blower cooling cfm. All better than good in this case.
It was the conversations with 3-4 other contractors yesterday that confused me. They were insistent that the evaporator coil size had to match the cooling capacity of the furnace. One of them even mentioned that if the evaporator coil and condenser were sized differently to each other, then we wouldn't receive a warranty from the manufacturer. I called Carrier's 1-800 number today to confirm that is not the case.
 
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Old 07-23-19, 05:04 PM
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This can be made very simple.
Ask the installer for the AHRI match number.
This number will show you the efficiency and capacity for information for the combination.

https://www.ahridirectory.org/Search...?ReturnUrl=%2f
 
  #26  
Old 07-26-19, 06:03 AM
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Hello, roughneck77. This is the response I received for that question:
There isn't an AHRI number that reflects your existing furnace in this case. All the AHRI numbers are tested and obtained by each manufacturer separately and so there is no AHRI number that reflects a lennox furnace with a Carrier A/C system or vice versa. But it is known that any furnace with ECM blower, will increase the efficiency (SEER rating) of any A/C system.
I was going through the AHRI directory myself and only found numbers for all three (furnace, AC condenser, AC evaporator coil) units being from the same brand or just the coil being from ADP/Aspen.

Or were you saying to just see if the Carrier condenser and evaporator coil have a match? I searched that myself too out of curiosity and found about 14 entries, each with different Carrier furnace models.
 
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Old 07-26-19, 07:22 AM
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You can get a coil only match ahri reference number. They assume the furnace has an regular inefficient blower motor so the listed SEER will be a point or two lower than what you actually get.

But it can be used to determine that the coil is a correct match.
 
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Old 07-26-19, 10:45 AM
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Thanks. Here's the following response:
The AHRI number for your Carrier outdoor and indoor unit in this case, is 9179163. In case you are curious about this, if I consider an ECM furnace in the equation (a Carrier furnace with the same type ECM blower as your existing Lennox), the AHRI number would be in line with 9179285. The latter number, in fact, better represents your A/C system performance.
9179163
AHRI Type: RCU-A-C
Evaporator Model Number: CNPV*4217AL*+TDR
Furnace Model Number: N/A
Cooling Capacity (A2) - Single or High Stage (95F), btuh: 33600
SEER: 14.00
EER (A2) - Single or High Stage (95F): 11.50
Indoor Full-Load Air Volume Rate (A2 SCFM): 1200

9179285
AHRI Type: RCU-A-CB
Evaporator Model Number: CNPV*4217AL*
Furnace Model Number: 59*P5A080E17**16
Cooling Capacity (A2) - Single or High Stage (95F), btuh: 33000
SEER: 15.50
EER (A2) - Single or High Stage (95F): 12.50
Indoor Full-Load Air Volume Rate (A2 SCFM): 995
 
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Old 07-30-19, 11:56 AM
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Hey all. We had our AC installed. There are some things I wanted to clarify in regards to the install.

Our installers installed the evaporator coil oriented in a way that its front matched the back of the furnace (not front to front as I've typically seen). Their reasoning was because of the two pipes coming out of the furnace near the front face interfering with the coil's copper pipes and case door. Pictures here. I was going over the manual and it mentioned a note (link):
"If coil is not being installed in the standard orientation (front of coil matching front of furnace) then coil must be raised above furnace as specified in Fig. 5."
Perhaps that instruction is only necessary when the furnace width is narrower than the coil width but I still wanted to clarify.
Is there any difference between matching the coil's front to the furnace's front and matching front to back? And, if there is a difference, should a raised transition be used?

Secondly, we noticed our condenser unit installed outside is simply sitting on the metal brackets, not secured to them in any way. The brackets also don't cover the entire length of the AC. Pictures here.
Is there not a danger of the AC vibrating and moving forward, therefore either leading it to fall off OR damage/severe its connections to the copper pipes and wiring coming from inside the house?
 
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