Basement Finishing Double Top Plate

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  #1  
Old 01-13-17, 09:53 PM
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Basement Finishing Double Top Plate

I live in Minnesota so need to follow code for here.

Code does not require a double top plate on non load bearing walls. My basement does have sheetrock installed in ceiling already for code and fire block. I want to frame and leave that there so I don't need to do another fire block.

My wall height with the drywall there is 8'4" so I have 8' studs, if I do a double top plate I need to cut every stud down 1/2 inch. if I don't do a double top plate, I need to streach the board by 1"...

So how do I install a double top plate. a 3" nail won't go through both plates, AND the floor joists above... do I nail one plate in, then just nail the 2nd plate to that first plate??

Sorry, I am very new to this. this will be my first framing project ever. So please don't start out with "you should hire a pro" I do want to learn, and I do want to do it myself. I get a lot of satisfaction out of it...
 
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  #2  
Old 01-14-17, 01:10 AM
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Yes, just nail the two plates separately.
 
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Old 01-14-17, 03:31 AM
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This is a DIY forum, and we are the pros you hired, so we are glad to help you get things done right and efficiently. I agree with Brian that nailing or screwing the plates in independently with 3" fasteners is your only choice. If you find yourself running parallel to the floor joists above and not being able to attach the plates to anything but air, just install nailers between the joists at 16 or 24" intervals to provide a substantial nailing point.
 
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Old 01-14-17, 02:12 PM
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Thanks! I thought about hiring a pro but enjoy this type if work. Also don't even know how to fund one or what they would charge. But I got all my wood for $550. I assume I'll need to get more as I discover things I forgot, but not a bad start. If I run out of time what do the pros charge, and how long to frame a 1400 sq ft basement aprox?
 
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Old 01-14-17, 02:44 PM
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You'll only run out of time when you run out of heart beats. I would say hiring a professional would set you back to a point where you will be wanting more but couldn't afford it. Not sure what the Minnesota framers would charge as it would be a totally local thing. 1400 sf is a large basement with sub walls, etc. So it will be expensive. Do it yourself and save a bundle. We are here and we can help you with whatever you need.
 
  #6  
Old 01-14-17, 05:43 PM
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Thanks! Oh, in my bathroom I have this pipe thing. It's 18.5" wide. It's for the bath tub. How do I frame around it? Won't fit in a 16" section...Name:  20170114_193836.jpg
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Old 01-14-17, 05:51 PM
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You would probably cut it in 3 places and remove a large section of the pipes, mark where the holes need to be in your bottom plate, drill the holes, then drop the bottom plate over the 2 pipes you cut on bottom. Once the bottom plate is secured... Repair the 2 lower pipes with a coupling.

Drop another one parallel to that over the single pipe above that you cut. It will be between 2 continuous studs, so that board only needs to be what... a maximum of 30 1/2" long? Everything above that board can still be 16" on center. Then the 3rd cut on the single pipe up above can be repaired with a shielded fernco repair coupling.

In the void between pipes, you can notch a short piece of stud around it, (cut a long U in it) which will then be nailed to your bottom plate (also at 16" on center) and to your horizontal 30 1/2" piece .

Depending on the size and squareness of the plumbing layout, you might have to make that plate and wall out of 2x6. Because you want your walls in the bathroom to be square, so your bottom plates all need to be perfectly parallel or perpendicular with each other, corners need to be square, etc.
 

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  #8  
Old 01-14-17, 06:12 PM
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What are those pipes for? It's where the bathtub goes...
 
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Old 01-14-17, 06:21 PM
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There should be a 12" x 12" approx square hole in the floor with a pipe sticking out of it and gravel around it. That is the tub/shower pipe. The large one in the background is the toilet and the center of it should be 12 1/2" from your finished wall. The two pipes you see here are stubs for your vanity sink and vent. They will be cut and modified once you decide where your wall will go and where the vanity will be. Usually a 2x6 wall, as Brant mentioned, will be used for the plumbing wall so you can make all the pipes fit well. Let us know if you find the square hole in the floor.
 
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Old 01-14-17, 08:06 PM
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Here is what the bathroom area looks like. Sorry won't let me flip. It is uplodding upside down...

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  #11  
Old 01-15-17, 04:22 AM
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Great!! Don't worry with the "h" shaped pipes as they are vents. You have the toilet defined and the one running laterally along the wall (short) is for your sink, and you see the black plastic cover for the tub/shower. Just cut the plastic and remove the dome. You will see a capped stub and gravel. Just build your plumbing wall along the "h", enclosing those pipes. The tub/shower stub should be either 16 or 18 inches from your stud wall once you put it in.
 
  #12  
Old 01-16-17, 06:58 AM
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With that goofy H pipe thing. When I measure, it looks like it sits right behind where I would frame. So I would actually frame in front of that pipe, not through it... (I will measure from drain center 15" to be sure). But if that is the case, would I need to frame 2x6 because technically its a plumbing wall, or since its behind, can I do standard 2x4?
 
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Old 01-16-17, 07:11 AM
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The tub/shower stub should be either 16 or 18 inches from your stud wall once you put it in.
Besides your measurements being off, if you are ever going to finish the room behind the bathroom, you want it IN the wall. That's why it is beyond the corner of the foundation... if you ever frame up a wall along the foundation (in your pic - its what's not seen around the corner) that wall would continue straight across the base of those pipes. You would probably snap a long chalk line on the floor to represent where that wall around the corner would be (even if you aren't building it now) so that the 2 walls will be in the same plane later.
 
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Old 01-16-17, 07:42 AM
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Sorry, I'm trying to follow. So I can 2x4 from in front of the pipes, but want to make sure I have enough room to frame a wall behind it too incase I ever finish that area? That area behind is actually where the sump pump, and main water valve is, so Not sure it'll ever be finished, but I agree with planning for unknown futures. So am i right in saying I can frame 2x4 in front for now, but make sure there is enough room for a 2nd 2x4 wall on the back side?

Sorry, I'm very new to this, and want to make sure I do it correctly. and most importantly to code.
 
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Old 01-16-17, 08:35 AM
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So am i right in saying I can frame 2x4 in front for now
No. See post #7. Your plate will not be in front of the pipes.

Lets start with the basics.

Before you start to frame walls, you snap lines on the floor with a chalk line to represent where your bottom plates will be anchored. So generally, you would snap one great big long line along your longest concrete block wall... 4" away from the wall, which should give you about 1/2" of room behind the 2x4 plate to allow for variations in the cement block wall surface. So your first chalk line would probably be behind the toilet and sink... and if this is the first thing you are framing in the basement, that chalk line would be as long as that cement block wall is. (since all other walls should eventually be framed based off that SAME line).

Next, you would snap the line that will surround your "h". This line needs to be perpendicular to the first line, and should also be roughly 4" away from the concrete block wall that is around the corner. (however its more important that it be perfectly perpendicular to- i.e. square with- the first line... so keep reading.)

Then as Larry mentioned, the drain inside your tub box should be 16-18" away from the interior side of the wall framing.

When you snap the chalk lines on the floor, you ensure that every room you frame has walls that are parallel and you can double check that things are square by using the 3:4:5 method of triangulation. (where 5 represents the hypotenuse of a right triangle) That ratio works for any measurement that keeps that ratio... 6:8:10, 9:12:15, 12:16:20, etc.

So the best method is to snap your longest line first. (which I mentioned earlier) Then, determine where your perpendicular line will start... it will be 4" away from that wall that is around the corner... but where should the ends of that line be when extended out in each direction? That's what the 3:4:5 method of squaring helps you determine. Based on the line you already snapped (one side of a right triangle) you determine where the other corners of that triangle should be... and use those points to snap your perpendicular line.

They should be based on the largest 3:4:5 ratio you can use within the space available. Those are your "Control Lines". Then base all other measurements off THOSE lines so that everything is parallel and perpendicular and square.

Sounds complicated but it is just harder to explain than it is to do.

So here is an example of what I mean. In the illustration, the blue lines are chalk lines. The black line is your wall. Your pipes are circles. And your "control lines" would be your first 2 lines that are 4" away from the foundation walls.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps9wwl2bmt.png
 
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Old 01-16-17, 08:52 AM
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The center of your toilet drain pipe should also be no closer than 12" from the wall framing behind it... and no closer than 15" to any side obstructions (wall or tub).

http://image.homeclick.com/article-e...b301205699.jpg

These are all things the plumber should have placed correctly... but you need to double check it all before you start framing.

If your toilet drain is closer than 12" to center, it limits the kind of toilet you can install.
 
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Old 01-16-17, 09:25 AM
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That helps a lot. So frame the wall in the storage area for the one bathroom wall. I'm thinking 2x6 to be safe. I may notch out the area of the pipes and go from there, then use one of those metal thingies that keep the drywall screws from going through...
 
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Old 01-16-17, 09:36 AM
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Once you do your chalk line layout, you will be able to determine if 2x4 or 2x6 will work best, depending on where the lines fall... and the distance to the center of your tub box. You don't have to frame that whole wall clear back into the corner of your storage area... but you do want to snap the line so that everything will line up if you ever do decide to frame it.
 
  #19  
Old 01-16-17, 12:17 PM
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Sounds good. OH, I did cut open the cover to the tub drain. there isn't a pipe in there, only rock... Does that make sense?
 
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Old 01-16-17, 12:19 PM
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Dig out the rock, you will likely find the stub end of the drain.
 
  #21  
Old 01-17-17, 09:29 PM
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I found the pipe... if I measure 16" that would put the face of the wall behind the pipes... im going to grab some straight edge things to be sure, but that is how it seems...
 
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Old 01-18-17, 03:00 AM
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Find a good straight 2x4, lay it on edge across the two pipes. That will approximate the edge of the 2x6 plumbing wall. From that point see what the measurement is. You have some degree of adjustment in the well. Figure how much offset there is and let us know.
 
  #23  
Old 01-19-17, 06:30 AM
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I will attach some pictures.

Tub to Wall:
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Brick on left wall (sink wall) to sink
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Brick on left wall by sink to Tub H Pipe
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Sink pipe from back wall:
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Inside tub drain hole box thing.
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  #24  
Old 01-19-17, 06:35 AM
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In the tub to wall pic. the side of the wood the tape measure is ligned up with would be the INSIDE edge of a wall IF I frame in front of the pipes. the other side of the wood is touching the H pipes.
 
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Old 01-19-17, 02:05 PM
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OK, with the tub box centerline being approximately 12" from the edge of the pipes, you will probably have to redesign the bathroom to where that box is the "head" of the tub and locate your walls 16 to 18 inches from the side, so your tub can be centered. Our initial thinking was it was in the opposite juxtaposition but with that measurement it isn't.

The sink drain is fine since the wall will encompass the piping.
 
  #26  
Old 01-19-17, 02:30 PM
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Sorry Chandler, I"m trying to follow. so I would need to break open the concrete and move that pipe, or I would need to somehow move the H pipe to the right? Either way sounds scary. lol
 
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Old 01-19-17, 02:39 PM
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No, just turn the tub sideways from what we originally thought it would be. We were thinking it would run parallel to the wall created across the "h" pipes, but it won't. It must be run perpendicular to the wall created across the "h" pipes.

Brant's drawing was almost professional, so don't laugh at mine.

Name:  tub.jpg
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  #28  
Old 01-19-17, 02:51 PM
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OH my, I didn't even think about turning the tub. I'll need to think of somethign creative to put next to the toilet because there will be a huge gap there, but maybe a closet or something...

So then can I frame that wall with 2x4 studs in front of the H pipe then, or do I truely need 2x6?
 
  #29  
Old 01-19-17, 03:10 PM
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Larry, if he would put the plate around the pipes like I've been telling him, it would be 15 1/2" to center... right?

Oh, but that puts it too close to the toilet doesnt it. Yeah turn the tub.
 
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Old 01-19-17, 03:16 PM
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You are dead set on framing on one side of those pipes, so let's do it Brant has shown and instructed the proper manner in which to handle the pipes by putting a 2x6 wall around the pipes. Rock and roll.

Edit: Yeah, Brant, I was thinking of that closure as well. The house I grew up in, you could sit on the toilet, wash your hands and soak your feet in the tub all at the same time. I think it was probably 9 square feet at most.
 
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Old 01-19-17, 05:42 PM
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Sorry, I know he said how to do it. I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Never done this before, so what seems basic to you all I think take me longer for me to grasp. I'm slow. I'm going to re read when down there and see.
 
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