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hole in foundation for drainage...embrace or not?

hole in foundation for drainage...embrace or not?

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  #1  
Old 05-15-11, 05:05 PM
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hole in foundation for drainage...embrace or not?

i have a few threads on my crawlspace issue but basically 2 year go i had the entire house excavated and a 3 tiered drain system put in..then it still leaked and he's supposed to come back soon and fix it.

but (i have to confirm this) i think the guys drilled thru my foundation block and attempted to put a drain of sorts where the crawlspace was lowest...and drain this into the perimeter drain. i think the one guy just tried drilling thru the concrete floor to try to meet up with the plastic pipe but i'm positive it didnt work because when it flooded it didnt drain at all! so have many 'drill marks' going nowhere

i think when they come to fix it, they want to actually take the time and join up a drain with the the previously laid pipe that goes thru the foundation. I've heard that it's not good that they messed with the foundation but assuming it's already dug, Should i embrace this or have them try something else. i dont even know how they would fix the foundation if i asked.

i know he's trying to cover his butt that even if this leaks after he digs it up , it drains and that's not a bad thing necessarily. but even if that works ill have puddles throughout because it's not sloped right.

in theory this project will start in 2 weeks and i kinda think it sucks i paid over 10K and he's trying to do this drain thing but he did say he would also put 2 more yard drains in and he does have to dig up a lot to level the lowest pipe in the system because his guys sloped it and even he said it should be level 'just above' the ground. and it's not
 
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  #2  
Old 05-16-11, 11:06 AM
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Do you know if the water is entering the crawl space due to a high water table or just a leaky foundation & other drainage problems? If it's not a high water table, then sealing the foundation from the outside & correcting the pitch is the answer, not all kinds of elaborate equipment. A membrane should have been installed on the foundation when the ground was opened.
 
  #3  
Old 05-16-11, 05:01 PM
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leaky foundation...hill comes down my yard and whoosh..

installed was some kind of sealer, a rubber membrane which comes down the side of house and out a few feet into the yard..then stone, then pvc pipe with holes at 4 and 8 o clock..this pvc was sloped from the rear of house around to front and apparently this is WRONG because it takes very high water to even start to use the pipe. or so i'm told. i'm hoping this is really the problem though.

or maybe just the rain is getting down the side of the house and between the membrane and house..unsure. or maybe the membrane ripped

2nd pvc pipe system is solely responsible for the gutters

3rd pvc pipe takes care of 3 yard drains and he will put in 2 more drains i think...something there is wrong because on a sunny day i emptied my spa into the drain and where he dug a test hole it filled up
 
  #4  
Old 05-16-11, 07:11 PM
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Put a sump basin and pump in that corner that discharges to the exterior on its own line. If it is tied into an exterior perimeter drain, it can and will back up right into the crawlspace.
 
  #5  
Old 05-16-11, 11:01 PM
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Was the membrane installed all the way to the footing? In other words, the entire depth of the crawl space? That's the correct way to do it. If it were done that way, the hill is the problem.
 
  #6  
Old 05-17-11, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CrawlspaceTech View Post
Put a sump basin and pump in that corner that discharges to the exterior on its own line. If it is tied into an exterior perimeter drain, it can and will back up right into the crawlspace.
how will it back up into a crawlspace? i'm not sure which pipe it's tied into but my guess is it's tied into the gutter lines. the crawlspace fills up at a slower rate than the 'rain' does the gutters and i'm sure after its done raining it's hours or days that the water floods in from the rear.

also i think the pipe is sloped....

but even if they put in a sump where would i run that? i sure dont want it all just draining out onto the 'drain hole' thats already outside my perimeter..wouldnt it just block up that lower drain pipe then or lay on the ground causing other issues?
 
  #7  
Old 05-21-11, 10:36 AM
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I am surprised that this problem hasn't been fixed.

You admitted that your yard was collecting a lot of water from the hill and I advised that the best way to deal with this was to create a secret wall some distance above the house that would collect all of the rain water coming down the hill and divert it round your home.

I also said that your French drain would collect the rain falling between the secret wall and your home, if it was big enough and if it was emptied at both ends.

I advised that a French drain has a limited abiltiy to collect and divert water round you home based on its size, as most of the space is taken up with stones, I also mentioned that the bottom of the French drain needs to be level with the bottom of your foundations and that it needed to exit at ground level somewhere in your front garden, if it were to work correctly.

Perhaps you should rethink the problem and settle for an open ditch. An open ditch will enable you to see how much water is being collected, you will be able to see if the water is getting away and if it is not you can widen and or lower the bottom of the ditch until it does what you want.
 
  #8  
Old 05-23-11, 12:06 PM
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the fact is there's a 3-4 ft ditch around the house now and nothing else will be done with regards to any other ditches...i have no money and he has to just fix this free since his guys did it wrong. hopefully the 2 or more additional yard drains and leveling out the bottom pipe on the bottom of the ditch will cure this issue however the one thing i cannot fathom is WHY this leaks.

either the water is getting down the side of the house between the membrane and the house (i am currently getting water in the garage from cracks in the permastone so this would be a possibility)

OR

the water goes 4 ft veritically thru all the soil and stones...goes 4ft away from the house rolling off the membrane then returns 4 ft back toward the house and thru the foundation (id be shocked if water did this)

OR

the membrane broke (i'm guessing this)

reason i think something broke is when i emptied my spa and put the water in the yard drains, i could see water filling up his test hole so some pipes are definitely leaking. the purpose of this thread was really to see if i should be screaming about a hole in my foundation for the new crawl drain and i have one opinion that it shoudnt be tied into the outside line directly but i dont see any issues with it really,, the front of the house where this is never even leaked even though tons of water still pools to this day..all the water comes from the back of the house and runs to the front of the crawl.

speaking of open ditches, i'm pretty sure both sides here will wait all summer if we have to before filling in the holes this time..no way does anyone want to fill it up and have it leak again...can you think of any reason why it wouldnt be a good idea to let the entire back of the house just be all open? i cant
 
  #9  
Old 05-23-11, 12:13 PM
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Do those field drains tie in with the drainage tile at the footing? Were those fields drains run with perforated pipe?
 
  #10  
Old 05-23-11, 01:40 PM
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Lets look at this logically, water NEARLY always finds its way downwards, but not always!
Sometimes it rises by wind pressure, sometimes it rises by capillary attraction....so yes it can rise 4 feet up a wall.

Lets try to understand, is the bottom of the ditch level or lower than the bottom of the foundations?

Is the projected bottom of the ditch across the front garden, level or lower than the foundations?

Did you do as I recommended, make a secret wall/ditch higher up your yard to collect and divert the surface water round your home?
 
  #11  
Old 05-24-11, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by drooplug View Post
Do those field drains tie in with the drainage tile at the footing? Were those fields drains run with perforated pipe?
it's a 3 pipe system...ditch dug all around the house to footer depth but some of the footer is 'irregular' and juts out from the house...the membrane is laid down to the footer then comes out about 3-4 ft into the yard.

stones were then poured...then:

4 inch pipe with holes at 4 and 8 o clock was set on the stones to pick up the 'groundwater' that falls against the house but according to the bossman, his guys sloped the pipe from back of the house to the front and he says it should have been level. it's at least 100 ft run from starting point to all the way around the house (then about 40 ft down a gentle slope to the exit location) so my guess is the farthest point in back of the house is signficantly higher than the lowest and i'm guessing this means the water has to be 'real high' to even get to the pipe... from all my reading, this should have been installed level. i dont know if this is true but if it is i cant understand how the water will drain if it's level???

on top of the bottom pipe is a closed 4 inch pipe which gathers water from 3 downspouts in the back of the house and 2 in the front

then the top most pipe is tied into 3 yard drains in the back of my house...nothing on side or front. he proposes to add 1 or 2 more yard drains where the most flooding in the crawl is happening. I'm sure this cannot hurt but will it help..who knows.

i'm still betting on ruptured pipes or ripped membrane..but i'm far from an expert, just a frustrated homeowner.
 
  #12  
Old 05-24-11, 06:31 AM
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All these pipes drain to daylight as well?

Water seeks it's own level. Based on the little bit of knowledge of have about this subject, the perforated pipe sits level and gathers water. As the water rises in the pipe, it flows out via the unperforated pipe that goes to daylight if you have one, or into a sump pit to be pumped out. The pipe creates a pth with no resistance for the water to flow. If it is below your slab, it should prevent water from coming into the basement. I don't know what kind of effect having the pipe sloped would have. I suppose if the high point of the pipe is above the slab, you could have water coming in.
 
  #13  
Old 05-24-11, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by drooplug View Post
All these pipes drain to daylight as well?

Water seeks it's own level. Based on the little bit of knowledge of have about this subject, the perforated pipe sits level and gathers water. As the water rises in the pipe, it flows out via the unperforated pipe that goes to daylight if you have one, or into a sump pit to be pumped out. The pipe creates a pth with no resistance for the water to flow. If it is below your slab, it should prevent water from coming into the basement. I don't know what kind of effect having the pipe sloped would have. I suppose if the high point of the pipe is above the slab, you could have water coming in.
yes all 3 pipes drain at the front of my yard down a slope, you can see water pouring out
 
  #14  
Old 07-08-11, 08:40 AM
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well tomorrow he said he will come look over the yard and start in a week or so...im resolved to let him do the drain in the pipe that already has been dug thru the foundation, no sense looking back.

but i need a few more yard drains in back and ill see what else he comes up with

ill also ask him about the possibility of the backup in the crawlspace...i cant picture that really happening anymore than it already is..the crawl is on the furtherst part of the front of the house so it would have to push uphill back to the house pretty good.
 
  #15  
Old 07-08-11, 06:05 PM
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The bottom pipe should be below the level of the floor in your crawl space at its highest point by several inches. Having it slope as it goes towards the front of your house isn't a problem and should really help. The idea that was mentioned previously about installing a Sump with a pump is an excellent idea. It should discharge into one of the other pipes, the best would probably be the one from your gutters. I definitely don't believe holes through the foundation will be of any benefit and the existing ones should be sealed.
 
  #16  
Old 07-09-11, 06:40 PM
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actually the sloping is the issue according to him. He finally explained it in a way i understand. Also he admitted his guy did it wrong and that he does all his drains level..maybe a tad sloped, unsure which, but def not the way it's done now. The way he explained it is he actually made it worse than before the project because instead of the water having to go thru all the clay, it now has clean stone to pour thru then since in the back of the house pipe is sloped so 'steeply' the water has to get many inches high before it even reaches the pipe and therefore it finds its way around the membrane and into the crawl. he's confident this is a huge part of the issue or he wouldnt be back here fixing it free. he said the pipe should be level just above the bottom of the ditch so it fills up to the pipe quickly and all goes toward the front. He's just not sure how bad the slope is and may have to only dig up 1/2 the house instead of the whole but 1/2 def has to be done

regarding the drain in the front of the house, since the pvc is already thru the foundation im' inclined to let him crawl in and put a proper drain. he will not tie it to the gutter pipe, he will tie it to the foundation drain. i am not worried about water backing up in the crawl because it cant get worse than it is today lol..and the worse it's gonna do is drain slowly regardless, but remember, the goal here is to SEVERELY reduce or eliminate the water in the crawl so this really shouldnt even be an issue once he's done. i did ask if we could leave all this open before he fills in the dirt so we can see if it works and he said no, it has to be all put back together to really work..cant just leave all pipes exposed.


one other thing he noticed is my gutters are too close to the house, i need to put a 2x4 behind them to push them out farther so the water doesnt run over the edge so easily.
 
  #17  
Old 07-09-11, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by luckydriver View Post
one other thing he noticed is my gutters are too close to the house, i need to put a 2x4 behind them to push them out farther so the water doesnt run over the edge so easily.
? The gutters are designed to be attached to the fascia boards. If you space them out water will get behind them and cause the wood to rot or worse. You can't just go around spacing gutters away from the house without consequences. Having him make this statement makes me really wonder how much he knows about your problems!
 
  #18  
Old 07-09-11, 08:35 PM
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is there a rule how much of the gutter should be exposed to the roof...in some parts i can barely get a hand in there to clean them out
 
  #19  
Old 07-10-11, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by luckydriver View Post
is there a rule how much of the gutter should be exposed to the roof...in some parts i can barely get a hand in there to clean them out
There should definitely be more than that exposed (it's normally about 3/4 or so of the gutter) but the problem is with your roof not with the mounting of the gutters.
 
  #20  
Old 07-10-11, 09:44 AM
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well i'm not about the cut back my roof! so pushing out the gutters doesnt seem like such a bad idea after all i guess
 
  #21  
Old 04-19-12, 06:32 AM
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UPDATE 2012

Heís back and although Iíve probably explained stuff elsewhere in here, here is everything in nutshell
For some reason his experienced guy put the pipe with holes in it on a slope. I donít have the exact measurement but Iím guessing it was 6 to 12 inches off the floor of the ditch at the farthest point around the back of my house. My guess is he wanted to make sure the water ran the 200 ft to the front of the house. The owner of the company told me that is wrong, that the drain pipe should be pretty much level on a bed of stones on the bottom of the big ditch, not up high. Also before yesterday I did NOT know that the membrane that was used against the house was permeable and that it was designed to wick water away from the house to the ditch then be whisked away via the lowest drain pipe to the right front of the house. But now I know!
So what was happening was the water was getting so high in the ditch, on the left side of the house, and staying in there so long that it went thru the membrane and into the crawlspace. I have one larger rear porch pad and one tiny one. heís going to lower the pipe everywhere on the left side of the house except not digging up the large porch. He did remove the smaller pad. He said the water will find its level and that it should be ok. I can only hope. But if it doesnít he said he will tear out the large pad. He did laser the right side of the house and said that was correctly done ( he did some pilot holes to measure) so he wont be disturbing that side of the house. Which Iím happy about because there is no water in the right side of the house even after those 2 hurricanes last year. So since no water it has to be right! Well maybe a trickle but those were record-setting rains around these parts. So Iím glad heís not disturbing what works already.
Since the right side of the house works, heís going to take the left side of the house and T off it it where it meets the right sideÖand go further back in the yard a bit, at a diagonal, basically forming a triangle of pipe (vs running up against my inside corner of the house)..then it will hook up to the rear corner of the house. I know this is complicated without pictures and probably makes no sense. Basically itís adding yet another path for the rear of the house water and not disturbing the Ďgoodí work already done on that side corner. Thatís about 50ft of Ďgood pipeí that wont be disturbed plus my oil tanks are there.
Should be all done by tomorrow I hope then pray for a hurricane on Sunday so we can see if this works. The good news is that itís so dry here the crawl is bone dry so any water will be detectible easily.
Keeping my fingers crossed
 
  #22  
Old 04-19-12, 09:34 AM
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I am truly amazed that this saga continues.
It was over two years ago, that I told you how to resolve your problem.And about a year ago, that I suggested that you go outside when its raining to see how the open ditch was coping.
What can be so difficult about digging a ditch and watching some rainwater flow round a home.?
 
  #23  
Old 04-19-12, 11:43 AM
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he's the pro..i'm letting him solve it..it's what i paid for...we will see if what he does works..if we ever get any rain that is. id say since half the house is dry he did 1/2 the right job and is trying to correct the other half he seems to be on the right track.
 
  #24  
Old 04-20-12, 05:23 AM
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i stayed home today to supervise lol...actually now instead of lowering the existing pipe they are running a new one next to it so i should have 2x the drainage ! it will hook up back with the existing setup further toward the front of the house where the other pipe is set at the correct level!
 
  #25  
Old 04-26-12, 05:24 AM
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well he now admits there must be something else going on with water coming from under the house or something..the way it sits on the rock etc...he still has about 30 ft to dig up and double pipe but water came in the back, which is where he did run new pipe...so even with double piping it's coming in...

he put in a permanent drain in the crawl so ill never have inches of water standing in there again..just running thru it..also he will add a few more yard drains in effort to try to help out but beyond that i fear he doesnt know what else to do..

i guess i should be happy he even came back as most contractors never would have and i defintely do have all my gutter water and yard drains functioning correctly so i did get something for my money..just not perfection.
 
  #26  
Old 04-27-12, 07:36 AM
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continuing the blog..this will come in handy someday im sure

now we have real progress..they crawled in the crawlspace and saw in the rear and side of house exactly what was happening..rear has hole in block not visible from outside..so they will patch inside and dig up outside again near there...also they were here the other day after rain and saw where the water ran out of the rear retaining wall pipe and onto the back 'porch' area...big puddle and explains where under the house stuff happened..so he will put 2 more yard drains in back of the house to try to prevent the water from getting to the house..he will also plumb in a stub so i can put a new gutter on the rear porch roof myself and correctly divert that water..very good deal.....the side of the house is being dug up now and regraded more toward the existing yard drain..saw them use the laser for that...also they discovered that on the side of the house the footer isnt as thick as it should be and someone just built it up with mortar so thats part of the issue there too. sigh.....but he's doing a lot of work and i can tell he does want this fixed..not just a patch job..has to dig up some stuff he just did a week ago to do this so i'd say i'm pretty happy at this point...stay tuned

oh also found out in the crawl i have 2 inches of concrete and they put in a 10 inch hole and filled with fresh stone around the 4 inch pipe that drains through the block wall. the only thing i dont get is why they installed pipe with holes in but i guess they know what they are doing
 

Last edited by luckydriver; 04-27-12 at 08:06 AM.
  #27  
Old 05-01-12, 06:18 AM
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almost done...2 new yard drains put in sides of the house graded away from house...holes patched with hydraulic cement in and OUTside (yes dug up again)...2nd footer drain all installed correctly on the bed of stones..

also found out the reason for using pipe with holes in for the crawl drain is that since it's embedded in new stone, i have no maintenance issues as i would with a typical floor drain and cover..i have 'junk' that would float down to the drain and if it had the typical screen i'd have to crawl in there and unclog it..but with the stones and the hole pipe. it will flow right thru the stones and virtually never clog up..plus would have to be more than 1 inch of water in the pipe to reach the level of the holes..also though we hope no water ever does come in..it has yet another way to drain..the stones into the earth now.

while putting in the yard drains he ran into so much rock he couldnt even connect them how he wanted to because rock was in the way.....i guess thats a good thing, my house will never settle lol
 
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