Circulator Question
#1
Circulator Question
Hi, WE have a very nice wood stove that we use a lot. the problem is that in very cold weather here in NH, it fools the tstat and the tstat does not kick on because the stove is makeing the room nice & toasty. As a result, last year a pipe froze in the basement because that tstat was not calling for heat. I did move the location of the tstat to the other side of the house(where it is a bit colder) but this kind of defeated the purpose of the wood stove since I would have both systems kicking on at the same time. Not very efficent. I have a flow check on the side of the Taco circ pump. My question is this: during those very cold spells would it helped if I put a switch to the pump to make it circulate constantly to prevent freezing while using the wood stove. Or, would this cause the pump motor to fail prematurely? And, are these Taco 007 expensive to run continuousely as far as my electric bill. Sorry if I was long winded.
THANKS!
THANKS!
#2
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Circulation problem
Before I can give you an accurate answer I need to know if the boiler stays hot all the time or if it only comes on with a call for heat. Running a 007 constantly will not hurt it nor will it cost you much to run. A 007 only draws 0.71 amp. Roughly equal to a 75 watt light bulb. I suggest you use a single pole double throw switch. This way you could use the pump either thru the boiler controls or run it constantly.
#3
My boiler temp stay at 160-180 so I guess my question about keeping the circ running is a mute point? I'm not going to save anything correct?
If I kept a cold boiler then maybe I would save the oil, but I know that keeping a cold boiler is not a good idea. bESIDES, MY DOMESTIC hot water comes from the boiler also.
THANKS.
If I kept a cold boiler then maybe I would save the oil, but I know that keeping a cold boiler is not a good idea. bESIDES, MY DOMESTIC hot water comes from the boiler also.
THANKS.
#5
why is cold water in a boiler bad ?
I read in this thread that a cold boiller is bad.
I have a big pilot on my 35 year old boiler and shut it down in the summer. Then in Sept I light it up.
I have a big pilot on my 35 year old boiler and shut it down in the summer. Then in Sept I light it up.
#7
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Originally Posted by Grady
Cold water causes condensation. Condensation causes rust/corrosion.
As long as the "dew point" of the air in the combustion area is lower than the temperature you will have no condensation.
#8
Constant circulation is possible, but you would need to pipe a separate loop just for the heating circuits and then a secondary loop through the boiler with thermal protection... A bit of work but should result in the desired comfort.
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Grady/furd
You're both right, and saying essentially the same thing. Cold return temps cause condensation by lowering the temp in the combustion area below the "dew point."
For gas-fired conventional boilers, return temps should be above about 135F to prevent condensation; I believe 140F is what most manufacturers suggest to provide a margin of safety.
For gas-fired conventional boilers, return temps should be above about 135F to prevent condensation; I believe 140F is what most manufacturers suggest to provide a margin of safety.
#10
so xi you seem to be smart...
Am i making a mistake shutting my pilot off in the summer ? the boiler is in the laundry room (at my apartment building) , and with that big pilot running it can get to be 90F+ in July - in addition I hate to pay for all that natural gas,,the pilot is the size of a range burner.
steve
steve
#11
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the illusion of the internet!
Have learned a lot about a few topics; mostly theory, little practical. Your question is not one of them. I can venture a guess, however. If your boiler is only used for heating (i.e., not also providing domestic hot water), then it's probably fine to shut it off for the summer. Caveats: 1) I assume there's a proper shutdown procedure or way to turn off the gas to the appliance. Someone like Grady would probably know. 2) Some boiler controls (like the ones I'm thinking about buying) have a "warm weather shutdown" mode. In this mode, the control cycles the circulator for a few seconds every week or two when it's not heating season. Something like that. Keeps it from seizing up. The analog approach would be to shut down your boiler, then every couple weeks go to the basement and turn on the circulator for a few seconds. Are you the guy with the new Taco?
#12
mentor
yes,
I am the guy that installed a new taco 007 F5 after reading this forum.
the boiler is self contained - seperated from the water system with some $150 dual vented check valve.
in order for me to circulate the water with the boiler off--without the control box telling it to turn on, i could by pass the control box to get live 110 to the motor.
I hate to tell you my gas shut off proceedure. I take the inspection pannel off the boiler and blow out the pilot. I wait a few seconds and hear the thremo coupler do its job and hear the gas click off.
I am the guy that installed a new taco 007 F5 after reading this forum.
the boiler is self contained - seperated from the water system with some $150 dual vented check valve.
in order for me to circulate the water with the boiler off--without the control box telling it to turn on, i could by pass the control box to get live 110 to the motor.
I hate to tell you my gas shut off proceedure. I take the inspection pannel off the boiler and blow out the pilot. I wait a few seconds and hear the thremo coupler do its job and hear the gas click off.
#13
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In my opinion you are NOT making a mistake by shutting down your pilot when the heating season is over. The products of combustion of natural gas includes water vapor; roughly two molecules of water for every molecule of gas burnt. This water will condense in the upper reaches of your boiler and vent stack with a corresponding chance of corrosion.
As for "blowing out the pilot", why not just close the main gas valve to the boiler? Not the knob on the "combination" gas valve but the one in the main line of the boiler?
Come to think of it, even turning the knob on the combination valve all the way to "off" will shut off the pilot.
You may want to consider retro-fitting this unit to electronic ignition.
As for "blowing out the pilot", why not just close the main gas valve to the boiler? Not the knob on the "combination" gas valve but the one in the main line of the boiler?
Come to think of it, even turning the knob on the combination valve all the way to "off" will shut off the pilot.
You may want to consider retro-fitting this unit to electronic ignition.
#14
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Pilot on or pilot off
Personally, I prefer to see pilots left on over the summer. In my area there is a lot of humidity & the slight amount of heat from the pilot helps to prevent condensation in the flueways of the boiler. Obviously, there are a lot of variables to the amount of condensation & rust which will form. Pin style boilers are more subject to plugging than tube style. In a couple of instances, I've seen boilers plug so badly over the summer they had to be re-cleaned before start up in the fall. Contrary to popular belief, heating appliances should be cleaned promply at the end of the heating season not in the fall.
#15
Clean a boiler ?
Ive never cleaned my boiler. Dont even know how.
In my 7 years of ownership of this 30 year old apartment building - next to cutting the grass the boiiler has been the most labor.
- 2 B & H Motors
- 3 Zone valves
- 2 bearing assemblies
- 3 impellers
- 5, yes, FIVE couplers
- a new control box
- one expansion tank
- relief valve
- finally a taco pump. i plan on next winter.....all will be well. And If not, with the help of this forrum, I have the courage to fix anything.
In my 7 years of ownership of this 30 year old apartment building - next to cutting the grass the boiiler has been the most labor.
- 2 B & H Motors
- 3 Zone valves
- 2 bearing assemblies
- 3 impellers
- 5, yes, FIVE couplers
- a new control box
- one expansion tank
- relief valve
- finally a taco pump. i plan on next winter.....all will be well. And If not, with the help of this forrum, I have the courage to fix anything.
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BOB53 freeze-up problem.
"Running a 007 constantly will not hurt it"? Yes and no. On one of my Taco zone valves, the normally open contact shorted, causing the boiler and circulator to run constantly. Since the valve itself still worked, the house did not overheat, however, the pump cartridge seized before I knew I had a problem. These cartridges are replaceable, but not available from HD or Lowes and in most cases cost as much as a complete Taco 007. I got a new complete pump from HD for less than any cartridge available.
To fix BOB53's problem, I suggest a separate zone for the basement. You can do this with 2 zone valves as I currently have or if you have had it with zone valve failures (Tacos fail less than Flairs, but still fail), you can install 2 Taco 007s (with IFC(Intergral Flow Control) on the zone without the check valve) on the output side of the boiler and a TACO 2 ZONE SWITCHING RELAY SR502-1. I have this mod scheduled for this summer. I got a Taco 007 IFC and the SR502-1 via some conservative ebay bidding 2 minutes before the auctions ended.
Note: SR503/4/6 will also work if you get them for a good price and you will have spare relay cartridges, or you can also use 2 SR501's, one for each thermostat. If you can get 2 501's for the same $ as 1 502, go 4 it.
To fix BOB53's problem, I suggest a separate zone for the basement. You can do this with 2 zone valves as I currently have or if you have had it with zone valve failures (Tacos fail less than Flairs, but still fail), you can install 2 Taco 007s (with IFC(Intergral Flow Control) on the zone without the check valve) on the output side of the boiler and a TACO 2 ZONE SWITCHING RELAY SR502-1. I have this mod scheduled for this summer. I got a Taco 007 IFC and the SR502-1 via some conservative ebay bidding 2 minutes before the auctions ended.
Note: SR503/4/6 will also work if you get them for a good price and you will have spare relay cartridges, or you can also use 2 SR501's, one for each thermostat. If you can get 2 501's for the same $ as 1 502, go 4 it.
#18
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Originally Posted by sdanville
Ive never cleaned my boiler. Dont even know how.
In my 7 years of ownership of this 30 year old apartment building - next to cutting the grass the boiiler has been the most labor.
- 2 B & H Motors
- 3 Zone valves
- 2 bearing assemblies
- 3 impellers
- 5, yes, FIVE couplers
- a new control box
- one expansion tank
- relief valve
- finally a taco pump. i plan on next winter.....all will be well. And If not, with the help of this forrum, I have the courage to fix anything.
In my 7 years of ownership of this 30 year old apartment building - next to cutting the grass the boiiler has been the most labor.
- 2 B & H Motors
- 3 Zone valves
- 2 bearing assemblies
- 3 impellers
- 5, yes, FIVE couplers
- a new control box
- one expansion tank
- relief valve
- finally a taco pump. i plan on next winter.....all will be well. And If not, with the help of this forrum, I have the courage to fix anything.
NEVER cleaned the boiler? Whassamatter, don't you like it?
After you shut it down this spring/summer open any and all access doors and remove the vent (smoke) pipe. Use your shop vac (preferably with a HEPA filter) and vacuum up everything that you can see. Use a wire brush to clean off any scaly parts. You may need to fasten a handle of some sort to a wire brush to reach into the combustion area. If you have a "fire tube" type of boiler where the products of combustion go through the inside of tubes on their way to the stack you will need to get a "flue brush" to clean these. The flue brush will screw onto a piece of 1/4 inch steel pipe to make it long enough to push completely through the tube. Once started it is extremely difficult to pull the brush back until it has passed completely through the tube.
After thoroghly cleaning the "firesides" you will then carefully inspect the burner itself. Clean the pilot burner and make sure the thermocouple for the combination gas valve is not damages. If you have individual nozzles on the main burner make sure none of them are damaged.
Put the darn thing back together and you will have a more efficient boiler this fall.
(Yeah, there is LOTS more but this will get you started.)
#19
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Another reason not to use zone valves
Grady, I agree that the cause for the 007 failure was external (zone valve) and not a circulator defect.
I assume you approve of my plan to replace the zone valves with the SR502, the existing 007 relocated for the basement, which does not thermosyphon since the baseboards are below the boiler, and the 007 IFC for the upper floor. I forgot to mention that I have a separate water heater for hot water supply.
With this setup and a 2 year old boiler, the reliability factor should improve quite a bit.
I assume you approve of my plan to replace the zone valves with the SR502, the existing 007 relocated for the basement, which does not thermosyphon since the baseboards are below the boiler, and the 007 IFC for the upper floor. I forgot to mention that I have a separate water heater for hot water supply.
With this setup and a 2 year old boiler, the reliability factor should improve quite a bit.
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IFC Circulators
Actually, the IFC circulator seemed like a good idea until I got it and decided to test the flow. Looking at the IFC, which on this 007 is mounted in the output flange, it appeared that it might restrict the circulation. I connected 2" u piping to the input, filled it with water and fired it up. I am no HVAC expert, but the stream did not impress me. Should I pull out the IFC and compare the flow? Fortunately, I bid on this circulator assuming I was getting the IFC free, so I can install a separate flow valve and still know I got the circulator for a good price.
I had a no-zone system with a hot water coil in a former house. Since it had to maintain boiler temp. all year, a flow valv was an absolute requirement. It got stuck open on a comfortable spring morning and the inside temp soared. I hit it with a wrench and it worked until I moved.
I had a no-zone system with a hot water coil in a former house. Since it had to maintain boiler temp. all year, a flow valv was an absolute requirement. It got stuck open on a comfortable spring morning and the inside temp soared. I hit it with a wrench and it worked until I moved.
#22
Didn't taco redesign the IFC because the initial design was flawed?
If you need flow control, I would think that IFC is the way to go. Less cost and flow control valves are something that can eventually fail. Why not have them mounted on flanges with isolation valves as they would be when integral to the circ?
Just an opinion...
If you need flow control, I would think that IFC is the way to go. Less cost and flow control valves are something that can eventually fail. Why not have them mounted on flanges with isolation valves as they would be when integral to the circ?
Just an opinion...
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Didn't taco redesign the IFC because the initial design was flawed?
Stand-alone type Flow valves are usually cast iron and have female pipe threads, so you could adapt them to unions or B&G flanges(B&G flanges are less expensive than Taco and the red color might be preferred by some).
The TACO 007 IFC is of 2 types. One has the IFC in the output flange, the other has it in the center of the pump body and you need to remove the cartridge to get to it. I don't know which is better, has the best flow, or is the improved model. Maybe Grady knows. I am guessing he has a low opinion of both. I didn't know which version I won on Ebay until I picked it up at the local PO.
OK Grady, while we're at it, what are the failure indications? Does it allow thermosyphon, or worse, does it clog or otherwise reduce the pump performance?
The TACO 007 IFC is of 2 types. One has the IFC in the output flange, the other has it in the center of the pump body and you need to remove the cartridge to get to it. I don't know which is better, has the best flow, or is the improved model. Maybe Grady knows. I am guessing he has a low opinion of both. I didn't know which version I won on Ebay until I picked it up at the local PO.
OK Grady, while we're at it, what are the failure indications? Does it allow thermosyphon, or worse, does it clog or otherwise reduce the pump performance?
#24
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Rexx--ifc
Keep going with the what went wrong with the IFC circulators. They just plain didn't work. No good, out of the box. Not just one, but three in a row. In my ball game, it's three strikes & you're out. I'm not big on combination devices in any case. Regarding the failure rate on flow control valves: In 20 years in the trade, I think I've replaced three or four flow control valves. Some guys call me an old fart but I would rather replace an individual component such as a circulator or a flow control valve than a combination device. My feeling is "do one thing & do it well". Just my opinion.