Finishing my basement

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Old 01-02-13, 06:03 PM
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Finishing my basement

Hi all at DIY. I've been trying to find a forum for home renos for a while and not many exist. I posted this question on another diy forum but was having threads merged with it and responses were few and far between. So I figured I'd give it a shot it.

I'm redoing my basement. I live in a back split in Ontario Canada and I'm redoing the lowest level basement. The fiancées father did it before and he did a horrible job... (running wires outside walls, unfinished drop ceilings, poor framing and drywall work etc.)

So needless to say I'm ripping everything down and am starting from scratch...

I've redone 2 full bath rooms before, a powder room, and most of a kitchen before so I feel I got a decent understanding of how things are done though I've never taken on a project as big as a whole basement before.

I've been doing some research and I'm thinking of doing 1 in rigid foam on the floor with 5/8th plywood on top or just using barricade subfloor tiles. Then on the walls I plan on using 2 in rigid foam glued directly to the concrete, then framing and filling the vats on the wall with your standard fiberglass insulation.

I read http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...lation-systems and they seem to suggest the same from what I can tell after doing my best to decipher all the technical stuff.

My question is with the rigid foam is it simply glued to the wall and floors with a construction adhesive approved for foam? Some have told me to use a closed grid pattern when gluing it as it makes the surface area for condensation to form small enough to short circuit the process in the event air gets back there. I haven't been able to find that advice on any manufacture's website and only a few spots on the web....

I saw this video Best way to insulate a basement - YouTube and was wondering if its as simple as it looks?

To me it looks like its done in the following steps.

1) The foam on the floor is laid without any fastening or adhesive. The joints are sealed with glue approved for foam the lay the plywood and screw it down. (or use the barricade subfloor which im considering.)

2) Cut the 1/4 in expansion slot (though I've read that its not really required because foam shrinks over time instead of expanding.

3) fill the expansion slot with foam and then glue the wall boards to the wall and seal the joints same as before. The boards go all the way to the joist and then between joist I will cut a pieces of foam to fit in between and glue it in place and then seal with spray foam again.

4) Tape all joints.

5) frame wall and fill bats with fiberglass insulation. No vapour barrier on the outside.

6) Drywall and done :P

Is that pretty much it?
 
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Old 01-02-13, 06:08 PM
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Little more info.. This is an older house. Probably built in 1983. So Im pretty sure there is no foam or anything under the concrete floor.
 
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Old 01-02-13, 07:21 PM
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Welcome to the forums! Sorry your experience at the Brand X forums was so lackluster. You'd better grab hold here!!

I think your idea on the barricade tile on the floor is solid. Should you ever have a moisture problem it will take it much better. Even with the foam on the floor, you will have to fasten the sub to it, and drive a kazillion holes through it, so what's the real benefit? Don't guess I can talk you into installing ceramic tile throughout with throw rugs scattered about, huh??

Building Science is a good reference, but don't get caught up too much in the "scientific" part of it. No one authority can give a definitive guideline for every instance, climate, or region, so take it with a grain of salt.

Frame your wall with about 1" spacing from the foam boards. If this is a below grade basement, you can insulate with fiberglas or Roxul if you want, but basically it is redundant as the temperature of the basement will not vary much year round.

In addition to "more" information, you will get varying information, so pick and choose to suit your situation, as we can't cover all the bases. Good luck with the remodel and let us help if we can.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 08:04 AM
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thanks for the prompt reply.. When i redid the basement kitchen at my old house we ripped up the vinyl floor and laid ciramic. It was easiest abd best becaue I rented it (durable) and the floor wasnt the most level (so i could fix some of the problems when using the morter and make them less noticable)

I live here though and anticipate using the basement quiet often as its going to double as my workshop / home theater room... So a little warmth on the floor will be nice.



The 1 inch space on the wall is that so th ewalls can be true? Or does it serve some other purpose?

If i do put fiber glass or roxul there is no vapour barrier right? Because the foam board acts as one?



Also I have a main duct running right through the center of the room. Is their a way to get more head room there? after its noxed in and floor is done I should still have just over 6 feet but a little more would be nice...
 
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Old 01-03-13, 08:07 AM
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Sorry for the typos. Replied via my phone...
 
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Old 01-03-13, 09:34 AM
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Welcome to the forum (better late then never).
The vapour barrier with basements is an interesting topic I've looked at (for my own basement finishing project) and have read and received many different answers.
Some say the vapour barrier goes on the warm side of the studs, others between the concrete and the studs.
One general concenses I got was any wood that touches the concrete directly should be pressure treated.

For the insulation... On below grade areas, Going foam board and fiberglass will be redundant and not nessessary. If anything, I would go with one or the other (not both).
From personal experience, I have approximately 1345sqft of unfinished, below grade (non heated) basement. It's currently about 55'F down there (give or take) with the outside ambiant temp around 5'F (-15'C for us Canadians).

The 1" spacing between the finished wall and the concrete wall is generally to allow air movement to reduce moisture issues. It also helps give some play room to make everything square. If you are dealing with an old house (mine's 1930's), this is a big help.

As for the main duct work... You might want to ask that question in the HVAC area. The pros there will probably have some questions before they can provide any answers or solutions.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 11:51 AM
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Hey mike

The foam board is being glued directly to the wall and is 2 in thick. From my understanding at that size its a vapour barrier on its own. So thats why I was wondering if its necessare to leave that 1 in gap between the Stud wall and the Foam board. I know there will be some gap along its length to make it true but is 1in required with 2 in foam board glued directly to the wall? From what I read on building science there was never any mention of it.

Also what about installing the barricade sub floor and then framing the walls 1in or 2 in off the concrete then spraying closed cell spray foam from floor to in between the joist?

Ive read that it also acts as a vapour barrier as well. Ive seen diy kits that cover 700 sq feet which is bigger than the space I'm doing. Not sure if they're open or closed cell kits though. Have to look at them more closely.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 12:07 PM
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I would think that you would be fine with the foam board, then studs against it. Be sure to seal all the seams between sheets of foam.

I have a friend that used barricade sub floor when finishing his basement. I think he put the walls in, then the subfloor. This way if you ever have to pull your floor up, you won't affect your walls.
I'll send him a quick message and find out what order he laid things down. He went through full inspections (building, electrical, etc) on this project, so it was to code or better in Ontario.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 12:31 PM
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Thanks. If you could give me the idea on how he did it overall I'd appreciate it.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 05:24 PM
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Until Mike gets back from recess, I would interject the wall plates and wall go in first, then the flooring.
 
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Old 01-05-13, 04:56 PM
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Thanks Chandler. Any word northern mike?



Also was wondering what about framing the wall 1 inch off the concrete and then spray foaming the concrete with one of those DIY closed cell kits?
 
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Old 01-06-13, 06:20 AM
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Yeah, his wife is having a baby and won't be with us for a few weeks.

Frame the wall 1" away from the foam (plate flat on the concrete) and keep going. You're thinking too much into the sealing of this area, and you may do more harm than good by doing it. It needs to breathe.
 
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Old 01-06-13, 08:05 AM
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Just to toss in my 2 cents.

I agree 100% not putting foam on the floor. You do not want to trap any moisture. Dricore or similar is the way to go. I worked on the basement that had it and was shocked how warm the floor was.
 
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Old 01-06-13, 03:18 PM
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Barricade isn't flat with the floor. It has a 2 in channel in a grid pattern when installed.. So water can move in the event of a problem.
 
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Old 01-06-13, 06:13 PM
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I was emphasizing not to put the wall plate on top of your Barricade. Install the walls then install your flooring choice.
 
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Old 01-06-13, 09:27 PM
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Sorry the last message was directed to tolyn. I see your logic for not installing on top of the subfloor and agree.
 
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Old 01-07-13, 06:13 AM
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No baby yet...

Talked to my buddy and here is what he had done (keeping in mind he had to have everything inspected to comply with the home owners association in his area (gated community).
He used a rubberized sealant on the concrete (couldn't remember the brand or exact type), on the walls and under the base plate.
Studs where ~1/2" from concrete to help square off the room. All wood touching the concrete was pressure treated.
Fiberglass batt between studs, then finished off with plastic and drywall.

Basic recap... Concrete --> sealing paint -->studs/insuation --> plastic --> drywall.

He also put the walls up before the subfloor.

I had heard of floor before walls and walls before floors. Depends on who you talk to. I would personally go walls then floor in a basement. If you have to pull up the floor for any reason, you can do so without having to take down the walls.
 
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Old 01-08-13, 11:16 AM
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Thanks Mike..

I was curious about another option.

I'm crunching numbers now and trying to break down cost and In foam board alone (2x8 2in boards) I'm looking at $1300....

I saw this kit at Lowes Touch 'n Foam Low Pressure Polyurethane Foam Sealant - Lowe's Canada

That does 600 board feet and is almost half price. Is it a viable option?

The level of basement I'm finishing is 340 squarfeet +-
 
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Old 01-08-13, 08:49 PM
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a board foot is only an inch thick so if you want two inches, you would only get 300 or less sq ft. keep in mind those kits can work but aesthetically are not as appealing. If you are lucky you get an orange peel -like texture but depending on the temperature of your substrate, it could be a lot worse. I would only spray two-part poly foam if your substrate is 60 degrees or more. Also most building code require a fire retardant coating or drywall because fumes are noxious if ignited. Keep in mind that insulating below grade is redundant since below grade substrates do not vary much in temperature.

The way holmes did it is pretty much the best way to do it in your climate. Good Luck, this is a topic that draws many opinions.

Derek
Building Analyst and Weatherization Technician
 
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Old 01-13-13, 10:10 AM
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Ok guys so I've decide to go spray foam.

I got several quotes. The cheapest I found to do my basement was approx $1300 + tax for 3 in of lb close cell about r20.

the most expensive was $2300 for the same.

I'm going to go with a guy who quoted me $1585 + tax because I didn't get the feeling that he was shifty like the cheaper guy.

My cost estimate for the 2in foam board was $1300 tax in but then I had to buy glue, tape and my time.

So the Spray foam seem well worth it.
 
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Old 01-13-13, 10:14 AM
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Couple photos so far. You can see the old framing job of how it was done. The was essentially done in 2 parts with a 2x6 sticking out in the middle to mount shelves. Not very aesthetically pleasing to say the least.

Its all been tore down and the new framing has started. Probably about 40-50% done the framing.
 
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Old 01-14-13, 01:02 PM
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I have a main duct running right through the center of the room. Is their a way to get more head room there? after its noxed in and floor is done I should still have just over 6 feet but a little more would be nice...
On this second question: Height and width don't matter in ductwork. Cross-sectional area is what matters. You can gain headroom by reducing the height of the duct while increasing its width to maintain the same in.[SUP]2[/SUP] (or cm.[SUP]2[/SUP]) of flow area.
 
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Old 01-25-13, 06:43 PM
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Update

Ok so finished all framing. Roughed in my plumbing for the wet bar and all the electrical outlets (minus lighting) are in.

So next is to essentially arrange the spray foam then to do subfloor and drywall.


I have a question though in regards to lighting.

Im doing a drop ceiling and I'm leaning towards getting some LED pot lights either 4 or 6 in ones. Lowes has them at $39.99 each.

I priced some LED panels since I figured it would be easier but the cost and since you cant dim them them didn't make it worth while.

From the diagram I drew you can see the rough layout of the duct work in the room.

On the left side I plan to put a bar. so roughly 24 in +- will be taken up by the upper cabinets so that space is gone. on the 6 foot side is where my tv is going.

My question is what spacing would you guys recommend on the lights to get adequate light coverage and avoid dark spots?

After the drop ceiling is installed I'm guessing that only 4-6 in of the ductwork boxes will be below. Measuring to the remaining pieces of drop ceiling up I get 7 feet exact from concrete to tracks. Install the barricade (1.25in) and some laminate (10-15 mm) and I'm down to 6'10" + of head space.

Can I push it to every 6 feet for the 6" pot lights? Would I start measuring at the wall or the edge of the boxes?
 
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Old 01-29-13, 08:22 PM
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My question is what spacing would you guys recommend on the lights to get adequate light coverage and avoid dark spots?
The short answer is that we can't advise you on that because it depends on the ceiling height, the spread characteristics of the fixture and what you consider to be adequate coverage. How high off the floor do you want the coverage to overlap, for example. In addition, the coverage can be changed on most recessed fixtures by changing the lamp and/or by adjusting the height of the lampholder inside the housing.

You'll have to spend some tome studying the coverage diagrams and looking at lighted fixtures in showrooms. Even after that, I would buy two or three of the ones that look promising and lay them in place, without cutting any tile, to see what I got. Be careful opening the boxes to minimize hassle when you go back to exchange them.
 
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Old 02-15-13, 09:45 AM
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After much delay spray foam done now... basement feels warmer already!
Now onto subfloor
 
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Old 02-19-13, 03:07 PM
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subfloor installed. Used Barricade tiles
 
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Old 03-09-13, 08:53 AM
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Finished putting my drywall up.. Hired someone to tape and sand since I don't have the patience...

Bought my laminate. Chose the golden select from costco. Its 15.3 mm with pad attached. Works out about 1.70 Canadian a sqfoot.. Its also going on sale Monday for anyone interested. $7a box off. So works out to be about %1.48 sqft.

https://www.goldenselect.ca/en/laminate/mocha-walnut

Next photos after paint and floors.
 
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Old 05-08-13, 09:07 AM
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Update time...

Been a while. I've been plugging away while doing the last min wedding plans since my life is over in 3 weeks...

Paint, drop ceiling, most of baseboard, lighting done!
 
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Old 05-08-13, 09:12 AM
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Next question is whats the best way to close in these stairs?

Is it as simple as using something like this from Lowes?

36-in x 10-1/2-in Unfinished Oak Interior Stair Tread - Lowe's Canada
 
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Last edited by mopar44o; 05-08-13 at 09:31 AM.
  #30  
Old 05-08-13, 09:44 AM
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Also does this look like a load bearing wall? It goes right up the centre of the house so I'm assuming it is.. I was hoping to widen the hole to make a storage place more accessible under the stairs. Maybe cutting one out and doubling the other two studs then going across the top and making a bigger opening.
 
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Old 05-08-13, 10:12 AM
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Also one more thing. The walls on either side of the stairs are technically interior walls.. The house is a back split so that side is the interior side. I ended up using ferring strips on the right side because the wall was more wavy and glued the drywall to it. On the left I glued it directly to the concrete. I figured since its an interior wall even if its below ground it should be fine. Opinions?
 
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Old 05-08-13, 10:58 AM
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Looks really good. Might have to invite you over when I do my basement.
I missed reading if you hired someone to spray foam or did it yourself.
 
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Old 05-08-13, 12:32 PM
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Thanks! I hired someone. Foamit.ca was cheapest for closed cell. What about the stairs and the drywall on the concrete? Any opinions?
 
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Old 05-09-13, 04:05 AM
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Thanks for the info on the spray foam.
For the drywall, I would use strapping between it and the concrete (something common in Australia if I'm not mistaken). This will allow you a bit of air flow between the drywall and concrete (the strapping will compensate for any movement/expansion/contraction) and condensation that could occur.

As for the stair treads.... I looked at those the last time I was at lowes. Was there with a friend picking up some finishing items for his basement and noticed them. If the fitment is good with your stairs, it would then come down to cost/time. You may or may not be able to make your own cheaper.
 
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Old 08-14-13, 12:17 PM
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I hate you...
Just kidding, turned out fabulous! Congrats!
 
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