Which radiator to use


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Old 08-05-04, 07:01 PM
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Which radiator to use

Hello, I live in a 55 year old home with a hot water boiler system. I am renovating the basement and was interested in purchaseing the baseboard type rads or the European type that bolt to the wall. Now my question is are they better or should I look for the old cast iron types. Which are more efficient. The baseboards I was thinking would give a more modern look or would be hidden behind furnature.

I have a few more questions so I hope that everyone doesn't mind.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Old 08-06-04, 04:55 PM
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I don't think efficiency will come into play here. Cost may be a factor though. Just make sure you match the heating load requirement with the correct size radiator of whatever type you choose.

Ask any questions you want, we have all the time in the world (collectively).

Ken
 
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Old 08-07-04, 08:20 PM
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Thanks Ken, Is there a formula on how to figure out the balanced load? How do I I know how long to get the baseboards (sold by foot) And I was thinking for ease to maintane the 1997 basement rad install pipe branches, but to extend them so as the rads would be on the outside walls.

I replaced my Oil burner boiler BIGGEST mistake I made. There were no rads in the basement when it was in. I had a slant fin boiler installed and 4 rads installed in the basement so as to heat the basement. The rad furthest from the boiler always had an air lock that I had a very hard time to get rid of. I figured out that I needed a bleed valve at the elbow before the pipe went down to the rad. Also all the pipes that were laid were to low hence I have lost more hair than I will care to say. So as its summer, next project is to raise all the pipes including the original ones from 55 years ago. I am keeping in mind that I need to maintain the slope that is there and feel that it can be done (fore the sake of my noggin)

If I am missing something any input is welcomed.
 
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Old 08-08-04, 06:35 PM
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If it is a steam system, the pitch on the pipes would be necessary, but if it is a hot water system, there is no requirement for the pipes to be pitched at all. You do need good air elimination on any system but loops below the main require special planning.

Ken
 
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Old 08-11-04, 05:59 AM
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Hello Ken,

By below the main I assume you mean the main lines? Now I have no idea about what you mean by special planning other then I need to ensure that there should be good bleed mechanism for each rad.

Since my boiler is a Slantfin I went to their sight and they had a heatloss calculation software. After inputing all I needed, I came up with this.

Base board rads required:

Base board rads used: fineline 15 output 600btu

room 1: 20X12 rad is 9.5ft
room 2: 26X17 rad is 18 ft
room 3: 5X6 rad is 2 ft

I have a choice of 1/2" or 3/4 pipe.

Total heatloss for basement was 15,787btu/hr

As a side note I was reading the other day that you can slow or stop the water from flowing if the mains went to a smaller pipe to quickly. I my case they go from 2 1/2" to 3/4" that is where the other 2 rads are that I am having problems with heating up. Now I am assuming that this only applies to a gravity system and not a system with a circulating pump.

Cheers, Mark
 
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Old 08-11-04, 02:58 PM
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I would suggest staying with 3/4" pipe. It will keep you safer in not exceeding the capacity of the circulating pump. Purging the basement loop would also prevent trapped air but you need to be sure no more air can leave the boiler or it may be a recurring problem. A deaerator like the spirovent will keep all the air out of every radiator. Also, if your mains are 2 1/2", you can reduce them to 1 1/4" if your system originally was a gravity system. If you want to raise them up to make more headroom the smaller diameter is helpful. It also reduces the water capacity of the system and that helps overall efficiency a little.

Ken
 
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Old 08-11-04, 06:03 PM
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Sorry I realised that when I said I have a choice of 1/2" or 3/4" pipe it should have stated "element" for the baseboard. I will try and get some pictures and a schematic together to post.

Thanks again for all your help!!!
 
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Old 08-12-04, 05:08 AM
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You should probably stick with 3/4" element too. And it looked like the btu outputs you gave were for very hot water. You would be better to use the numbers for water at 180 degrees F. It may require a few more feet of baseboard, but you will get the output you need at a realistic water temp.

Ken
 
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Old 08-15-04, 02:44 PM
Homer Simpson
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Baseboard

Mark,

Use a 3/4" baseboard mounted on and exterior wall where posible controlled
by a zone valve and thermostat.

The pressure loss on 1/2" element is greater than a 3/4" element. Use 3/4'
copper pipe to make the connections to the boiler manifold. Put the zone valve on the return line.

The heat calcs for the basement need to take into consideration the fact that
you have the biggest heat sink, there is, just outside of the walls, Mother Earth. Ground, aside from permafrost, doesn't get much colder than 38 degs.
So, 15K BTU/H loss may be high depending how much of the basement is above ground. But the thermostat would control it, turning it off when the
temp in the rooms reached set point.

Thin tube baseboard has a faster response time than a cast iron radiator and
is better suited to your situation.

You have to take the heat loss for each room and size the baseboard accordingly.

I calculate baseboard at 450 BTU/H per foot. Baseboards are run in series.
the first gets the hottest water and subsequently cooler water down the line.
If the boiler supply temp is 180 degs, the measured temp at the baseboard is
160--165 degs.

If you fir the exterior wall out and add 1/2" R-max or Celotex urathane foam
insulation, you could cut the heat loss significantly.

I always put baseboard tees on the out line of my elements with a manual
or automatic baseboard vent. The tee is 3/4'X1/8"x3/4". Should only add
$5 to the cost of each baseboard. Trapped air will stop any flow through
the baseboard.

Is your boiler pump going to be able to handle the added load? Remenber in
an unbalanced system (heating circuits of varing lengths without balancing valves) the longest run gets the least water flow and the least heat.

As for 2 1/2" lines, without knowing your piping arrangement, it is difficult to
say anything. However, going to 1 1/4" would be beneficial. The 2 1/2"
lines are probably steel and should be replaced anyway, with copper type M.
Say goobye, Homer. Goodbye
 
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Old 08-17-04, 07:11 PM
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Ok where to start...

I have made a drawing of the proposed basement plumbing. and scanned it as a jpeg picture but am unable to put it on this site.

As I am not a heating expert I require a little help. I still can't get a handle on the zone valve. Is this an electronic valve that is operated by placing another thermostat in the basement that doesn't operate the furnace but just that valve, cutting off its water supply?

And yes the biggie "balancing" If I understand that one if a system is balanced all the rads will be warm, if unbalanced some may be boiling hot and others cold. That brings me to what is a balance valve, where does it go and what does it look like?Can I do a modification to the upstairs cast iron rads to get more heat to the 2 rads in the back rooms?

As for the pipes they are steel. I thought that placing copper piping was a no no since the heat loss was greater due to copper being a good conductor.

The basement feed from the boiler is I think 1 inch mains then 3/4" to old rads. ( which were all installed on the inside walls...even I new that was wrong )

The final question form your post is that base boards are run in series. all of them or just the run that you are placing in each room and why do it that way.

Boy this is a loaded post!!! I am sorry

But a very thankful.

Cheers,

Mark
 
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Old 08-19-04, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Exile
Ok where to start...


And yes the biggie "balancing" If I understand that one if a system is balanced all the rads will be warm, if unbalanced some may be boiling hot and others cold. That brings me to what is a balance valve, where does it go and what does it look like?Can I do a modification to the upstairs cast iron rads to get more heat to the 2 rads in the back rooms?



Mark

Ok I am comfortable with balancing now and the valves( many different types out there)
 
 

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