Moisture in new walkout basement
#1
01-21-06, 03:51 PM
Moisture in new walkout basement
I have just moved into a brand new house. It has a walkout basement in the back with a patio door. After the first heavy rain storm I noticed a couple of wet spots on the concrete under the door - really water stains, no puddles or accumulation. The builder said he would replace the caulking around the door to fix it. A couple of days ago we had a nother rain storm, and this time I noticed another similar wet spot (about 3 or 4 inches diameter) at the foot of the wall about 15 feet from the door. I called the builder back in, he says this is moisture that is being "wicked" in along the top of the concrete from outside and is completely normal as the house dries out. He says that because there is no puddling this is not a leak. I have posted some pictures of this here: http://photobucket.com/albums/e360/dannox02
Have anybody ever heard of such a thing, or is my builder just trying to brush me off? Is this really normal or do I have a serious problem on my hands?
Thanks for any input.
Have anybody ever heard of such a thing, or is my builder just trying to brush me off? Is this really normal or do I have a serious problem on my hands?
Thanks for any input.
#2
01-21-06, 06:57 PM
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dannox02,
Question I would have ask is;
Do you have a draintile and a sump pump?
How far down is the grade at the patio door?
Is there any retaining walls attached to the basement walls?
What type of waterproofing was installed on foundation walls?
Is the walk out just a portion of the basement or is the entire walk out along the entire wall?
If it is the entire wall, is the grade sloped accordingly?
Is there a deck above this patio door?
The pictures are good and caulking may be an issue but I think there is a need to take pictures of the outside before suggesting anything. Assuming and giving an answer is totally different from seeing what you have and what was done in this new built.
Hope this helps!
Question I would have ask is;
Do you have a draintile and a sump pump?
How far down is the grade at the patio door?
Is there any retaining walls attached to the basement walls?
What type of waterproofing was installed on foundation walls?
Is the walk out just a portion of the basement or is the entire walk out along the entire wall?
If it is the entire wall, is the grade sloped accordingly?
Is there a deck above this patio door?
The pictures are good and caulking may be an issue but I think there is a need to take pictures of the outside before suggesting anything. Assuming and giving an answer is totally different from seeing what you have and what was done in this new built.
Hope this helps!
#3
01-21-06, 07:35 PM
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to answer the questions:
There is a sump pump, but it is in the far corner (on the front side) of the house. There is absolutely no water in the sump and no evidence of water anywhwere except where mentioned in my first post.
The patio door is on the back of the house, the grade is flat from side to side on the house, but does slope away toward the back of the lot. However right next to the patio door, the new sods are a little and the first foot or so closest to the door are a little sloped down now.
I'm not exactly sure what the waterproofing was on the foundation other than from the house specs which state something like "heavy duty damproofing". However, I'm not sure this matters since the area where I'm seeing the water is totally above grade. Basically, the grass on the outside is only a couple of inches below the door sill. Also the grass is level with the first course of brick along the back wall of the house.
There is no deck above the patio door, but there is a deck above where I saw the water along the wall.
What I'm wondering is if it is possible that, since the grass is at the level of the footing along the back of the house, can the water actually be seeping in between the footing and the brick mortar from being in contact with the wet grass on the outside.
I will take some pics of the outside in the morning if that will help.
Thanks again.
There is a sump pump, but it is in the far corner (on the front side) of the house. There is absolutely no water in the sump and no evidence of water anywhwere except where mentioned in my first post.
The patio door is on the back of the house, the grade is flat from side to side on the house, but does slope away toward the back of the lot. However right next to the patio door, the new sods are a little and the first foot or so closest to the door are a little sloped down now.
I'm not exactly sure what the waterproofing was on the foundation other than from the house specs which state something like "heavy duty damproofing". However, I'm not sure this matters since the area where I'm seeing the water is totally above grade. Basically, the grass on the outside is only a couple of inches below the door sill. Also the grass is level with the first course of brick along the back wall of the house.
There is no deck above the patio door, but there is a deck above where I saw the water along the wall.
What I'm wondering is if it is possible that, since the grass is at the level of the footing along the back of the house, can the water actually be seeping in between the footing and the brick mortar from being in contact with the wet grass on the outside.
I will take some pics of the outside in the morning if that will help.
Thanks again.
#4
01-22-06, 05:44 AM
I uploaded some pics of the outside in case this might help. I have circled aproximately where I see the water stains.
http://photobucket.com/albums/e360/dannox02/
Thanks.
http://photobucket.com/albums/e360/dannox02/
Thanks.
#5
01-22-06, 04:41 PM
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dannox02,
From what I can tell landscaping looks good. The issues that come to mind are;
How far down does this brick go down on the foundation?
If it is sitting directly on the slab - this is an issue and the grade would or shall I say, should be down further.
Heavy duty damproofing can mean nothing at this wall location.
The area of water infiltration to the area below the deck may be an issue of not properly flashing the deck to brick. Weep holes that are suppose to be in the brick are not working and the water is getting in behind any vapor retarder that was used. It has no place to go but inside the home.
The patio door issue would be use of better caulking UNLESS we have a slope of the basement slab and the water is coming in to the left of the door, similar to what is happening below the deck area.
Those are some issues to check.
From what I can tell landscaping looks good. The issues that come to mind are;
How far down does this brick go down on the foundation?
If it is sitting directly on the slab - this is an issue and the grade would or shall I say, should be down further.
Heavy duty damproofing can mean nothing at this wall location.
The area of water infiltration to the area below the deck may be an issue of not properly flashing the deck to brick. Weep holes that are suppose to be in the brick are not working and the water is getting in behind any vapor retarder that was used. It has no place to go but inside the home.
The patio door issue would be use of better caulking UNLESS we have a slope of the basement slab and the water is coming in to the left of the door, similar to what is happening below the deck area.
Those are some issues to check.
#6
01-22-06, 05:39 PM
Thanks for the input. These things make sense to me, and is the same things I am thinking about. The bottom of the first row of bricks is right where the top of the grass is. If you push down the grass, you see the concrete. I see this as issue. When I bought the house the grass wasn't done. I assume there would be some building code or something that would specifiy requirements around minimum distances for grading to foundation....
I'm not clear on what you mean about the deck installaion. How can the deck at the second level affect the weep holes at the bottom? Do you mean that the weep holes behind the where the deck is attached to the house are covered and could be causing problems, or that the bolts attaching the deck to the house have comprimised something?
Thanks a lot for your input!
I'm not clear on what you mean about the deck installaion. How can the deck at the second level affect the weep holes at the bottom? Do you mean that the weep holes behind the where the deck is attached to the house are covered and could be causing problems, or that the bolts attaching the deck to the house have comprimised something?
Thanks a lot for your input!
#7
01-22-06, 05:47 PM
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Moisture in new walkout basement
dannox02 -
Doug has a good point about the deck flashing. It is a problem that is all too common.
I am not in love with the level of the the grade. It is a little too low in relationship to the inside floor - there is little room for error or weather factors. Heavy rains and ice and snow buildup could trap water near the house.
Under the deck the grass is at the level of the brick weeps. There should be flashing behind the brick to shed the water. I assume it is there, but flashing does have joints. Any water that comes back into the first course of brick could build up and flow laterally. If a joint between flashing lengths is not sealed, the water could go under the flashing and into the house. There is no limit to the distance the water could travel laterally.
I tried to blow up the photo of the exterior of the siding door. I could not see any weep openings above the door, but there could be some. There should be flashing over the door. Without the weeps, water could not exit the wall easily and show up as a leak immediately around or under the door.
Caulking could stop moisture from getting into the living space, but it still could be trapped within the wall.
Next time there is moisture available you could get the locations mapped. An engineer or a good home inspector with a good moisture meter capable of both scanning and pentrating could determine the moisture variations within the wall. Both Delmhorst and GE Protimeter have these meters ($400 - $500 for the meter). These are not the "toy" meters you commonly see and the person must have some skill to map an area.
Just my opinion.
Dick
Doug has a good point about the deck flashing. It is a problem that is all too common.
I am not in love with the level of the the grade. It is a little too low in relationship to the inside floor - there is little room for error or weather factors. Heavy rains and ice and snow buildup could trap water near the house.
Under the deck the grass is at the level of the brick weeps. There should be flashing behind the brick to shed the water. I assume it is there, but flashing does have joints. Any water that comes back into the first course of brick could build up and flow laterally. If a joint between flashing lengths is not sealed, the water could go under the flashing and into the house. There is no limit to the distance the water could travel laterally.
I tried to blow up the photo of the exterior of the siding door. I could not see any weep openings above the door, but there could be some. There should be flashing over the door. Without the weeps, water could not exit the wall easily and show up as a leak immediately around or under the door.
Caulking could stop moisture from getting into the living space, but it still could be trapped within the wall.
Next time there is moisture available you could get the locations mapped. An engineer or a good home inspector with a good moisture meter capable of both scanning and pentrating could determine the moisture variations within the wall. Both Delmhorst and GE Protimeter have these meters ($400 - $500 for the meter). These are not the "toy" meters you commonly see and the person must have some skill to map an area.
Just my opinion.
Dick
#8
01-23-06, 04:37 AM
I agree with Concrete...the grade is way to high. Brick is a porous material and water can easily soak into to it. Ideally, there should be at 8"-12" between the grade and the first course of brick.
#9
01-23-06, 05:09 PM
This is a lot of food for thought. I agree totally with what you say about the grade. I'm not happy with it, but I wonder is anything I can do... I'm not allowed to change the grading myself, and the builder specifies that the grading is done according to the city specifications. The problem is that my street is on a light hill, it seems they have the houses on a larger slope than the back yards. My neighbour up the hill has a few inches between grass and brick, but my neighbour on the other side is even a little lower (I was checking it out today, it almost seems like the grass is ABOVE the level of the door threshold!)
I also checked out the deck. It is bolted directly to the wall with no spacers or anything between the brick and the deck. But I still don't really understand how this could be a problem
Concretemasonry, you are correct about the weep holes, there are none over the patio door.
Also, from what I can tell, the bottom of the first course of brick is level with the top of the inside concrete slab. This doesn't match the diagrams that Doug sent me. However, I can only assume that what they did meets the building code (in Ontario).
I think I might go knock on some doors soon and see if anyone else is noticing this problem and let them know to keep an eye out. If I handn't got up at 7:00 the night after the rain to check for this, I would have never seen it because it's dried up that night.
The one thing that I am definetly seeing is that this is NOT normal as my builder tried to tell me. I think I will also have to have another talk with him.
I also checked out the deck. It is bolted directly to the wall with no spacers or anything between the brick and the deck. But I still don't really understand how this could be a problem
Concretemasonry, you are correct about the weep holes, there are none over the patio door.
Also, from what I can tell, the bottom of the first course of brick is level with the top of the inside concrete slab. This doesn't match the diagrams that Doug sent me. However, I can only assume that what they did meets the building code (in Ontario).
I think I might go knock on some doors soon and see if anyone else is noticing this problem and let them know to keep an eye out. If I handn't got up at 7:00 the night after the rain to check for this, I would have never seen it because it's dried up that night.
The one thing that I am definetly seeing is that this is NOT normal as my builder tried to tell me. I think I will also have to have another talk with him.
#10
01-23-06, 08:01 PM
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dannox02,
Here are some examples of typical foundations.
http://dougaphs.smugmug.com/gallery/1150738
I'd be interested to know how the neighbors are fairing as well. Let us know what you find out.
Hope this helps!
Here are some examples of typical foundations.
http://dougaphs.smugmug.com/gallery/1150738
I'd be interested to know how the neighbors are fairing as well. Let us know what you find out.
Hope this helps!
