Film on rigid foam insulation

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Old 10-24-15, 08:01 PM
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Film on rigid foam insulation

The thin plastic film on rigid foam insulation, is this meant to be removed before installation?

Yesterday I began using PL Premium to glue Dow rigid foam to my basement walls. The foam is still braced in place with lumber. There was a large amount of the PL Premium on a scrap piece of foam. This morning I easily removed the adhesive from the foam, it did not adhere at all. I was wondering if this was from due to the plastic film being in place. I'll be disappointed if the foam falls off the walls before I get the walls framed. Thanks
 
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Old 10-24-15, 08:37 PM
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@psu "I'll be disappointed if the foam falls off the walls before I get the walls framed." LOL, what a pain to discover at this point.

I have never heard of having to peel off a film, but I do know some rigid foam boards are covered with it. As for the PL Premium, I just happen to have a tube of 3X on the table next to me. Unfortunately I'm not up on my "polys".
Uses a polyurethane formula but not recommended for:
polystyrene
polyethylene
polypropylene.

I can't say why, but I would, and will be, testing other adhesives. I'm ready to install Dow TuffR with a foil surface glued against the wall.

Had the PL Premium hardened completely?

Bud
 
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Old 10-24-15, 08:47 PM
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This from Owens Corning product information

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Old 10-25-15, 04:51 AM
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Bud - yes, the PL had hardened completely. I'm planning on removing the bracing today....yikes. This was my first trial with the PL Premium...I quickly learned the need to make sure the tubes are warm.

PJ - thanks for the post, that's exactly what I needed. The product I have had the film on both sides, however.
 
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Old 10-25-15, 10:33 AM
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Let me know what you select if you have more to install. My foil film is probably as bad as your plastic and I did see some caulks that don't like concrete. But the reading sure looked like construction adhesive was a good choice and I thought that is what PL Premium was.

Bud
 
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Old 10-25-15, 11:44 AM
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Bud and PSUstang, when I managed a large drywall concern, we had jobs laminating drywall to masonry substrates. The company most of our adhesives came from was OSI. They made a product generically known as "modified contact adhesive". This product was suitable for use on foam as well.

I took a quick look at their site and it appears the product now is "QB 300". It is applied, the surfaces brought together, then separated for a few minutes before being re-joined and lightly braced.

There are probably other companies that make a similar product. If you try a commercial drywall supply yard you will probably get some good leads on an appropriate version of this material.
 
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Old 10-25-15, 11:54 AM
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PL300 is a foam adhesive that's commonly available in box stores. The adhesive needs to be latex based as some solvent based sealants will dissolve the foam before they cure. (doesn't lend to good adhesion) :-)

Thing I don't like about PL Premium (besides being overpriced) is how it oozes out of the tube after you set it down. Also doesn't come off your hands very well.

Hope you are using large "dots" of sealant here and there, and not stripes.
 
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Old 10-26-15, 06:07 AM
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Well, only one of the 5 sheets of rigid foam came unglued. It just happened to be the last sheet that was installed around 11pm, so perhaps my glue pattern wasn't the greatest or we didn't press/roll it against the wall long enough. I should note that the PL stuck to the Thoroseal-coated concrete block wall like a champ, would be very tough to remove.

We installed another 3 sheets last night with PL Premium that had been sitting in front of a space heater for 30mins. The adhesive flowed well and I made sure to use large, staggered dots of the the PL. The three sheets seemed to adhere well. I will remove the bracing tonight.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 06:29 AM
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Do NOT use PL Premium on rigid foam insulation! Over two days I glued and braced 10 sheets of Dow foam board and every board came off the wall. The PL stuck to the wall very well, but not to the foam.

So, I went back and screwed the top of each sheet of foam to the ledger board with cabinet screws (wide head). I taped the seams and over the screws with Dow construction tape. I'm going to rely solely on the framing to hold the foam board tight to the walls. Anywhere there is a gap between the framing and foam I plan to shim tight.

A lot of time and money wasted, but lesson learned.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 10:34 AM
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Technically, it is more the film than the foam, correct? Mine has an aluminum covering so I will be testing before installing. Another recent thread resorted to a few screws right into the concrete.

About 5 years ago I installed a couple of 2x8 sheets of one inch pink stuff and it would have to be ripped down. Unfortunately, I don't remember what I used for the adhesive.

I will try to post what works on the AL foil.

Bud
 
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Old 10-27-15, 12:36 PM
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Several years ago I started a project that would have me glue drywall to 2-inch thick, Johns-Manville foil-faced polyisocyanurate insulation. I made a test using a piece of scrap insulation, two pieces of scrap drywall and some DAP "Beats the Nails" construction adhesive. I just checked that test piece and I defy anyone to break the bond without totally destroying either the insulation or the drywall.
 
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Old 11-02-15, 12:15 PM
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Does anyone know if the Dow "plastic film facers" on the Styrofoam rigid foam board are vapor-semipermeable? I read that these facers may not allow the moisture to dry to the inside.

This faced Dow product (blue) was approx $4 cheaper per sheet vs the Owens Corning (pink) unfaced insulation...starting to think I should have spent the extra money on the unfaced sheets.
 
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Old 11-02-15, 01:21 PM
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No and yes, and it is confusing. Either way you are probably fine. My understanding is, if it has a plastic film it will have near zero permeability. Dow's specifications would be the final source. But, even if it had some perm, it would be very slow.

Now, for the exception. Thermax is a double foil faced polyiso so zero perms. BUT, it solves the interior exposure concerns as it is rated to be used without a flame and thermal barrier. So, why all of a sudden after we have been telling home owners that they need to allow the walls to dry to the inside do they suddenly say, ah, I guess it is all right.

Their excuse is, the concrete certainly doesn't care. But my concerns would be anything else that was there before being covered, dust dirt, adhesive, are any of those going to provide food for mold? Unknown. Thus I still like to allow a small amount of drying to the inside, but according to the experts, it isn't necessary.

Whatever happens behind the rigid stays behind the rigid, after all the ground outside certainly has food for mold, so basically we are surrounded with it anyway.

With luck I could find that reference if you insist .

Bud
 
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Old 11-03-15, 08:27 AM
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Thanks Bud. My fingers are crossed...
 
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Old 11-03-15, 07:31 PM
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I posed the question to Dow:

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Old 11-03-15, 08:05 PM
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If we divide the 0.3 by 2 because we have doubled the thickness then you still have a permeance of 0.15, which, according to the link below, edges into the class II vapor retarder category. But it isn't zero, which is good.
Vapor Barriers or Vapor Diffusion Retarders | Department of Energy

Bud
 
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