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Need advice/opinions on repair of leaking craked poured foundation please

Need advice/opinions on repair of leaking craked poured foundation please

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  #1  
Old 04-17-13, 10:17 PM
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Need advice/opinions on repair of leaking craked poured foundation please

Hi everyone. Yes, I'm a noob around here. I figured that since every time I "google" something I wind up on this site getting most of the info I'm looking for; I might as well join up and become part of the community!

Anyway, here's my issue. I live in a 16 year old bungalow located in south-western Ontario (Canada). Last fall we had some very significant rain and winds from the tail end of hurricane Sandy, which exposed a leak on the wall of our house that faced the driving rain. Unfortunately, ever since then we've had water seeping into our finished basement along that wall whenever there is a significant rainfall. So far this spring we've had some significant rain on top of the thaw and we've been "managing" the water infiltration by soaking it up with beach towels (as I have laminate flooring installed, which I UNinstalled about 4 feet back from the problem area), in an attempt to keep it from reaching and wrecking more of my flooring. This was working fine, but it's now time to fix this leak.


Unfortunately the "proper" repair which consists of excavating along the outside of the wall and waterproofing, etc is financially just out of the question for us. We have a deck which is built over the original contractor's concrete pad which is all right over top of where this leak is happening, which adds to the already high cost of this job. So, I've been seeking out my other options.

Last week (during a pretty heavy rain storm) I tore down some drywall, insulation, etc around where the water appeared to be coming in. Low and behold, I exposed a hairline crack which extends from top to bottom of my foundation and at that time had a steady (very small) stream of water coming from it.

In my search for an alternative to the exterior repair for this crack, I've spoken with many different building contractors, building material suppliers, basement leak "experts", concrete guys, and so on and I'm left with the following options (which I'll price out too, just FYI):

1) Exterior waterproofing (A LOT of money, a LOT destructive to existing structures).

2) A "water management system" which a few well-known and long-standing local companies do. A small hole is busted into my floor, then flashing is sealed around the crack and assures that the water entering is directed into my interior drainage tile. Nothing is done to stop the water from entering, it's simply "managed". The cost for this is about $800, plus drywall work. Comes with a 25 year "guarantee" (not sure I give guarantees on this kinda stuff much weight).

3) A polyurethane crack injection to "seal" the crack and (hopefully) stop water from entering altogether. I've researched other injection products (epoxy, different forms of concrete, etc) and come to the conclusion that if any of these injections are going to work (and last), it will be the PU product (correct me if I'm wrong!), so this is what I've settled on as an option. Within this option are the following:

a) Have a basement leak "specialist" do the injection at a cost anywhere from $600 to $800. "Guarantees" are anywhere from 5 years to lifetime.

b) Order a DIY PU injection kit and do the job myself for under $150 in most cases. I have done lots of research on this as well, and think that if I go this route I will likely purchase THIS KIT. I've spoken with the company and they were VERY helpful, down to earth, sincere people. Their story is that the owner of the company is actually the chemist who came up with this product (the PU injection stuff) 25 or so years ago. Their website has an instructional video from start to finish, and customer feedback that I've found has been stellar. So, I think this is the route I'll go if I try the injection method myself.


So guy (and girls), all that said, here are a few pictures of what I'm dealing with here. One thing I haven't come across too many answers about is the gap between my floor and my foundation wall. I'm assuming it's a "floating floor", but could/does this aid at all in draining leaks like this away? If so, the insulation (or whatever that is) seems to be getting in the way of this because it soaks up the water, then leaks up and over onto my floor. I've dug some of this stuff out just to see what happens. Most of these pictures were just taken now, as we're having yet another big rainfall.


Thanks so much for any help. Here are the pictures:


The crack doesn't fork off into 2 cracks at the bottom; the water is just dripping down a path from above that doesn't follow the crack...





 
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  #2  
Old 04-17-13, 10:32 PM
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I figured that since every time I "google" something I wind up on this site getting most of the info I'm looking for; I might as well join up and become part of the community!
Yup......that's why I joined.

Welcome to to the forums.

I'm not in this line of work but I read every post and I have a question/observation.

We have a deck which is built over the original contractor's concrete pad which is all right over top of where this leak is happening
It sounds like the source of your problem is the deck. I haven't seen too many inside sealing jobs that actually stop the water unless the source is stopped or reduced.

Others will stop by and leave their input.
 
  #3  
Old 04-17-13, 10:42 PM
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Thanks for chiming in. My post was getting a little long, so I didn't get too far into all of the investigations I have done preceding the drywall removal. I did infact dismantle a portion of the deck to observe what was underneath and if water was pooling or being directed toward the house, or if a lag bolt was leaking, etc ... Unfortunately I didn't see any reason to think that the deck had much or anything to do with the leak. That's just my layman's opinion though.
I will also add that the house is built in some very nasty clay earth, and from previous digging I've done (to bury my hot tub power wire), I'm sure that its not "properly" backfilled around the house. Even houses they're building today in this neighbourhood, I observe how they backfill and shake my head. Basically they just throw the clay and construction material in as backfill.
 
  #4  
Old 04-18-13, 04:14 AM
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Welcome to the forum from north of yourself. I also joined for the very same reason as you.

As most (or all) will tell you, outside is the place to stop the water before it starts coming in. I know it's not the answer you where looking for, but it is what it is.

Getting straight to the issue... On the outside of this wall, you have a deck. What is above the deck and/or above this leaking wall?
What side of the house is this wall on?

Clay is going to make this interesting and a bit tougher of a DIY job. If it was my home (I'm also on a tight budget and would prefer a DIY job), I would lift enough deck boards to allow to work.
Breaking out the shovel, clear the outside of the concrete wall right down to the bottom of the crack. This is going to be a very physical job.
Once the entire crack (and probably a foot on either side) is clear, you'll be able to see how bad it is and repair the cracking. Once repaired (with proper materials), treat the area with a coat of waterproofing tar of spray on rubber. Do this right up and above grade.

This is not the perfect solution, but will take care of this crack and keep it from leaking. It will also give you a chance to see if a weeping tile exists along that wall. Once you are financially able too, you can go through and install or fix the water drainage along that wall.

Hopefully one of the concrete pros and/or foundation guys can pipe up with suggested materials and/or correct any mistakes I may have included. I don't do foundations for a living, but have had helpped deal with them. My home is also built in clay (47ft deep clay on my property).
 
  #5  
Old 04-18-13, 06:55 AM
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There are two steps you can take outside at lower cost and less damage. One is to seal the joint where the concrete pad meets the foundation with a flexible, weatherproof material such as a caulk made for concrete. The other is to make sure that there is a proper flashing installed st the top of the ledger board for the deck, so that all water running down the side of the house is diverted away from the ledger and the area behind it.

If you've already done both of these it's time to move on to other ideas.
 
  #6  
Old 04-18-13, 07:04 AM
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Thanks for taking the time to respond. The foundation certainly does have a weeping tile, both interior and exterior, as shown by the 2 big O lines that come into my sump pit. Water certainly never POURS into the pit, but during a decent rain one of the lines trickles in at a decent rate (and also has a bit of a build up of crud where the water runs). The other line, I have never seen water come out of and is completely clean.

As for what's above the crack; its probably near where the support beam is, but I can't be sure because I haven't dug around in the ceiling too much. There's also a sliding door above the crack, but that's built into the brick veneer/framing, not the foundation.

At ground level on the other side of the crack, there is a wood deck which is built over top of the original concrete pad patio. I have explored this by taking up deck boards, and did not observe any issues that struck me as contributors to the leak/crack. There is nothing else but open pergola over the deck.

As I said, I'm aware that an exterior repair is the best way to do this, but there would be more to it than simply taking up a few deck boards. I would have to disassemble a good portion of my deck in order to get the joists out of the way, etc. Then the concrete slab under the deck would have to be busted out as well. THEN it would be digging time... 8 feet down in heavy clay too. The labor doesn't scare me much as I'm a young, fit guy. But the rest of the job does (financially and required skills/knowledge).

One avenue I have not explored yet is digging down to the footing/big O where I'm NOT impeded by the deck, etc and snaking my tile to check for obstructions. This could definitely be done at some point. But I really think it's an issue of the clay holding the moisture against the foundation, and then the crack allowing some of that to seep through. I could definitely be wrong though.

A picture from when I had the deck apart a few months ago...

 

Last edited by wes8398; 04-18-13 at 07:23 AM.
  #7  
Old 04-18-13, 07:15 AM
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Is the point between the pad and the foundation sealed? Is the deck ledger flashed?
 
  #8  
Old 04-18-13, 07:26 AM
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You're talking about on the outside, where the concrete patio is under the decking, right? I can't tell what's UNDER the pad, but from above it does not appear to be flashed or sealed against the foundation. It does not appear to be graded toward the house though.
 
  #9  
Old 04-18-13, 08:21 AM
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Sorry, I missed the (important) bit about there being a concrete slab right there.
I think Nashkat1 is on the right track and has the same idea I have now that this slab bit has been clarified.

I'm assuming there is a gutter above catching the rain water from the roof?
 
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Old 04-18-13, 04:11 PM
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Don't discount the window, slider, flue and the dryer vent as the source of the water. It does appear that the dryer vent is below grade relative to the deck. Why is that so? Is that area sealed. Where is the leak exactly in relation to the picture you sent us? How high off the concrete slab is the new deck?
 
  #11  
Old 04-18-13, 08:34 PM
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Mike - Yes, the roof has eves which catch all the rainwater. There are 3 downspouts total on my house, all of which I have put extensions on and assured that they drain away from the house (about 5 feet away). There is NOT a downspout on the side of the house that this crack/leak is located. The eves over the crack/leak drain about 40 feet away from the crack, and the downspout/extension point AWAY from this wall.

czizzi - When I dismantled the deck, I also re-caulked/sealed the dryer vent, the sliding door sill, conduit, etc. I didn't re-caulk all the windows, etc because they're in pretty good shape already. Also, none of the recent rain has been directional and driving at this wall. The brick always stays bone dry (accept from when Sandy came through. That was 3 days straight of HARD driving rain right at this wall). So, I don't think the windows and sliding door are involved in the leak.

In that picture, the crack appears to be almost smack between the sliding door and window. Conveniently enough, I believe (haven't confirmed) that the support beam also runs through that area. I've heard that foundation cracks like this often occur at such an area.


A note of interest that I've been watching over the last 36 hours ... See the "trench" between my foundation and basement floor? That was stuffed with insulation of some sort (which was drenched) before I removed a good portion of it yesterday (when I took some of those pics). Since then we've had a few more storms roll through with some really torrential downpours - especially today. In that time, I've been keeping a close eye on the crack. While it's still leaking, the water has remained in this "trench" and appears as though it might be finding its way UNDER the floor. There has been no water making its way onto the top of the floor. When I feel this trench with my fingers, I can definitely feel a seam where the bottom of the trench meets the floor. This is not sealed. Perhaps this is done purposely, so leaks such as this simply drain away and under the floor...? If so, it's obvious that stuffing this area with insulation was causing the insulation to become so saturated that the leak wouldn't reach the bottom of the trench but rather run over the saturated insulation and onto the top of my floor. What do you guys think about this theory?

I should also add that I took a closer look at my sump pit today. Namely, the lines coming into it. The 2nd line (that I said always stays dry) appears to be only about 10" long, and then it's just gravel (the base of the floor). I dug away at it to see if it was an obstruction, and it definitely wasn't. The line just ends about 10" back from the sump pit. So, that line is not an interior tile (unfortunately).
 
  #12  
Old 04-19-13, 06:19 AM
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Do you have any pictures without all the snow? Would like to see more detail about the deck, how it is attached, if it is flashed, what the house to ground transition looks like, etc...
 
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Old 04-19-13, 07:54 AM
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Given the weather coming through Ontario, asking for non-snow picks could be a tough one. (just kidding, we're not getting more snow here until tonight.)

All jokes aside, it's going to be a tough one to address with that concrete slab where it is. It sounds like you have most or all water management items in check in this area. I'm assuming the inside part of the crack is not the worst part of it. Without addressing the outside part of the crack, you will not be able to stop all the water and some is going to come in.

How old is the house btw?
I'm wondering if this was just a bad batch/pour of concrete (too much add mixture, raining when poured, etc). This crack may have existed back when the house was built or started shortly after and just got bad over time.
 
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Old 04-20-13, 01:12 PM
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Any opinions on what I mentioned about this "trench" appearing to manage the leak just fine now that I've removed the insulation that was stuffed in there? The water now simply drains under the floor, and goes away. Even through a huge downpour we had on Wednesday. Thoughts?

czizzi - the snow is gone, but the deck got put back together as soon as I could get out there without freezing my hands off. The deck is a bit complicated as its an original deck on the left side (just soil underneath), with a newer deck built onto it from the sliding door, over (covering the concrete pad). The "old" deck is attached to the house by a runner that's lag bolted into the foundation. I made sure there were no issues with the lag bolts and also re-caulked along the length of the runner against the brick (no, it's not flashed). The right (newer) side of the deck [(which covers the concrete pad, as well as the area where the foundation is cracked (seems to be at the support beam area)]does not bolt into the foundation and is not attached to the house at all. It's supported by feet that sit on the concrete pad under it.

Mike - the outside of the crack is no worse than the inside; which I assumed was pretty insignificant as cracks go. It's less than a dime's width wide at its widest point anywhere.
The house is 15 years old.
 
  #15  
Old 04-20-13, 03:12 PM
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If you can see the crack on the outside, clean it out and seal it with an epoxy made for concrete.

Since the leak is where the newer part of the deck sits on the concrete pad, don't worry about flashing the ledger. Do clean out and caulk the seam where the pad abuts the foundation.
 
  #16  
Old 04-20-13, 10:45 PM
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Nash - from what I understand after much reading and many conversations with professionals; epoxy is an inferior product to polyurethane, in the case of foundation crack sealing. Epoxy dries to a hard, brittle substance which easily deteriorates over time and movement (of either side of the crack). Polyurethane on the other hand, dries to a somewhat pliable substance which still keeps moisture out, but can also move with the crack, to a point. Can you provide any arguments here? I'm new to all this and want to hear all sides!
 
  #17  
Old 04-21-13, 12:59 AM
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Your epoxy information is only partially correct. Not all epoxies are hard and brittle, just those with a high modulus of elasticity. Low modulus epoxies remain somewhat pliable, similar to polyurethanes, but are usually considerably stronger than most polyurethanes, and also more durable and less susceptible to deterioration with age.

When warmer weather returns, you might give consideration to installing an appropriate water-proof sealant between the slab and the house foundation. There's probably an expansion filler there now which makes a poor water barrier, especially with that dryer vent so nicely melting all of the snow in the immediate area, and I suspect doing a good job of keeping a clear, unfrozen pathway for melt water getting down along the foundation.
 
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Old 04-21-13, 06:16 AM
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Thanks for the info. It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that opinions on PU vs. Epoxy vary quite a bit. There definitely doesn't seem to be one clear "winner".

Thankfully, I think my basement floor would stay completely dry even if I didn't bother doing anything about the crack, due to that "trench" working properly now that I've removed the obstruction (insulation) from it. So, we'll see how the Emecole PU injection works and even if water is still entering, I think I'm still safe...
 
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Old 04-21-13, 07:34 AM
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I still think you need to address the water infiltration for several reasons.

1. you have laminate flooring down there
2. you will have to run a dehumidifier non-stop to keep the RH down
3. moisture begets mold, insects, and other critters
4. You may be able to handle the small trickle now, but you stated you were using beach towels before.
5. you are in a high freeze/thaw zone. Moisture trapped between the house, slab and foundations may cause additional headaches down the road.
 
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Old 04-21-13, 06:48 PM
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czizzi - As long as the water isn't making it's way onto the top of the concrete floor (and subsequently being absorbed by my laminate flooring), I'm happy. It's a basement. Basements will always be ... well ... basements. LOL I don't run dehumidifiers, never have, and I've always been perfectly comfortable down there. As for the crack itself, I suppose there's always going to be a chance that it's going to get worse and cause issues again. I accept that, and I guess I'm willing to take the risk that this could happen because I think this crack has been there a long time, and I don't think it's going anywhere. Moisture on the outside might freeze to the 6-8" frost line here, but it's not likely to freeze below that. I also find it hard to believe that soil/moisture will freeze when it's sitting against (or in the case of the crack, when it's sitting inside) a foundation that contains a heated area. Insulation; sure. But that heat finds cold, and there's no doubt that some if it will make it there. I've looked at the outside of the house with an infrared camera, and it's obvious that the foundation is significantly warmer than the ground ... ya know?

I agree that the water entry needs to be addressed somehow. That's what I'm hoping the PU injection will do for me. It may not take care of the underlying issues that are allowing the moisture to sit against the foundation, but hopefully it'll stop the water from entering the crack. All I was saying was that even if it doesn't completely stop the leak, any amount of water that does still come in can now make it's way down the wall, into the trough, and then underneath the floor to drain away. This is what I've been observing happening over the last few days. We had a pretty torrential downpour the other day, and water certainly came in the crack, but it just ran all the way down the wall, into the (now empty) trough, and quickly made its way under the floor, never to be seen again.

To fix this whole problem "properly", we'd be talking thousands and thousands of dollars to excavate around the entire footing of the house, and then back-fill around it properly. I'm well aware that this problem all begins with the heavy clay that my home is built in, and the builder's choice to back-fill around the foundation with this same clay (and likely construction material, garbage, scrap, etc). It rains or thaws, then the clay holds all this moisture right against the foundation ... which happens to be cracked. I'm pretty confident that this crack has been there a long time, and this leak has likely been there a long time as well (long, relative to the 15 years the home has been around). Owners previous to us had carpet down there though, and this area has likely always been covered up by a couch. So if the floor ever got a little wet, it could easily have been missed.

EDIT - please don't mistake this for me arguing with you! I appreciate anyone who takes time out of their day to try and help a complete stranger. I invite you to educate me if I'm way off in my way of thinking...
 
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Old 04-22-13, 06:08 AM
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This is what I was trying to investigate by asking for pictures without snow of the underbelly of the deck. I also think that this is what Nashkat1 has been trying to describe. I have stopped several water issues in basements by either caulking, pointing or hydrolic cement. Your foundation and slab were poured at two different times. If you want to keep water from the foundation, you need to seal where these two meet. If you also have a crack as shown you will need to seal that as well. Its is not a "thousands and thousands of dollars" repair. It is a couple of tubes of quality caulking, backer rod if necessary and a caulk gun. That along with some sweat equity to remove some deck boards to inspect, and proceed with the repair.

You can not fix the leak from inside. You will not be happy with a constant drip of water in your basement. The water does not magically disappear when it goes down the trough, it settles under the basement slab and will leach itself out over time.
 
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Old 04-22-13, 08:56 AM
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Sorry for the misunderstanding/miscommunication that seems to be taking place. I'm very grateful for you guys taking the time to guide me to the most efficient way to solve this issue.

I thought I'd mentioned in one of my replies that the deck's been put back together, and I cannot get the pictures you desire without taking those boards up again. I would consider doing this to seal the abutment of the patio slab and foundation with some caulking or something of that nature - for sure. The thing is - and unfortunately I managed to exclude this from my description - that patio slab ends in line with the RIGHT side of that sliding door. There is no slab in front of the door - just decking, then soil. And the foundation crack is right in that vicinity - somewhere between that side of the sliding door, and that window. That said, do you still think that sealing this abutment would be very beneficial, given that water falls through the decking and onto the soil right beside it anyway?

Regarding the basement floor and trench system ... There's a good amount of gravel under that floor slab, which I assumed would drain this leak water away quite easily. I can't see the moisture just sitting there ... would it? To clarify, my basement is NOT below the water table - even at the most wet of times. I don't see why any water underneath the basement floor slab would't drain through the gravel base, and into the earth below it. I could very well need to be enlightened here ... if you guys aren't sick of me yet.
 
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Old 04-22-13, 05:02 PM
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Sorry, I have no idea based on your description where the slab ends and the dirt begins. Can you upload a diagram or something to help?

Your exterior will have a trench with gravel and a perforated drain pipe to carry water away that seeps below the surface. Inside your foundation, you have nothing of the sort. You have fill dirt, maybe some sand and your slab. You are not draining into a french type drain, you are merely soaking the earth under your slab. The water or a portion of it will want to leach its way back north, or into your basement.
 
  #24  
Old 04-22-13, 06:56 PM
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How's this? The patio pad is under the deck in the area marked with green. I also marked about where the foundation crack is in red...



As for the basement floor - maybe it's a geographical thing, but I certainly DO have a gravel base under my basement floor. I live in a little subdivision that's still being developed, and my place is one of the oldest in the area at ~15 years. I've only lived here for 3, but I've observed the building of many, many places and every single one of them have at least 6" to a foot of gravel dumped into the area that was dug out for the basement, after the foundation is poured, and before the basement slab is poured.
This is further confirmed in my particular home when looking into one of the big O lines that comes into my sump pit. I spoke to this in an earlier post, but I have a picture of it now. One of the lines in my sump pit is only about a foot long, then leads to the gravel base that's under my basement floor. This is so that if the water table ever got high enough, it would begin draining into my sump pit for expulsion elsewhere. My house is easily a foot above the street's grade though, so the water table coming up that high is highly unlikely.



Things look a bit wet in there. It's not because water's been draining from here. Is just from my pump's pressure relief valve. It fires a tiny mist of water right at this line when the pump shuts off after a cycle. I've never seen evidence of water coming in this line, and I check my sump often...
 
  #25  
Old 04-22-13, 10:46 PM
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I would seal (caulk) the joint where the slab meets the foundation. I would clean out and epoxy-repair, on the exterior, as much of the foundation crack as I could expose. I would give some serious thought to laying in a drain to the left of the slab.
 
  #26  
Old 04-23-13, 08:13 AM
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Nashkat1 covered everything I would have suggested.
Personally, I'd be busting up that slab, dig down and see what is below grade, but this is going to be time/money consuming. If the slab is no longer used for what it was intended, it doesn't have to be replaced.
 
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