Hydrogen power

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Old 12-05-07, 04:50 PM
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Hydrogen power

Just thought I'd start some stuff, since this seems to be a hot topic nowadays. Hydrogen technology is nothing new. It is viable, nearly free to produce, powerful, and we can't seem to get a grasp on it. We rely on imported gas and diesel and go on our merry way after paying $3.50 a gallon for it. I have seen several vehicles powered by hydrogen with the only byproduct or waste is water! No emissions in either its use nor its production, so where are we?
 
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Old 12-05-07, 07:30 PM
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Help me out here, Larry:


Originally Posted by chandler View Post
......nearly free to produce.......
From anything I know on the subject (which I admit isn't much) it takes more than a little energy, i.e. electricity, to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen. The most likely scenario for getting into hydrogen power is to use nuke-generated electricity to produce. Of course getting enough nuke plants built to do the job isn't likely given the vast number of anti-nukies. It'll happen eventually when the world gets dark enough and cold enough, sometime in the next century.
 
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Old 12-05-07, 09:57 PM
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Yeah, "more than a little electricity" is a good way to put it.

But I thought most commercially produced hydrogen currently came from natural gas? So back to the unrenewable resources issue.
 
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Old 12-06-07, 11:02 AM
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"More than a little" sounded more professional than "bunches and bunches".
 
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Old 12-07-07, 09:19 AM
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Hydrogen powered vehicles may be the long term solution but right now they're just not feasible for a lot of reasons, some technical, some economic and some political.

Hydrogen is costlier to produce than gasoline. If produced by conventional means it may actually introduce more green house gases than the production of gas. The amount of energy available in a given volume of hydrogen is a lot less than that of gasoline. The current cost of fuel cells to produce the equivalent energy to gas is very high.

Most experts predict it will be decades, if ever, before the
widespread use of hydrogen powered cars.
 
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Old 12-08-07, 06:53 PM
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My information was flawed. Thanks for the good responses. Deserves a little more research. Still think we could do more than rely on foreign oil, or our own for that matter. I agree with TG, that nuclear energy is something we are afraid of. It is my understanding no loss of life in the US due to nuclear failure, is that close? I know the potential is there, but so is a bomb planted in a pipeline or refinery transporting or refining oil.
 
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Old 12-08-07, 07:09 PM
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One of my favorite bumper stickers: "More people died at Chappaquiddick than at Three Mile Island".

People also like to point at Chernobyl. They fail to mention (or don't know) that the Chernobyl reactor was an obsolete design of which there are none in the US.
 
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Old 03-06-08, 12:34 PM
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honda has both a natural gas and a hydrogen civic in test phases in California

These are cool cars -- especially the natural gas feul cell car

imagine the NG pump right at your house hooked to the NG furnace line --its real now
 
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Old 03-22-08, 02:24 PM
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Hydrogen Power

Just started to get seriously interested in Hydrogen power for my car & have been doing a bit of reading & research regarding those "Hydrogen Generator Kits" for cars.

I would really like to give this a try, but, haven't finished enough research yet.

If interested...Here are some links for interesting reading & applications of auto based Hydrogen use.

http://thermo1.com/
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...R&search_type=
http://www.run-a-car-on-water.com/
http://www.nationalvapor.com/
http://hydranox5000.com/
http://clean-air.org/
http://www.hydrogennow.org/links.html
 
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Old 03-30-08, 09:49 PM
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You guys seem pretty knowledgable on this stuff, maybe you could tell me if this is worth getting into?

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=firstcls
 
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Old 03-30-08, 10:36 PM
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From the site:

"WHY COMPRESS HYDROGEN IN DANGEROUS HIGH-PRESSURE TANKS WHEN IT IS ALREADY "COMPRESSED" IN PLAIN WATER - AND CAN BE EASILY AND SAFELY RELEASED??!"

(sorry I couldn't capture the flashing text and "$ for u" graphics of that site for full effect)

Hm. Ballard Power Systems is based in my city. That's the tech leader in water-fueled buses. They admit that currently these fuel cells are not ready for city streets because... gah... they emit an intense ear-splitting shrieking noise.

Ballard is optimistic this problem inherent to the process can be surmounted.
 
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Old 04-04-08, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by the_tow_guy View Post
Help me out here, Larry:




From anything I know on the subject (which I admit isn't much) it takes more than a little energy, i.e. electricity, to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen. The most likely scenario for getting into hydrogen power is to use nuke-generated electricity to produce. Of course getting enough nuke plants built to do the job isn't likely given the vast number of anti-nukies. It'll happen eventually when the world gets dark enough and cold enough, sometime in the next century.
Ditto what he said. When it gets cold enough the anti-nukies will turn.

With the amount of sunshine laden land we have. I would like to see more Heliostats or heat tubes used for making electric power until people realize that nuclear is the way to go.

As for Hydrogen. It does take too much energy to make it. I would like to see better battery design and plug it in at home using nuclear electricity. No foriegn oil, coal or gas station stops. Until then give me cheaper diesel vehicles and stop sticking it to us at the pumps.
 
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Old 04-04-08, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sled4fun View Post
As for Hydrogen. It does take too much energy to make it.
This is partly true. Because the potential energy available but geographically limited is enormous. The compressed hydrogen can be made in one part of the world, shipped off for consumption in others, much as gas is today.

The enormous regional energy resource I mean is hydro. Solar vs. hydro is like ...warm soil vs. rivers. What's a river really, but global solar energy (evaporation) channeled through a small area? Then consider the minimum cost of manufacturing solar panels, and that the problem of buffering solar supply & demand cycles at any large scale is done by pumping water uphill with intermittent power, while running turbines 24/7 to generate the steady consumer end electricity... well, that's just hydro wrapped in artificial gizmos! Panels are 100% unnecessary cost, because we already have solar panels, called oceans.

The compressed hydrogen freighters will be sailing out of natural hydro powerhouse regions like Chile, Western Canada, Alaskan Panhandle. This is how we're going to keep cars on the road, worldwide.

That's not to say solar/wind/nuclear have no use in regions remote from the Earth's major energy streams.
 
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Old 04-17-08, 08:20 AM
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Additional Resources on the subject.

U.S. Department of Energy Home Page:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/

U.S. Department of Energy Biofuels Pages:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/

Alternative Fuels Page:
The Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center,
was formerly known as the Alternative Fuels Data Center. (AFDC)

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/

Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Page:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/

Alternative and Advanced Fuels Page:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/

Vehicle Technologies Program and Energy Policy Act Page:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/epact/

Plug In Hybrid Electric Vehicles Pages:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...out/index.html

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...in_report.html
 
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Old 04-27-08, 07:59 AM
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Hydrogen Fusion breakthrough is getting closer

Interesting subject,

As most already know, hydrogen is not new as a carrier of energy, and water being a carrier is getting more attention as breakthroughs in onboard generation are increasing to a point that it does indeed allow more output than input.

Curious, with fuel prices approaching $4.00 a gallon in many areas, what would you pay for hydrogen alternative? Personally, if the gov. would have done what they should have after oil embargo in 70's, we wouldn't still be dependent on foreign oil, but given they failed us, as usual, we are more dependent than ever, and this is driving the price of fuel up daily.

Hydrogen is the answer, always has been, but with gov. still subsidizing BIG oil when they are knocking down billions in profit every month is why we have not seen any solution to our foreign oil dependency. Personally, I would pay $6.00 a gallon for a hydrogen fuel for it produces zero emissions, and if that is not enough reason to move hydrogen to main stream, then what is? We will see $6.00 gas whether we develop hydrogen or not, so why not get it over with, pay $6.00 now and put all this extra money to work advancing technologies.

I have been using hydrogen generation systems on my vehicles for years, and it amazes me just how many benefits there are besides increased economy of 33% average I have seen. I have never had to replace plugs, I go 10K on 100% synthetic and oil looks like it did out of container when I bought it. I am certain it could go another 10K, but old habits are hard to break, I never went more than 5K before, so more savings are realized with hydrogen then most know. I pulled off valve cover and engine with over 200K was as clean as it was when new.

Simply put, hydrogen is the answer for many reasons, but since BIG oil has been greasing politians pockets for decades, and no such industry can do the same to boost hydrogen development, nothing changes. I have researched more developments in hydrogen generation in last two years than over past decade, and almost all of these developments were accomplished by under funded backyard mechanics like myself.

What really ticks me off is how oil companies have always come up with an additive to deter advances in hydrogen systems, and the auto manufactureres have done their best to do the same with ECU systems designed to hinder any enhancements in fuel catalysts and hydrogen systems. You have to get around all these issues to fool computer into delivering better performance, never mind increased economy. The last few years I have seen more and more advanced methods to hinder hydrogen development than in the last three decades trying to enhance its use.

Hang on folks, there will be a breakthrough shortly with regards to hydrogen fusion, it is closer than it has ever been to becoming cost effective, so to all you fellow backyard researchers and mechanics, keep on keeping on.

Good luck to all,
 
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Old 05-24-08, 04:48 PM
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You know the big three are ready -- Have Hope

Honda , Mercedes and GM are on the hydrogen bandwagon-- belive it or not but hey YOU CAN LEASE A Honda Hydrogen car if you qualify in California to drive the car of --


Well as Dr Zee put it "3 to 5years till mass production starts "and everyone can have their own hydrogen electric car and boy are they sweet - no polution and powered by solar collection H2O cracking stations

just look http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

 
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Old 05-25-08, 12:48 AM
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The idea that hydrogen is costly to produce is mostly propaganda. Splitting water is as easy as tossing a 12v battery into a bucket of saltwater... hydrogen bubbles will come off the negative contact, and oxygen off the positive. It is almost a pure conservative thermodynamic reaction even (no byproducts or other energy losses in the process). If you check out Honda's white papers on the hydrogen filling stations they propose, they use 100% solar power.

The idea that it takes more energy to make hydrogen than to use it is true, but only looking at half the story. ICE engines are still only 10-15% efficient at best, while electric are 90%, and hydrogen are somewhere in between (depends on the exact type of engine... a hydrogen battery system would be more like an electric car's efficiency). So even if the process takes slightly more energy to make the hydrogen than it puts out in the end, it would still be many times more efficient than oil or other alternatives.

Hydrogen is also safer than gas for storage. With modern hydrogen storage tanks, you can set it off, it will shoot a flame 10' or so into the air as it burns off, and when its done you can refill and drive away as if it never happened. With oil/gas, you have a combustion that makes the car explode.
 
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Old 05-28-08, 11:27 AM
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Imagine if you would 100 square miles of desert in nevada or arizona covered by inteligent solar pannels that gather solar energy. Energy used to create hydrogen from water that is desalinated from the sea, pumed to the cracking stations and then distributed across the southern part of north America by abandoned gasoline pipleines. (this would be the Hooover dam of our day , creating energy for the massess)

This could be the largest source of energy for automotive purposes in the next century.
No polution , no dangeous radiation just clean hot energy creating hydrogen for cars to burn re-cyclable fuel that would be made from energy that otherwise is wasted on making hot sand - and a few shady dessert creatures:mask:

worth it ? ask honda
 
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Old 05-29-08, 05:46 AM
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I did some exhaustive calculations, and, assuming Americans drive two hours per day; with as many vehicles as in 2005; and the panels, transmission, conversions, fuel storage & delivery, and hydrogen engines, all run at 100% efficiency; they will need 17,816 square miles of "smart" panel in Arizona. With losses it is more like 50,000, roughly half of Arizona state.

I dunno... the gee-whiz factor is there, but isn't it fantastic? As in "yeah, right"?


The oceans are solar panels, already. The potential energy they generate is channeled down mountainsides. We don't pay for that infrastructure. Too bad this doesn't seem "futuristic" and "look what we did" enough to get people excited.
 
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Old 05-29-08, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hahnmeister View Post
The idea that hydrogen is costly to produce is mostly propaganda.
Ugh, great. A conspiracy theorist. Look, there's no mass governmental/industry cover-up of H2 creation or usage in the auto (or any other) industry.

Originally Posted by hahnmeister View Post
Splitting water is as easy as tossing a 12v battery into a bucket of saltwater... hydrogen bubbles will come off the negative contact, and oxygen off the positive.
Sure, just add energy & you get H2. The amount you get out & can use in terms of energy is less than what you have to put in to it. You think you really can run a car on the energy from a 12V battery dumped in a bucket of water? You need more H2 than a few bubbles. The problem is scalability.
Originally Posted by hahnmeister View Post
It is almost a pure conservative thermodynamic reaction even (no byproducts or other energy losses in the process).
No, that is completely wrong. No process in the universe is 100% efficient.

Originally Posted by hahnmeister View Post
The idea that it takes more energy to make hydrogen than to use it is true, but only looking at half the story.
Now you're changing your story? You just said it was totally conservative.
Originally Posted by hahnmeister View Post
ICE engines are still only 10-15% efficient at best, while electric are 90%, and hydrogen are somewhere in between (depends on the exact type of engine... a hydrogen battery system would be more like an electric car's efficiency). So even if the process takes slightly more energy to make the hydrogen than it puts out in the end, it would still be many times more efficient than oil or other alternatives.
A little clarification. IC engines are like 15-20% ish efficient, but that is due to the losses from the combustion process. There's a lot of heat generated & not used in the driving process. That's where the poor efficiency # comes in. Their energy output (i.e. ft-lb of torque used to move the crankshaft) is low compared to the energy generated. If all that heat could be transferred to physical rotational energy, you'd get a much higher efficiency. W/ a H2 and/or battery system, very little heat loss is generated & most energy is directly transferred to physical movement. That's where the high efficiency comes in.

The difference is power generated. ICs can get you much more power (especially at highway-type speeds) than the battery systems. It isn't always about efficiency when you're rating a system. A truck hauling a load needs power.

Originally Posted by hahnmeister View Post
Hydrogen is also safer than gas for storage. With modern hydrogen storage tanks, you can set it off, it will shoot a flame 10' or so into the air as it burns off, and when its done you can refill and drive away as if it never happened. With oil/gas, you have a combustion that makes the car explode.
Assuming you have one of those storage tanks, it can be OK. Not all places have those, especially piping transport devices. A place I was doing work for had a H2 transport line that a guy created a spark nearby & blew himself up. No saftey tank valve there.
 
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Old 05-29-08, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kobuchi View Post
I did some exhaustive calculations, and, assuming Americans drive two hours per day; with as many vehicles as in 2005; and the panels, transmission, conversions, fuel storage & delivery, and hydrogen engines, all run at 100% efficiency; they will need 17,816 square miles of "smart" panel in Arizona. With losses it is more like 50,000, roughly half of Arizona state.

I dunno... the gee-whiz factor is there, but isn't it fantastic? As in "yeah, right"?


The oceans are solar panels, already. The potential energy they generate is channeled down mountainsides. We don't pay for that infrastructure. Too bad this doesn't seem "futuristic" and "look what we did" enough to get people excited.

Ah Kobuchi - You've pointed out one workable solution for renewable energy. Unfortunately, whatever would you do to protect the local version of the snail darter?
 
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Old 05-29-08, 02:24 PM
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Darter vs. dam? Personally, I'd be happy with a nice farewell ceremony for that nondescript little fishy. Bye bye.

Seems we can't walk without crushing bugs. We made it illegal. We've green painted the world, now we're trapped in a corner.

Solar panels are humanity's moral regression to plant life.
 
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Old 06-03-08, 11:04 AM
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We could always mandate that all future home shingles be energy producing (solar panels) and pump energy back into the grid

and hydrogen will be one of many sources for car energy in the future --ie many engine types would be come viable depending on your locations and the use of the auto , machine..

ever seen an oil spill at sea uuuugh - hydrogen would just go away in that kind of accident ! - no pollution!! same on land
as it came from within the environment

hey if you smoke and handle gas the result is the same with H2
saftey is a matter of image - no gasoline does not act like napalm --or does it ? sigh

were is my tesla ?
 
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Old 06-04-08, 12:06 PM
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free feul from the sun

aaaaaaaahuhuhuhuhu hu aaaa huhuhu hu
hhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuughghghghgh beeeep beeeeep
 
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Old 06-06-08, 10:50 PM
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New inventions ? True or not ?

* Splitting H2O into hydrogen was done in the late 1800's.This Experiment was school subject in the late 60's in germany where I was born. Yes we used H2O and yes by my own experience it is very...very explosive and a 8 oz styrafoam cup of un-compressed hydrogen will make all your windows rattle and your house shacke.
* Electric cars. The ol' Baker had a electric car to offer in the 30's with 3 6 Volt Batteries and a speed of about 45 miles an hour. In New York, markets had battery chargers to charge the batteries for customer and that was free of charge.But oil took over.
* Most Hydrogen in the U.S is made of Natural Gas because it's more cost efficient to produce. New zea land as far as I know is the only country that makes hydrogen on a commercial base from H2O using solar panels.
* Using electricity to make hydrogen takes more enery than what you will get back.Just remember every time you convert enery from one form to an other form you will most likly every time have losses as heat, which is also enery but we do not have to many uses, or the technology to convert heat into useable energy like motion.
* Gasoline is still very cheap if you compare it to comercialy made hydrogen and use $ per mile. Arnold Schwarzenneger had a SUV hydro car 2 years back and what I calculated was that hydro was about 3-4 times more expensive ($ per mile), but that was 2 years ago.I do not now what the price is our days. Would you be willing to spend lets say 3 times more $ per mile?
On the other hand, electricity would be only pennies per fill-up for electric cars.

THE THOUGHT OF TODAY.
If most hydrogen is made of Natural Gas are we still dependent on some body else since we import natural gas and what would it do to natural gas prices? Would'nt every thing go up on price that involves natural gas. The same will happen with corn and ethanol.

* Solar panel- Hydrogen/ IC Engine Cars- Electric Cars
Factory build electric cars take about 9,000 watts per charge for about 200 miles distance, these electric cars could be charged with solar panels. To get enough hydrogen from electricity solar panels produce, you would need about 3 times more solar panels to drive the same distance.
* Did anybody see the new battery they developed without using lead and that same battery that had only 2 Different cemicals divided by a screen and the douple amount of amp hours compare to the same size lead battery. , developed especialy for electric cars?......Of cours not. This Battery was shown in a electric car in the mid 80's on one of the science chanal's when I lived in Omaha Nebraska. This is called infra struture. Who would change it ?!
The lighter the car the more miles You get for the same power input.
Did you also see in 2008 on the discovery chanel, the technologie they have to make a car with 4 persons run 1,000 miles and using only 7 gallons of diesel.
Laddies and gentlemen. The technologie is here to reduce our consumption of oil, but it is not used in the name of racking money in.
* Hydro.We are not using the full potential of hydro as said in earlier posts. Nor do countries use the coast lines for potencial powers. In germany they build a dam along the coastal line in the ocean for protection of storms, but most of all to generate power. They desined it for the power of the tide to produce tons of electricity from the incoming water and the leaving water.And who said you can not harness the power of the moon.
Sorry that this reply is so long.
Johann Flory
[email protected]
 
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Old 06-08-08, 08:13 PM
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Question Hydrogen/Oxygen Enhancement for Gasoline Automoblies

OK. I have read the ad info several times from "Drive With Water Fuel", Water4gas, Wam-a-bam and others. I think it has the possibility of increasing gasoline MPG for an operating cost of almost nothing. At first, a money back guarantee appears fair, but I think we have the possibility of losing much more than the cost of the information that is for sale.

Have you considered a vehicle to install this system on? What is it's market value? If something goes wrong, it could be reduced to scrap value. I'm not talking explosions, fires, etc., but there might be a risk built into the engine electroincs of 96 or later (OBD2) or even OBD1 autos and I doubt that these information salesmen will guarantee engine replacement.

Specifically, the engine computer and it's sensors, including the Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF) control the fuel/air ratio and ignition timing plus other functions. If you are like me, not a fuel systems expert, you don't know how to tell the computer you have attached an external hydrogen/oxygen generator and connected it's output to the fuel system at some point between the air filter box and the throttle body, or possibly, one or more of us have not even considered this might need to be done. Actually, the HHO in the intake air increases performance (speed) and the driver backs off the "pedal", the MAF reports less air-flow, the computer tells the injectors to supply less fuel when it might need to supply more, because it is not controlling and has no knowledge of the HHO.

I will now take a step backward and let our automotive experts tell us what could happen to our engine if the computer thinks it needs a leaner fuel/air ratio.

Also remember, these companies are information sellers, and probably have minimum knowledge of the design of an internal combustion engine and it's controls and internal cooling, of which vaporizing gasoline is a factor.

I think the HHO(their acronym, not mine) application will eventually be improved, but I also think it needs work and it doesn't need my $97.
 
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Old 06-11-08, 06:24 AM
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sounds like Super genious territory to me ..

I'm gonnna bail on that idea , water for feul in exisitng engines


beep -beep
 
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Old 06-14-08, 07:11 PM
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My buddy has the hydrogen kit. He bought it off Ebay for only $ 150.00, gets 50% better gas milage than before.

Converts distilled water into hydrogen. 1 Gallon of water lasts 300 miles.
 
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Old 06-28-08, 11:20 PM
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hydrogen power

HVAC-GUY which kit did your buddy buy? I am very interested in trying this. I have a 1989 ford f150 and think I will try this on it. Any advice will be appreciated. thanks
 
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Old 06-29-08, 10:19 AM
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Yeah I would also like some details on the kit, I have a 93 jeep GC that I would be willing to experiment on.
 
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Old 07-03-08, 09:35 AM
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Hydrogen Generator

Yep...I'm making one myself. Got some PCV pipe, silicone, tubing, and sodium hydroxide(lye). This one is going to be chemical-based...add 1 quart of distilled water and 1/4 container of hydroxide; mix well and add 2-3 crushed aluminum cans. The aluminum acts as a catalyst between the hydrogen and oxygen and makes very pure hydrogen gas; pipe the gas into a 'bubbler' and from there, into the intake manifold. I'll need to add an MAF sensor and 2 oxygen sensors and that's it. Really excited...I'll let you know how things go.
 
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Old 07-03-08, 10:58 AM
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Our currently reliance on conventional chemical (primarily lithium now) based batteries is long overdue for a change. They are wasteful and a dead end road, as lithium is the best element on the period table for holding extra electrons.

Now I see you all talking about running cars on water. I know that in water, the hydrogen bond can be broken by electrolysis, but can someone please explain how you can break the bond without any source of input energy? I've always envisioned hydrogen plants based on wind and solar energy that would split the water molecule, but doing it in the engine seems like a bad idea for me, except perhaps as a safety feature since water is non-combustible.

The water produced by hydrogen engines is made when the hydrogen re-bonds with oxygen molecules in the atmosphere, therefore an engine which both splits and recombines these molecules would at first glance to me seem to be one that would produce a negative yield (due to friction and heat losses), correct me if I'm wrong my knowledge might be a bit outdated.
 
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Old 07-04-08, 09:04 PM
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murf26, sounds interesting. hope it works. when you get it put together can you post a picture or diagram of what it looks like? thanks susie
 
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Old 07-08-08, 04:29 PM
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Front page article in our local paper today! - how local business person got a hydrogen kit for $400 and installed it, and he claims that his car is now getting 40 mpg when it was getting 31, for a 29% increase.

The article also said that one of the Korea countries has mandated that I think fleet trucks be retrofit with this. The reason I was sure to bring that up is is that one of the big questions that people always raise with any of these miracle MPG ideas is that if they really work, then why doesn't the gov't mandate these? Reasonable question, right?

One never knows the truth if an independent lab has not done before and after tests, because as you you know, it is human nature that people want to brag on their idea and don't want to look like they fell for some folly/scam. So they drive the car differently after they add the supposed MPG increaser to see how many mpg's more they can get.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 07-08-08 at 06:12 PM. Reason: changed a number
  #35  
Old 07-08-08, 06:01 PM
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I have to confess, even though I'm a non-believer, that it is tempting to experiment with; that $97 fill-up this afternoon hurt. Wouldn't need much of an improvement. Sure would be nice to see the Mythbusters install the system on three or four representative makes/models and find out for sure.
 
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Old 07-08-08, 06:26 PM
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I found the article! Here:

http://www.leadertelegram.com/story-...id=BH3DLBCME22

(I tried accessing my own provided site above and it took the screen 17 seconds to even change at all, with my high speed, off of DIY - so sit tight and wait. It is worth it!)

My fear in all this would be there is a possible 'folly factor' awaiting those who do this - to where you save gas alright, only to have it ruin your engine!, ??, or ?. THAT would take the cake!
 

Last edited by ecman51; 07-08-08 at 06:39 PM. Reason: added more
  #37  
Old 07-10-08, 05:50 PM
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If you paid $97 for the info, you paid to much.

I found this on the internet and that is the same info as Water4Gas is selling. But it is free as far as I know and there are 2 different E-Books to download one 183 pages and the other 138 pages.
Here are the links:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3321312/Gas-Saving-Techniques
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3321254/Mo...as-USING-WATER

Raleigh sad that techonoly dates back to the 80's, he is wrong it goes back to the 1800's. This simplyfied working system for cars dates back to the 60's.
The jar system to make hho will work for shure on carburated engines, but on injected engines it will take some tinkering. The hydrogen and the oxygen is piped into the intake. The problem with inject. engine is the extra amount of oxygen, that let the computor know that the engine is running to lean. So the computor will make the engine run more rich. To combat the problem you will have to install a 2-O-sensor enhancer and/or a Map sensor enhancer if you use the hho.
I beliefe ( not knowing) that 1 jar will not make any difference, about 4-6 jars would do more to it. It is also to note that hho is 6 times more potent than the same amount of gas. Oh...by the way word "hho" is actually illigal to use, since it is a trademark. If the engine runs to lean it could overheat, the hydrogen and the bubeler will run the engine cooler. Study the information on the above links.

Some one on this thread said there is no studies on this subject through a lab, think again .....go to this link....
http://www.hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos

The size hydrogen generator and amperage use ,is way to big because they used a hydrogen generator designed for welding and cutting that this company makes, but it was there lab to checked it out. I believe this is not a misleading report since this company is not into selling systems for cars. Read the report.
A man in the philipines desingned preety much the same system, but uses only the hho to run a car without the gasoline.The philipine govenor aproved it, saying that the philipines do not import a lot of oil and it would not interfere with U.S oil-imports. OOP'S.... why does the U.S gov. not want the systems on there cars or cars that can make 100 or better per mile. Money..... they would lose on fuel-taxes.
For exsamle; if i have a car that makes 20 miles per gallon and I find a way to get 100 miles per gallon, the goverment would lose 80% on fuel tax. Do you really think the goverment would let this happen, even though we would not be as depentant on imported fuel or the same car would be as green as it could be? Heck no.
Thats why you here a lot about hydrogen cars and not about electric cars. Fist the gov. pusded E-85 to get taxes at pump station, now they push hydrogen to get the tax at the pump station. Next will be electric cars if there numbers increase, but with a difference that every electric car owner may have to pay an extra yearly fee(just another word for tax) or tax for the loss of fuel tax.
.....If the above links works out and you save money on fuel, just send me the money you would had to spend for the plans as a thank you for giving you folks the link.....Ha..Ha..
I can feel it, I gonna be rich.....
 
  #38  
Old 07-10-08, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by murf26 View Post
Yep...I'm making one myself. Got some PCV pipe, silicone, tubing, and sodium hydroxide(lye). This one is going to be chemical-based...add 1 quart of distilled water and 1/4 container of hydroxide; mix well and add 2-3 crushed aluminum cans. The aluminum acts as a catalyst between the hydrogen and oxygen and makes very pure hydrogen gas; pipe the gas into a 'bubbler' and from there, into the intake manifold. I'll need to add an MAF sensor and 2 oxygen sensors and that's it. Really excited...I'll let you know how things go.
Murf 26 I don't think it is a good idea to run the chemical based system on any car. As you know Lye will corode and eat away metals like Aluminium, copper, iron, brass very fast. All these metals are in your or around your engine. Yes you would have a bubbler, but it can only hold a minor amount of lye vapor and the lye-water-vapor is ending up in your intake-cylinderhead-inside your engine as blow-by and exhaust system. Remember Lye is very corrosive and if you get in contact with it, it will eat you alive.
How would you control the hydrogen production if you stop the engine?
I have seen this system on the internet as a home based system for home heating but I never seen this applied to the car.
Here in the U.S they toook powdered Lye of grocery shelfs because of meth-makers, and as far as I know the liquid type is weakend down and has additional chemicals in it. One year ago I have seen it at lowes hardware store at the plumming department.Good luck.
Lye was used by most folks to make Bio-Diesel for home brewers.
It seems to me it would be expensive to make hydrogen with this system, considering the cost of Lye only.

Do you have a link I could go to, so I can get more info?
 
  #39  
Old 07-11-08, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by johann flory View Post
OOP'S.... why does the U.S gov. not want the systems on there cars or cars that can make 100 or better per mile. Money..... they would lose on fuel-taxes.
For exsamle; if i have a car that makes 20 miles per gallon and I find a way to get 100 miles per gallon, the goverment would lose 80% on fuel tax. Do you really think the goverment would let this happen, even though we would not be as depentant on imported fuel or the same car would be as green as it could be? Heck no.
This point is arguable. Conspiracy theory type stuff. On the surface it makes sense, just like when people say the oil companies are behind buying up 100 mpg carburetors. (Which theory I do not buy)

That said, why wouldn't the gov't then simply increase their tax per gallon?, to offset the loss?

Regarding the rest of your post. Interesting. Have you considered contacting the Leader Telegram paper and see if you can get ahold of or have Raleigh get in contact with you. Could be interesting. Send him over here to this forum. Maybe he'd jump in. Either it is working for him, or it is not. There are always two sides to every story.
 
  #40  
Old 07-25-08, 08:21 PM
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how about solar power car ? I heard that Prices for high-grade silicon (that can generate electricity from sunlight) shot up in 2004 in response to growing demand, reaching as high as $500 per kilogram (2.2 pounds) this year. Enter thin-film solar cells—devices that use a fine layer of semiconducting material, such as silicon, copper indium gallium selenide or cadmium telluride, to harvest electricity from sunlight at a fraction of the cost.

"The fundamental advantage of thin film comes in the form of the amount of material you need," says electrical engineer Jeff Britt, chief technology officer of thin-film manufacturer Global Solar Energy in Tucson, Ariz. "These are direct bandgap semiconductors. You can get by with one or two microns and still absorb 98 percent of the sunlight." (In other words, it takes at least 100 times less thin-film material to absorb the same amount of sunlight as traditional silicon photovoltaic cells.)
 
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