Adding a new zone on new 2nd floor

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Old 08-17-04, 04:16 AM
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Adding a new zone on new 2nd floor

I hope this is the right place for this question.

I have a split entrance ranch that we added a 2nd floor with a Gambrel front.
I am just about ready to have the insulators and dry wall people come in.
Just want to know about the plumbing for heat.
Should I have the pipes already up to the 2nd floor? 1" size copper pipe? Can & should I use PEX for the forced hot water?
I used 3/4" copper for the in coming water and that and the waste plumbing is all done.
Thanks in advance
 
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Old 08-18-04, 08:03 PM
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Before you close up the floor (unless you have the first floor ceiling open) you need to get your heating pipes roughed in. They will probably all be 3/4" unless there is more than 1000 sq. ft. of living space up there. If you don't get pipes there now, you won't be able to get them there later. That could mean trouble.

Ken
 
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Old 10-13-04, 08:17 AM
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Now I am ready to do this job.
the floor is 44' x 24'. Two bedrooms 15.5' x 11' , One bedroom 15' x 24' , a bathroom 10' x 12' and a T shaped hallway.
One plumber said to loop back over the heating element for each room?
My orignal floor heating was a loop around the perimeter of the house with the return coming from the middle of the loop.
Is one way better then the other?
 
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Old 10-18-04, 05:31 AM
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Zone Valves?

Hi again,
I was doing the calculations for heat loss, and then I started to map out the routing of the pipes and baseboard and was reading about zone valves.
Right now I have two zones, basement and 1st floor with each having their own circulator. I plan to have a third zone in the 2nd floor and also going to add a hot water Stor Tank. So that is 4 zones.
I figured I need four circulators or do I? Each floor is 44' x 24'
Any suggestions
 
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Old 10-18-04, 05:42 AM
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You could use one of the circulators you already have and add the rest of the zone valves to it. It makes a simpler arrangement and is easier to build. You would need 3 zone valves for that.

Ken
 
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Old 10-18-04, 06:58 AM
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Hi,
Thanks for the reply.
Would I use one circulator for the Hotwater Stor and One for the other 3 zone valves?
 
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Old 10-18-04, 07:09 AM
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That would be a good way of splitting things up.

Ken
 
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Old 10-18-04, 09:55 AM
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Ok, Thanks.
One last question:
I have the small circulators. Is that fine?
 
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Old 10-18-04, 10:52 AM
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Based on the information you gave on your house, any on eof the common direct drive circulators would be just fine. Like the Taco 007 or its equivalent.
Good luck with the project and post back if you need more info.

Ken
 
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Old 10-18-04, 01:39 PM
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Thanks again.
Yes I have two of the Taco 007.
I know I will have more questions.
Thanks
 
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Old 10-19-04, 03:22 AM
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Sorry for all the questions, but when I set my mind to do something I like to understand why things are done.
So with that said could you answer me this:

What is the benefit behind using zone valves vs circulators? Beside the savings in from using less electricity with the zone valves. The price of a circulator is $65-$75 and the zone valves are $85-$125. Granted these prices are only ones that I have seen on the internet and at Home Depot.
 
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Old 10-19-04, 05:02 AM
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Each circulator zone also requires a flow check and a relay to operate it from the thermostat.

Ken
 
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Old 10-19-04, 05:13 AM
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Now I need to see some wiring diagrams. I understand the flow check for the circulator, but the no relay for zone valves? So The thermostat controls the zone valve open or close, what about the circulator turning on for the zone valve? How if you don't mind explaining or point me to a web site that shows me.
Thanks again.
-quadcells
 
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Old 10-19-04, 05:22 AM
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The zone valves have a switch to trigger the circulator. The thermostats control the zone valves and the end switch in the zone valve controls the circulator. All the zone valve end switches get wired in parallel so that any one can start the pump, just like your one zone thermostat does now. The circulator runs when any or all the zone valves are open and the flow goes to whichever ones are open. You would probably add one 40va transformer to power all the zone valves. I don't know of a web site that has diagramsfor this.

Ken
 
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Old 10-19-04, 05:45 AM
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That 's great. I understand everything now.
One other question:
My darling wife has a question about the zone valves:
Can I put a thermostat in each bedroom and have a zone valve for each?
I would guess the answer is yes, but would require more plumbing.
Then that brings us to the question of where the zone valves go?
Do they go close to the boiler or up in the 2nd floor.
Again I really appreciate you time.
-quadcells
 
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Old 10-19-04, 05:58 AM
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The best place is usually close to the boiler. If you had a common run of pipe to a distant location that could serve several zones, then you may want the zone valves there. I think if you could keep them all near the boiler and join the returns together out near the ends of the zones, you could possibly save some pipe there. You will appreciate the comfort afforded by smaller zones. Especially when you group the zones by their use. Like bathrooms, bedrooms, kitchen, and living rooms. Each room has a different use and usually I see a bathroom on with a bedroom. That is just about the worst grouping there is.

Ken
 
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Old 10-20-04, 04:26 AM
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Question

KField & anyone else who would like to offer thier opion on this.

This is what I would like to do, please let me know if this ok to do this way and if not what should I do.

The boiler is in the basement,
I would run two large (1"?, bigger?) copper lines from the boiler to the 2nd floor. About 20’ in length and about 12’ is vertical.

On the 2nd floor add a two manifolds one for the return and one for feed.
Add four zone valves to the feed or the return manifold?
Three zone valves, one for each of the bedrooms.
The fourth zone valve for the bathroom & hallway (hallway has the stairs coming from the first and basement floors).
Can I do this?
Where I plan to put the zone valves in the 2nd level floor I have easy access from the store room below on the first floor.

Thanks
-quadcells
 
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Old 10-20-04, 05:14 AM
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Your idea is not bad. You will need to get 24 volt power and all thermostat wires to the area also and a 2 conductor wire back down to the boiler. 1" pipe is adequate for supply and return. Don't forget a means to vent air from each loop. An automatic air vent on the return pipe before it goes back down would work nicely. I would suggest that after the air is out, close the cap on the vent. If pressure ever drops, that vent will admit air to the system and cause problems. You will also need a bleeder on each piece of baseboard. It would probably be too messy to purge air from the manifold location. Put the zone valves in the supply.
Ken
 
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Old 10-20-04, 06:11 AM
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Ken,
Thanks.
Wires not a problem.
24 volt supply not a problem.

You mention an air vent (like the ones that are on the system now?) Four of them?
Also bleeders? If I have air vents why do I need bleeders? To drain water from the system?

Thanks again. I think I am almost ready to start this job.
 
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Old 10-20-04, 11:18 AM
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If you don't have a vent at the high points, you can not get circulation at all and won't get heat. So, even though you will have an auto vent on the return, it will only take small amounts of air out during the run cycle. Manual key vents on the baseboards should be enough to insure circulation.
Ken
 
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Old 10-21-04, 04:33 AM
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Thanks again Ken.
I used the software from SlantFin to calculate the amount of baseboard I would need in each room and was surprised on how little baseboard is required. Example: 15' x 11' room need only 6.5' of baseboard, WOW that isn't much.
Anyhow my question for the moment is: Where should the baseboard go in the room? I keep reading that under windows and outside walls is where they should go.
Ture?
Why?
I'm getting closer. Thanks
GO RED SOX!!!
 
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Old 10-21-04, 05:25 AM
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The outside walls are where the cold starts coming in so that's where the heat can do the most good. It comes out of the baseboard and heads for the ceiling so if you put it across the room from the window, it will be dropping down that outside wall as it cools off instead of rising up the wall after offsetting the cold air from the window. It is just a comfort thing, not gospel.

Your baseboard length sounds reasonable. I know contractors who don't know any better than to cover all outside walls with baseboard. Women hate to have a whole wall covered by it and it is a waste of money. And it is never just the right amount, it makes it very uncomfortable between rooms. Do it right and you will only have to do it once.

Ken
 
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Old 10-22-04, 07:18 AM
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Hi again,
Like to go out this weekend and buy the supplies I will need.
So 1" copper pipe is ok to supply for zones? (I know Ken said that 1"
Is fine, just making sure.)

The bleeders or manual key vents? I was at Home depot and I saw these brass 90 degree elbows that have a threaded cap at the bend of the pipe so to bleed of air. Just want to be sure they can handle the heat of the water or is their different one. I found the auto vents with the 1/8" thread which will go on all return lines or just one on the return manifold?
I am really sorry for all the questions, just want to do it right the first time.
Thanks again.
-quadcells
 
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Old 10-22-04, 10:24 AM
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You can wait and maybe someone else will add their 2 cents on the pipe size, but I can assure you that 1" is adequate for around 100,000 btu carrying capacity.

I would suggest getting what is called a bleeder tee (3/4" X 1/8" X 3/4" Copper/female/copper) It looks like a 3/4" copper 90 degree elbow with a 1/8" female pipe thread on the top. Then you can install manual key vents. They will work better and last longer than those capped things on the elbows.

Ken
 
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Old 10-25-04, 03:25 AM
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ready to start

Ken,
Thanks again.
I went out and bought all the baseboards, copper pipe 3/4 and 1", key-vents, auto vent for the return manifold, zone valves, 24v transformer and bleeder tee's (3/4" X 1/8" X 3/4" Copper/female/copper).

Hope to start this week-weekend coming, I'll take some pictures and post them.
Thanks again for your help.
-quadcells
 
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Old 12-06-04, 03:39 AM
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Update

Ken & Others,
I just wanted to give an update on my project.
With a lot of talking to other plumbers I decided to go with home runs for each bedroom on the 2nd floor. I will have all the zone valves at the boiler not in the 2nd floor. I ran 3/4 Pex plastic Hydronic pipe for all the runs, made my life easier then with copper. All the crimps have been done and I am doing the valves now, (looking for some kind of manifold that I saw on a friends system, it looks neat). It's funny on my system and other old ones I look at the circulators are on the return side, and the new systems have them on the supply side of the boiler. I would guess that the supply side is the way to go, why did it change?
So I am getting the job done, hope to be done in a week or so.
I still taking some pictures of the job. I will post them on my web site when I am done.
Thanks again for your help.

-bill (quadcells)
 
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Old 12-06-04, 05:15 AM
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Circulators work better on the supply. At one time is was thought that the system was quieter when the circ was on the return. The circulator also has to tolerate less heat on the return but todays circulators don't care too much about that. The biggest reason that nothing has changed is that most manufacturers can't figure out how to crate their boilers with the circulator on the supply. I have heard that from many reps and is is a shame. I don't use packaged boilers so I have been piping the circulators on the supply for 10+ years and it works much better. From air elimination to circulation, it is better. Also, you mentioned putting your air vwnt on the return. That is not such a good idea. It really should be on the supply manifold.

Ken
 
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Old 12-06-04, 05:54 AM
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Hi,
Yes I was going to put the vent on the return, haven't yet because I was looking for that manifold. So I will put it on the supply side and yes I did see it on my friends system on the supply side as well.
Thanks again for your helpful suggestions
-bill
 
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Old 12-15-04, 04:52 AM
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Hello Again,
One more question, do I need to put ball valves on each zone at both ends?
And do I use the blue handle valves?
Thanks again, I got side tracked to a different job here at the house and since the baseboard heaters are in I was doing painting to get ready for the doors and rugs.
Thanks again for all your help and for putting up with my questions.
 

Last edited by quadcells; 12-17-04 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 01-19-05, 05:15 AM
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4 out 6 zones working?

Hi All,
Finally finished plumbing in my second floor heat in. 4 zones on the 2nd floor with one zone on the 1st and one zone in the basement.
Like Ken said I put key vents at each baseboard heater. That worked great.
Right now the circulator is on the return side, that is the way it was. I am going to put it on the supply side this weekend, didn’t have time during this cold spell.
Ok now two of the zones are not putting out ant heat. I open the key vents to until water came out and then closed them. So there is water going thru but not enough.
If you read my other post, I am using PEX in place of copper. It was easy to pull the plastic pipe then solder all that copper.
So I am wondering if there is air caught somewhere in the line.
The strange thing is that my old heating system has no key vents anywhere and the heat works fine.
Will putting the circulator on the supply side help push out the air?
Or is their something else causing my problem?

Need help quickly…It’s cold out.
Thanks in advance

-bill
 
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Old 01-19-05, 05:34 AM
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The circulator on the supply will help quite a bit. If you have high points that can't be vented, you should have a purge setup to force water through them. If the other part of your house doesn't have bleeders, it must have a purge valve setup. You could duplicate that on the new zone(s).

Ken
 
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Old 01-19-05, 05:48 AM
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Hi Ken,
Could you explain what a purge valve setup is.
Maybe I have this and don't know it.

-bill
 
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Old 01-19-05, 07:32 AM
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I think I am all set, I read the thread "Banging furnace" and Ken- you described thier on what to do. I'll give that a shot when I get home.
Thanks again
-bill
 
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Old 01-19-05, 07:45 PM
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Before I do this should the boiler be cold before I put all that cold water thru it?
 
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Old 01-20-05, 05:15 AM
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No, that's not necessary.

Ken
 
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Old 01-20-05, 05:47 AM
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Thanks,
The reason I ask is that a co-worker said that his plumber told him that you could crack the boiler if you run cold water thu it when the boiler is hot.
Thanks again.
BTW: I didn't get a chance to purge the system last night. Too busy with the kids and since we do have heat on the 2nd floor I put it off until tonight.
What a great message board.
-bill
 
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Old 01-20-05, 03:10 PM
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All Good Now.
That's what it needed, A good purging.
Thanks again.
-bill
 
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