How do i purge air from baseboards with no bleeders??

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  #1  
Old 12-17-04, 05:13 PM
airmdwn
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Question How do i purge air from baseboards with no bleeders??

What is the proper method for bleeding air from hot water systems,, should the system be circulating or off?? I havent tried anything because ive heard different things for my type of system.

The pipes are very noisy with bubbling and gurgling sounds and the constant water faucet sounds in them. Im not sure how to bleed them, so here is how the system is piped now.

There are i believe 2 zones. Out of the boiler the piping goes to a Bell&Gosset Flow control valve-----Then an Air purger/expansion tank----- TEE to separate upstairs and downstairs radiators ----- back to thier respective purge valves then TEE back to another Tee for a manual Freshwater makeup---- valve then to the circulator pump.

There are no bleeds at the radiators, and i am unsure how exaclty the "purge valves" work. The boiler pressure is around 15 psi when the boiler is up to temp. and drops a few psi as it cools.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, and Happy Holidays
 
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  #2  
Old 12-17-04, 05:52 PM
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You will need to purge the air out. Effectively what you will be doing is pushing water all the way around the loop and letting it go out a hose instead of back into the boiler. It would require you to put a hose on the purge drain and isolate the boiler side of that valve. Then open up the drain and if you can, make the water feed valve put water in faster than it will automatically. That usually requires you to lift a lever on the feeder. You should hear the air as it goes out of the hose. The best way is to submerge the end of the hose in a bucket and watch for air bubbles. When no more are there, close the fast feed and close the drain valve. I'm not sure that you have 2 zones. You may have one zone with 2 loops. How many thermostats do you have? In any case, you will need to purge each loop individually.

Ken
 
  #3  
Old 12-17-04, 08:44 PM
airmdwn
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Yes, i only have on T-Stat, but there are 2 loops.

I'm not quite sure how to isolate the loops from the boiler though. Is there any other way to do this because i do not have a shut-off between the purge valves and circulator pump?

My water fill is just a valve it isnt automatic in any may that i see,, is 15lbs the correct pressure for the boiler to work at?

Thanks again and Happy Holidays
 
  #4  
Old 12-18-04, 05:38 AM
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If you could send a picture, I could help better. There must have been a way to purge when the system was installed and it would have required a valve like that somewhere. Are you sure there isn't a valve as part of the purge valve? It may just look like a small lever and not a regular valve. You will need to isolate one loop and purge the other and then switch to the second one and isolate the first.

15 psi is fine and you will have to add water as you take water out if you don't have an auto feed valve. I'm not sure how to help any more than this.

Ken
 
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Old 12-18-04, 06:05 PM
airmdwn
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There is a small handle on each purge valve, however im not sure what they do. they do stop the flow or even seem to slow it down when the main knob is turned.

Id send a picture but im not sure how? I would love to know how to fix this! kinda drivin me nuts!



Happy holidays ,, and thanks again!
 
  #6  
Old 12-19-04, 05:29 AM
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The lever is the valve. Turn it so the lever is perpendicular to the pipe and then open the hose drain. Feed water until there is no more air and then do the other side. Don't let system pressure get to 30psi or the relief valve will open. I think you are just about there.

Ken
 
  #7  
Old 12-20-04, 04:35 PM
airmdwn
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OK,, Ive tried three times now and i still have air somehow?!?

I have now noticed a "tinkle tinkle" sound coming from what seems to be the flow control valve when the circulator pump first starts? what could that be?

I had the valves open for 5 minutes last time and held the pressure at 20 (to be safe) And was certain there was no air comming out and it was quiet in the house when the water was running, but when the furnace fires up it makes the same noises it did. Could the Air Purgere be bad or something?

Im totally unfamiliar with Hot Water Baseboard (pretty obvious) This is my first home with this type of heat so im feeling a little overwhelmed. Help!

Thanks again and Happy Holidays
 
  #8  
Old 12-20-04, 05:00 PM
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I will assume that you purged each loop independently of the other. You didn't say that you did, and it is important to do it, so i thought I'd reinforce that item. There is air in the new water that you bring in when you purge so you will not get all the air out by purging. The small amount that is left usually isn't even perceptible. The air purger you have is rarely installed correctly and only gets the majority of the air when it is. It is important to be sure the vent on top of the purger is working. Do you ever hear it let air out? Can you check it somehow? Like to press the tiny pin in the center of the air valve and see if water comes out. Some brands don't have the little pin but most older ones did.

Ken
 
  #9  
Old 12-20-04, 06:00 PM
airmdwn
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Yes i purged each loop separately twice, then i did each one independently while leaving the opposite valve closed thinking maybe that would help but it didnt.

I havent heard the purge valve let air out, but it seems i can do it manually, there is a pin on the top and i get a little air every time i press it (while the boiler is running) its strange it pings almost and then i can let the air out then its water till it pings again. Is this valve supposed to be automatic?

Thank Ken your being very patient and helpful!
 
  #10  
Old 12-21-04, 06:05 AM
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The air vent is automatic. It has a float in it and the ping may be the float expanding when the air surrounds it. It will always have a small amountof air in it and thats why you get some air out before the water when you manually trip it. It is probably working. How far is the purger from your flow check?
Ken
 
  #11  
Old 12-21-04, 05:46 PM
airmdwn
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The Flow check is on the outlet side of the boiler and the purge valves are on the circulator side, id say not counting whats inside the boiler, about 8 feet of 1 inch pipe.

Out of the boiler the piping goes to a Bell&Gosset Flow control valve-----Then an Air purger/expansion tank----- TEE to separate upstairs and downstairs radiators ----- back to thier respective purge valves then TEE together---- to another Tee for a manual Freshwater makeup valve---- then to the circulator pump into the boiler again.

What does the "Gravity flow" setting on the flow valve mean? Isnt that a one way valve?? Is Gravity flow mean it just allows it to flow both ways? Could that be a problem cause i cant tell where its set really.

Thanks
 
  #12  
Old 12-23-04, 12:20 AM
ignatius73
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Originally Posted by KField
If you could send a picture, I could help better. There must have been a way to purge when the system was installed and it would have required a valve like that somewhere. Are you sure there isn't a valve as part of the purge valve? It may just look like a small lever and not a regular valve. You will need to isolate one loop and purge the other and then switch to the second one and isolate the first.

15 psi is fine and you will have to add water as you take water out if you don't have an auto feed valve. I'm not sure how to help any more than this.

Ken
Background- I removed an unnecessary water softner a week ago and turned off the water to the house in the process. Now my upstairs zone is warm, the main level has very small amount of heat and the basement is cold. I think I need to bleed, couldn't find bleed spots on the radiators, but seem to have the setup you're talking about here.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but this sounds like the issue I'm having (no bleeders on radiators, each with purge valves and small levers underneath them.

I have three zones. If I want to bleed one zone, do I close all 3 of the small levers/valves (turning them so they are perpendicular to the pipes) and then bleed from the purge valve for the zone I intend to bleed, or should one or two of the zones remain open?

Thanks for any help!
 
  #13  
Old 12-23-04, 04:58 AM
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Thew gravity setting on the flow check just allows water to circulate on convection (gravity) it stops the valve from doing what it was designed to do which is stop unwanted circulation. The reason I asked how far the flow check was from the air purger is because the purger is only effective if there is about 2 feet of straight pipe between the purger and any other fitting on the inlet. That could contribute to your constant battle with air.

Ken
 
  #14  
Old 12-23-04, 09:58 AM
ignatius73
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Originally Posted by ignatius73
Background-

I have three zones. If I want to bleed one zone, do I close all 3 of the small levers/valves (turning them so they are perpendicular to the pipes) and then bleed from the purge valve for the zone I intend to bleed, or should one or two of the levers/valves remain open?

Thanks for any help!
What I tried last night seems to have made the problem worse. I closed the small levers below each purge valve and the tried to bleed a zone while raising the lever on the water in to the boiler. Now top lever is luke warm, middle and bottom levels cold.

 
  #15  
Old 12-23-04, 07:32 PM
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The only one that needs to be closed is the one that you are purging. There is no harm in closing the others though. Unless you put more air in than you took out, there isn't any way you could have made it worse.

Ken
 
  #16  
Old 12-24-04, 07:10 AM
airmdwn
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Thanks Ken,, Im not sure exactly what took place,, i have been messing with the air purger and over the last few days it has removed the air and the pipes are now quiet,,,

Its a Christmas Miracle!

Good luck to everyone in the new year.

Thanks to all
 
  #17  
Old 12-25-04, 12:00 AM
ignatius73
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It's too damn cold in Iowa to screw around without heat right before the holidays, so I broke down and called a technician next day. Glad I did as it turned out I needed a new pump. But he started doing exactly what I had tried, so a big thanks to this board and Ken for making me feel less useless in the time I tried to solve it myself. I would have never known the pump was bad, so it worked out best in the end.

When he bled a zone, he closed all then slightly opened the one he was bleeding. Not saying that's the right way, just stating what he did.
 
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