Many questions. Adding zones and purging, etc.


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Old 03-01-05, 07:54 AM
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Many questions. Adding zones and purging, etc.

I have a 2 story cape with hot water baseboard heat. I just ran baseboards in the basement. I originally tied into the existing system without adding a zone and it basically stole the heat from the rest of the house (taking the path of least resistance).
1. is there a way to tie into the existing system without creating a new zone?
2. is it better to have zones?
3. My controller (Honeywell R8182) says it is capaple of zones. How do I set that up. What would the plumbing configuration look like and what extra equipment do I need?
4. I disconnected the basement from the location where I tied in and capped it. Now I can't get the system to circulate. I think I have ait in the system but I have purged the bejesus out of it and every time I open the drain valve more air comes out. What am I doing wrong.
 
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Old 03-01-05, 03:19 PM
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Its better with zones. You would need to install zone valves. The wiring and an extra thermostat.
 
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Old 03-01-05, 03:24 PM
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I just had a plumber at the house to show me exactly what I need. (exactly what you said). My next question is do I wire the zone valves to the controller. I assume they will have wiring directions. I have heard others talk about getting a 24v transformer. My controller R8182 says it does multiple zones will I need a transformer? .
 
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Old 03-01-05, 05:25 PM
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twlunt

How many zone valves & what brand & model number? Basicly the best way to do zone valves is with a separate 24 volt/ 40 VA transformer.
 
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Old 03-01-05, 06:03 PM
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2 zone valves. Don't know the Model #. Haven't bought them yet. Any suugestions. I was told to buy Honeywell.
 
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Old 03-01-05, 06:21 PM
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twlunt

In a Honeywell valve, you will want a V8043 series valve. For 3/4", I prefer the V8043E1061 & for 1" the V8043E1079. These particular valves can be hard to find because they are full port valves & most places don't carry them. Unless you have unusually high flow requirments these particular valves are not necessary.
 
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Old 03-02-05, 07:04 AM
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Zone Valve Installation

twlunt:

I concur with Grady's recommendations for the zone valves with a separate transformer 120v/24v/40va that will be sufficient to drive 3 zone valves; my preference is for the 571 series Taco zone valves because of their availability, low cost & I have had good luck with them over the years; I suspect you will need 3 zone valves ( & thus 3 thermostats); one zone for each floor & 1 for the basement; if you try to add the basement run to the 1st floor you will lose control of the heat adjust of the basement & have a hard time venting air out of the piping runs.

Could you tell us more about your present piping setup, beginning with the boiler; do you have a 3/4", 1" or 1 1/2" supply pipe coming out of the boiler & what it leads to (ordinarily this would lead to the expansion tank, air scoop/spirovent, then the circulator, then the radiator piping); do you have a single pipe series piping going to each baseboard in series throughout the house, or is it 2-pipe, or single pipe with diverter valves (venturi) to supply & return from each baseboard; is the circulator in the supply piping or in the return piping????

Make a drawing on paper of your present system; this will determine how you pipe the new zone valves into a zoned system that will work; a basic 3-zone setup would have the main supply pipe coming out of the boiler, going thru the expansion tank, air scoop/spirovent, sometimes the circulator, then followed by a 2' length of 3/4" pipe capped on one end (often called the supply manifold) with 3 tees of 3/4" each with the 3 zone valve takeoffs going to each of the 3 baseboard zones, then coming back to the boiler & connected (again) to a 2' length of 3/4" pipe (often called the return manifold) then (sometimes thru the circulator in some systems) then back into the boiler; the most economical & efficient setup is to have the single circulator (either in the supply line or the return line) used as the pump for ALL 3 ZONES; whenever one, two, or all 3 zones via the thermostat calls for heat, the circulator will activate & pump the water thru as many zones that are calling for heat.

The sequence is thus, when one of the thermostats closes contacts & "calls for heat", the 2 thermostat wires going to the zone valve activate the zone valve motor which electrically opens an ordinarily closed valve; this then closes an "end switch" inside the zone valve; (this takes about 80 seconds for Taco valve electric motors); the end switch is connected by wire to one of the "t" terminals of the boiler aquastat control, while another wire from the separate 24v transformer energizes the other side of the "t" terminal; this fires up the boiler & circulator & pumps hot water thru the now open zone valve; when the room thermostat is satisfied, it opens, opening the zone valve electric switch, shutting down the burner; the zone valve will eventually close when the water temp reaches the low limit set on the aquastat & the circulator shuts off.

You can see a drawing of basic 2-zone or 3-zone piping systems in books at your local library (John Siegenthaler "Modern Hydronic Heating" Page 119, in most public libraries; or Google "John Siegenthaler", "A little floor warming please" to see a diagram of zone valve circuits).

There will be a diagram of the wiring arrangement of the zone valves that comes with your purchase; you can also take your boiler diagram to the countermen of your local heating supply parts dealer (go in the afternoon in the middle part of the week when things are slow) & ask them to go over it to make sure you're on the right track (or show it to the plumber you consulted with); if you e-mail Taco (taco-hvac.com), or one of the other zone valve mfgs, or phone & ask for their technical helpline they will e-mail you diagrams of various zone valve piping circuits.

Be sure to remove the top section of the zone valve (power head) before you solder it into the piping line to prevent damaging the power head circuitry; Taco also makes a Zone Valve Control Unit (ZVC403 for ~$70) that has a built-in xformer & connectors that will simplify installation; the heat anticipators on the thermostats have to be set to .9 in order for the zone valves to operate correctly.

This project is not very difficult once you get a good focus on which way to go, but it will take some time to complete & require taking down the system for a day or two, if not more; plan your project to take advantage of the milder days that will be here shortly.
 

Last edited by Chimney Cricket; 03-02-05 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-02-05, 11:05 AM
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Wow. You guys have provided a lot of useful tips. To follow up. THe plumber actually drew a diagram of the set up I should have. Seems pretty straight forward. To answer your questions
1. the system is 1 complete loop using a single pipe entering and exiting baseboards throughout the house. The basement will be a second, independant loop thereby requiring the 2nd zone. I would like to have 3 zones but the pipes would have to be significantly rerouted and I'm more interested in finishing the basement at the moment.
2. It is 3/4" pipe through the whole system. It leaves the boiler, through the expansion tank and air scoop, follows the whole loop and back to the boiler where the circulator is mounted (just prior to the boiler)

The plan is to T the supply line after the expansion tank. Both pipes will run through flow valves and then proceed through the system. They will then return to the boiler area where they will each have a zone valve then they will T back to 1 pipe entering the circulator then the boiler.

I'll stop by my local plumbing supply house and go over the parts list. They have always been helpful.
 
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Old 03-02-05, 03:31 PM
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Zone Valve Job

twlunt:

Good. Sounds like you're right on track; the only other suggestion I have is to use 3/4" ball valve shutoffs to isolate some of the piping components; in the event something fails this will simplify repair without having to drain the entire system; thus, place ball valve shutoffs on either side of the circulator & also on either side of the expansion tank; if you have any problems with the zone valves it will be in the power head, which can be changed separately & doesn't require bleeding the system.
 
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Old 03-02-05, 03:42 PM
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Ball valves are definitly part of the plan I just left them out of the post.
question,
Will I be able to use 1 transformer for both zone valves. I'm sure I'll learn more after viewing the wiring diagram that comes with them but right now the only thermostat is wired directly to the relay that is mounted to the boiler. I would wire the thermostats to their respective zone valves. What other wires do I connect. One to the T screw on the relay from the transformer and one from the zone valve to the other T screw. There are only 2 T screws on the relay, do I wire both zone valves that way thereby having them share the T screws on the relay?
 
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Old 03-03-05, 07:36 AM
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One thing I saw that may have been a typo or misunderstanding. You do not need flow checks if you are going to use zone valves. Just put the tee after the air scoop and either put your zone valves there or just pipe from there to the zones and put the valves on the return near the boiler.

Ken
 
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Old 03-03-05, 12:25 PM
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I thought the plumber told me to use them just after I Teed the pipes after the expansion tank. I won't do it if there is no reason for it. What exactly does a Flow Valve do?
 
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Old 03-03-05, 12:34 PM
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A flow valve prevents unwanted circulation in a system that uses circulators instead of zone valves. Your zone valves prevent circulation when the thermostat isn't calling for heat. You don't need them or need to spend the money for a useless part.

Ken
 
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Old 03-03-05, 06:12 PM
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Can anyone tell me in layman's terms how to wire the flow valves. (Taco 571) 2 zones
 
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Old 03-03-05, 07:42 PM
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It might be easier for me to draw you a diagram. PM me with an email address I can send you a diagram to.

Or possibly someone else can explain it clearly enough for you to understand.

Ken
 
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Old 03-07-05, 05:17 AM
David M.
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Not to rudely intervene, but I personally would love to see that diagram if you would so kindly offer it, thank you.
 
 

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