Bunch of questions - pick one or takle all - HELP HELP


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Old 10-12-05, 05:18 PM
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Bunch of questions - pick one or takle all - HELP HELP

I just bought a Biasi B10 series B3 boiler that I plan to install myself. I worked for a plumber (my uncle) for a few years, but never did a boiler install (did many forced hot air systems). I consider myself a good mechanic and am good with copper. I was an electrician for many years so the controls will not be a problem. My weakness is lack of knowledge about piping (order, sizing, ect.). I would GREATLY appreciate it if my questions were answered.

1. the old oil burner was fed by copper tubing run along the basement floor - YUCH!!! Sick of stepping on it. Can I run the new oil feed overhead or does the burner depend on gravity to get it's oil? The tanks are in the basement as well.

2. the old system had the circ. pumps on the return side. Is this correct? I have seen drawings (on the net) with the pumps on the supply side.

3. I will have 3 zones ( dom. hot water, 1st floor and 2nd floor). The salesman at the supply house said something about putting the DHW on the priority but I do not understand this. Please explain.

4. I bought an expansion tank. Should this be teed off of the supply side? Where does the back flow fit in?

5. Where the hec is the cold water feed to this boiler?? My instructions show the supply tapping, return tapping, boiler drain tapping, press/temp gauge tapping, Hi limit tapping and PRV tapping, but NO cold water feed. ?????

6. What should I use at boiler tappings for seal? teflon tape? pipe dope? Do most of you use copper direct out of the boiler? In other words should I get two 1 and 1/2" male adapters for the supply and return tappings?

Is there any place that I can find a piping schematic/ crash course that pertains to my questions??

Thanks for any help as the family is and has been without hot water for 2 weeks and counting - I am not too well liked right now
 
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Old 10-12-05, 06:47 PM
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Answers- helpful I hope

(1) You can run overhead but I strongly suggest the addition of a Tiger Loop when doing so.

(2) Pumping away is the now prefered way but if it will require major repiping or the install instructions show otherwise, that's ok too.

(3) I like to use a multi-zone switching rely such as is shown here: http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/fil...ry/100-9.0.pdf
I always get a relay with at least one more zone than I need for expansion & in case one relay craps out wires can be quickly switched to the spare zone.

(4) Expansion tank location will depend on circulator location. The back flow preventer should go in the boiler feed line ahead of the reducing valve (feed valve).

(5) I was taught to feed into the bottom of the boiler but others prefer to feed into the boiler discharge (suppy main).

(6) Thread sealant: I prefer to use teflon tape & then paint over it with Permatex (or Locktite, same stuff) Pipe Thread Compound.
For near boiler piping, I prefer black steel. Beyond the supply & return manifolds then I go to copper.

(7) Glad you asked about reference material. Go to http://www.heatinghelp.com. Click on "Shop for Books & more". Order a book called "Pumping Away and Other Really Cool Piping Options for Hydronic Systems". Best $25 you will spend on this project. Then you can join me here.
 
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Old 10-13-05, 05:22 AM
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Grady, Thanks so much for your help. I would love to order that book but I am afraid I can't wait much longer - for better or worse I need to start today. I do need just a bit of clarification.

1. I saw the tigers loop online - I assume I need a pump in addition? What size/where would I get this?

2. I can pipe away so I guess I will do that. Can I run an 1 1/2 horizantal and then branch off 3/4 risers to the feed side of each circulator?

3. I actually bought a 4 zone Taco switching relay already (planned the extra zone for my garage someday.

4. OK so if I put the 3 circulators on the supply side (pumping away), where would the exp. tank go? On the return? Would I tee off the 1 1/2 line close to the boiler?

5. There are two tappings on the bottom labeled "boiler drain tappin" and "alternative bd tapping". So I can feed into one of those? I just need to get a feed (reducing) valve?

6. I don't have any dies for 1 1/2 black pipe. Are you saying that you use black pipe up to the top of the boiler and then change to copper? I would need a 3' piece to bring me up from the return.


SUMMARY - Let me see if I have this right - I would come out of the supply tapping with 1 1/2 black pipe (nipple, elbow, another nipple) to another ell. From there I can change to 1 1/2 copper (now running horizantally) and use 1 1/2 x 3/4 tees for the 1st two circulators and an 1 1/2 x 3/4 ell to the last circulator.

On the return side I would come out of the return tapping with a short 1 1/2 nipple, ell, then a 3' piece of black pipe rising up above the top of the boiler. At that point I can use another ell, convert to copper and run an 1 1/2 horizantal line to pick up each 3/4 copper return line. The expansion tank could tee off of the 1 1/2 horizantal line as well.

Coming out of one boiler drain tapping I would use a 3/4 nipple, ell, and a 3' riser up above the boiler. Then I would change to copper, install a backflow and then a reducing valve before connecting to my cold water line.

Do I get a thumbs up or thumbs down???

Oh yeah - the old boiler (which used pumps on the return) had a flocheck valve of some kind on the 2" supply. What is the deal with that? The old boiler also used a barometric draft, but my instructions say that this is included only with gas models. So I guess I just vent directly Instructions also say this boiler has a low stack temp (350 degrees gross). Do you think I will have condensation issues with my 1948 masonary chimney/liner?
 
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Old 10-13-05, 03:48 PM
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Thumbs up Getting started

(1) The Tiger Loop should be available at any HVAC supply house which does a good bit of oil heat business. No extra pump needed. Uses the pump on the burner.

(2) I use a black riser, tee, nipple, tee (1 1/2"), nipple, tee, etc, until I get to the last circulator take off where in the end of the tee, I put a plug for future expansion if needed. Use 1 1/2" nipple to go to the circulators then on the other side of the circs go to your 3/4" copper. Unless you are using circulators with built in check valves, you will also need to add flow control valves.

(3) Good Move. Piece of cake to wire.

(4) A good place for the tank would be on the tee at the top of the supply riser.

(5) You could feed into one of them if you wish. I think that boiler has a swing open front door. If so, make sure no piping interferes with that operation. You need a reducing valve, yes.

(6) Pre-cut pieces (long nipples) are availabe at some HVAC supply houses & at many home centers. Make a manifold for the return like you do for the supply. Be sure to include purge valves in each return loop near or part of the manifold.

(7) You may have a condensation problem. Almost certain if the chimney does not go up thru the house. You may end up lining the chimney with a stainless liner.

(8) You will need a flow control valve (flow check) for each zone.
 
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Old 10-13-05, 05:34 PM
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Grady,
Thanks so much - that is all very helpful to me - I think I am on track to get started.
As I said before, the old oil feed line was running on the floor and now I want to go overhead. You suggest a tiger loop. Can I put this in later or does it need to go in now? What do they cost about? The old line was very small copper - do I use the same or something else?
Thanks again - you have been a huge help!!!
 
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Old 10-13-05, 05:44 PM
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Tiger Loop/ oil line

The Tiger Loop should go in with the installation. They retail for around $150-175 but you can probably find them a good bit cheaper.

Line size: Unless I have a very long run (over 75 ft.) or a lot of lift (you don't), I normally use 3/8" O.D. copper. Some local codes require 1/2" O.D.
Be sure to put a good filter ahead of the Tiger Loop. The bigger the better. Often I use two filters in series.
 
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Old 10-14-05, 04:28 AM
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Thanks again. Three more questions (sorry, keep thinking of things) -
1. do I really need the air scoop and air vent above the expansion tank?
2. is it best to install a black 1 1/2" union on both the supply and return risers coming out of the boiler?
3. Do I need an 1 1/2" supply valve somewhere close to the boiler? If so what type?

Any good pictures of a job well done that I can access?????
 
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Old 10-14-05, 02:14 PM
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Guess what I found

A piping diagrahm. It is from Burnham but a piping diagrahm none the less. If you will send me your e-mail address via a "private message" I will send it to you.
It shows every connection inclulding valving.
To send me a private message, just click on my name & a menu will drop down. Click send a private message & the PM screen will open.
 
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Old 10-14-05, 03:56 PM
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Some nice fellow already sent me one of those - a BIG help! I am basically piping my like the drawing. I was just wondering if someone had actual pictures of the finished product. I bought a 1 1/2"ball valve today that I will install in the supply line on the riser coming out of the boiler. I also bought 2 - 1 1/2" unions (1 for the supply and 1 for the return. I opted not to get the bypass valve as shown on the diagram.
 

Last edited by tomfmal; 10-14-05 at 04:09 PM.
 

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