Air trapped near an impeller??


  #1  
Old 01-29-05, 05:20 AM
Jaimes
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Air trapped near an impeller??

Nods to all. Siteís a true godsend.

Have an annoying crackling mini gurgling which seems centered at or near the impeller of one of four zone circulators. Canít be heard on floor above except do hear an unusually heavy bass frequency drone if you stand in the right place. Reverb in pipes maybe. Dunno. Workspace is in room off of basement furnace room (sound did not exist until last service tuneup). Gurgling wonít go away by bleeding at baseboards. Only get a few spurts of air at only one of 6.

Attempted a whole zone bleed at faucet on return line yesterday but chickened out (maybe 2/3rds drained, with town water running very cold) because when replenish valve opened it occurred to me that colder water would be rushing into an a very uncooled (damned hot) cast iron boiler - extractor. Itís been 0-8F in past 72 hours. Furnace has been pulling some duty hours, and woe to shut down for cooling furnace for too long or something goes wrong in these temps.

Canít find a step by step for zone bleeding that ensures I wonít screw up monumentally. No apparent guages in sight which doesnít help confidence level re: any replenishment -/- expansion tank involvement. Otherwise should be good to go, have shut off below and faucet above, but need to know if all zones need to be shut off, whether all bleeders in this zone need to be opened in any specific sequence, and if return line faucet should be opened or closed when I refill the zone by - I assume - open the valve below the impeller. . ------- and --------- whether I can or should briefly spin (quick on/off power switch) the impeller with no load/pressure to speak of ----- to evacuate that approx. 12" section below the faucet and above the impeller.

Or could it be something else making the noise?
Anybody ever run into this?

Probably not ness but here are all the Specs: And thanks very much in advance, in case you can simply pass along the best guideline available for bleeding one of these old systmes. I'm such a coward. J.

1. Mid-Maine inland, Mid-Winter, 8-24F temps.
2. 60ís Moderne 4 level split - all in Brick over concrete foundation.
3. Older National Radiator Corp. Gas or Oil Boiler - 200 series. 40, possibly 50 yrs old. Heats a 3 gal. reservoir /controller /distribution /exchanger unit for hot domestic potable water piped out on back. Age unknown, maybe 7 to 15 yrs old.
Burner not OEM, is a 3 yr old, Riello(tm), Mectron 10M, Front mounted to boiler.
Fuel supplierís annual maintenance preceded new air-noise problem Iím trying to troubleshoot here. Younger service guy on the follow-up call said bleeding zone should eliminate noise. Hasnít.
Chimney got swept Nov. Ď04, modest downdraft noticed only at empty fireplace on floor above, but Furnace Flue appears well adjusted.
Water distribution all copper. 3/4 and 1/2. Air bleeders on 1/4Ē copper at most baseboards.
Another thread for later but: At least 4 Pressure Relief Valves (1 on each of 2 long runs of pipe (btw, 1 began slow drip leak just yesterday, (1gal per 18 hrs)), 2 other PRVs on furnace also on last legs, corrosively frozen possibly. Been too afraid of snapping pins to check, could stay locked open, right?
On 1 of the 2 (T-layout) return lines of this zone and on the mate supply line, they each have an inline, brass colored cylindrical type Check Valve (?) 5ft out from furnace, one of which does rattle annoyingly (albeit not heard from floors above) when small DYI installed turnbuckle on pipe length is loosened. Otherwise quiet. Took forever to find corrective angle which came out to be a lateral pull toward wall.
Maybe IMPORTANT. System has DUAL Tanks at joists just above Furnace. Oneís an expansion tank of course. But is the other one for expansion also, or ????.
4. Systemís Oil fueled.
5. Temps / Pressure: Again. No visable/obvious air nor water pressure nor temp indicators on boiler nor on the 2 replen/??/expansion-tanks. Unless theyíre hidden on top.
6. 4 zones of forced hot water. Fins on copper pipe, baseboards all around.
Zone in question has a T layout, which, canít recall for sure if pros thot was gravity fed. Can post pics and baseboard layouts at my site if ness.
7. Thermostats (4), 3 are older rectangular type with side lever adjustment. 4th one has the more modern round dial adjuster type installed Nov. í04.
 
  #2  
Old 01-29-05, 01:09 PM
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Good information. You for got to mention the make and model of your kitchen sink. Just kidding. The circulator that is causing the problem...What brand and model is it. Some get noisy when they get worn. I have even had a brand new Taco 007 be noisy and need replacement. If it is an old B&G or Taco, it may be the cause. I have never heard of a system with that many relief valves. Whats up with that? I know safety is important but that is like wearing 3 seat belts.

Ken
 
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Old 01-29-05, 05:25 PM
Jaimes
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Model No. and valves clarification

Good thing you asked. Checked, and turns out the tag says Wagner Electric Corp. Housing shape and size look identical to the 2 B&Gs beside it. 4th zone is a smaller B&G.

Anyway. Wagner, Model SY3356K3559.

Correction to specs:
Thought ďgravity fedĒ was a type of layout for a ďforced hot waterĒ system until further reading revealed elsewise. So system is not gravity fed on any of the zones on the basis of reading which said a gravity fed sys won't have circulators.

The deal on the number of relief valves is - ahem - not to assume I know what Iím talking about. ArAr.

Here are pics.
http://www.geocities.com/theexactcha...aceValves1.htm

Anyway, to answer... in the top pic for instance there are two valves. Oneís upright with the pin corroded. Other one to the right of that is a lever type, has a weak return spring but works. The pipe shooting downward from there drops open into a bucket. The upright "??relief??" valve may be cooked altogether.

Second pic shows two valves on respective long runs of pipe. Neither is on the zone in question with regard to this circulator/impeller noise issue.

(Note: Am intending to tackle the corroded valves issues in another thread. Will consider replacing them myself, depending. Valve (closest in photo) began leaking 2 days ago - 1gal/18hrs) Wondering how bleeding very little air off on a diff zone - with nominal gasping/thumping - could have disturbed this valve but, beginning to suspect expansion tank may be full. Feeback appreciated on that if possible. Otherwise will post that prob seperately.

Third photo shows dual ??expansion?? tanks. Afraid to prod the corroded pin until somebody tells me it wonít break off and leak even worse.)( stay tuned...

Just the same, still fuzzy on valve types. Sorry for infering all four were on the boiler. Guessing the lever type are simply called "flow" valves????

Thanks, Ken

Jim
 
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Old 01-29-05, 08:46 PM
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All but one are atomatic air vents. They can leak after venting air. The one with the open pipe pointing to the floor is the relief valve. There certainly does appear to be 2 expansion tanks. There would have to be a lot of water in your system to need both of them but you never know.

Ken
 
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Old 01-31-05, 01:56 AM
Jaimes
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Thanks for confirming valve types, K.
Re: Home Depot should have all these, no?
Re: Our "dual" expansions tanks. House square footage is roughly 4200sq'.

Re: Model/No. of noisy pump. See new pic.
http://www.geocities.com/theexactcha...aceValves1.htm
Guess is Wagner Electric Corp. redistributes or distributed B&G pumps with own label. Could not confirm on Google.
Anyway the Size is 1/6 HP.
Wagner (newest looking) is the noisiest, and could have been a poorly rebuilt one.
What do these cost brand new on average. I saw Taco mentioned all over the place on these threads.
Do you need any exotic tools to pull, replace, or seat a new impeller?
But then also
there's the other noise, the resonance we hear upstairs. From the same Wagner pump. I agree that noise suggests second-rate bearings. Wouldn't we hear a really nasty metalic knashing if a bearing was gone?
Question number 51,595: (kidding)
Does B&G or anybody else have online assembly drawings of these things. Want to see if impeller has smaller bearing(s) of it's own.
It'd be funny if it was just a case of a bad o-ring, emulsified grease, or something.

Re: Air valves:
Posted 2 new pics
http://www.geocities.com/theexactcha...es1.htm#whtank
of a fourth air valve I was counting originally - this one's on the domestic unit. Also corroded pretty bad.
Please tell me this one can be replaced (by a plumber, not me) to avoid buying a whole new tank. Looks trickier (short stem or seamed into top) than the other air valves.

Otherwise, as mentioned I could plan to post that in a different thread if I can't find threads reviewing basic sweating precautions.

tks again
 
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Old 01-31-05, 05:11 AM
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The other air vent you mentioned is also in the heating system. It is in the boiler water surrounding the coil in your sidearm domestic heater. It is the same as all the others. Just replace it like all the others when the pressure is off the boiler. As far as repairing that old pump, I would advise just putting in a Taco 007 like you have in the picture. That seems to be an interesting setup. It looks like the pump is in the domestic piping and is an iron pump. I didn't study it all that hard but it is a real contraption. If it works, don't mess with it though.

Ken
 
  #7  
Old 02-01-05, 07:51 AM
Jaimes
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(Ken)

Googled and found an online Taco distributor not to far away.
Was glad to see them for less than $100. Had read somewhere these things wer like $500. Will see if they email an answer to my flange-to-flange dimension question. Also asked them about amperage and hp ratings.

The cranky Wagner pump tag says 3.1 amps, and has multiple hp ranges listed. Can't make heads or tails of what hp I should be looking for. The two large B&G's are 1/6 hp.

The Taco 007's listed are 0.7amps, with no hp listed, so wondering if I need to be concerned about that disparity.

Will plan to have plumber do the pump, and valves too I guess, but how many hours do you think we'd have to budget for if all the equipment was here and ready to go?

Would it be okay if I post (in *this* thread) a link to the page where they show you the two different kinds of air valves that co. offers. And to see if their prices are in line?

Thanks
Jim
 
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Old 02-01-05, 08:08 AM
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You should ask the contractor if they will install your parts before you buy them. They may want to furnish any parts they will be responsible for installing or warrantying. The Taco 007 shoud not cost more than $100 no matter where you get it. It will do the job better than your old pump.

You can put the link up as far as I'm concerned, just include any questions you have about it.

Ken
 
  #9  
Old 02-01-05, 12:48 PM
Jaimes
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Checked HD. They sell the 007 and air valves.
Wow. Hard to believe at that size it fits the bill but everyone's swearin' by 'em.

HD guy said he'd help get flange to flange distance okay. Fuel supplier said call and they'll put everything in at $67/hr..

Have valves above and below the pump connection so would you agree the pump and four valves could be done in under two hours.

Thanks very much for recommendations,

Jim
 
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Old 02-01-05, 01:25 PM
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Sorry, I forgot to tell you earlier. 007 will fit where Taco 110 or B&G 100 or their equivalents are now. One difference is that the flanges are rotated 90 degrees from old pumps to 007. Hopefully that won't cause you a problem.

Ken
 
  #11  
Old 02-02-05, 01:22 PM
Jaimes
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The 007 literature/specs says it has what's called "universal flanges".

As far as I can tell they just mean that it has slots instead of fixed position holes. The diamond shape matches and the slots should work fine with flanges on pipes

........but flange to flange the Taco 007 is 6.5" whereas what I have on there now is 8.75".

Kachinnnng! Ring up another $67 hour of labor I guess.
 
 

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