Self Install-Couple of quest. Pictures shown!


  #1  
Old 10-15-05, 06:19 PM
jpmhughes
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Smile Self Install-Couple of quest. Pictures shown!

Hi,
I noticed that Grady had thought that pictures really helped and of course I can see why, so I posted some here:
http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Index.htm
Basically I drew out the direction of flow and comments on the photos I uploaded.
I just want to be sure about this and the fill valve placement(s) and back-flow preventer.
I am going to put a back-flow preventer and fill valve in line with the cold water inlet (there was not one before).
There is a fill-valve in the current system, but it doesn't look like it is in the correct place to me.
Should I also put a fill valve in this same relative position on the new boiler?

Also I was wondering when I install the becket burner into the Slant Fin Intrepid TR-30, I should check the burn efficiency. The manual mentions this but:
What do I use to check the O2 and how much are they usually?
Do some places rent them (if expensive)?
And then adjust the air inlet and draft...
Thanks for any help.
Jim
 
  #2  
Old 10-16-05, 04:01 PM
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Wrong

The direction of flow in your picture is backward. Water goes out the top & in the bottom. Check the arrow on the circulator. If it points toward the boiler, take the circulator off & flip it over.
As far as feed location, most instruction manuals specify where the manufacturer wants it. Refer to the installation manual which came with the boiler.
There is no place of which I am aware which rents combustion test instruments & yes they are expensive ($1000+). When you are finished with the installation & before you try to fire it up, call a pro to do the start up.
 

Last edited by Grady; 10-16-05 at 04:44 PM.
  #3  
Old 10-16-05, 09:42 PM
jpmhughes
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Thanks Grady

Grady,
Thank you for your response, it is greatly appreciated.
I am taking this slow and reading and studying everything I can.
I thought the flow may be wrong and am glad I asked.

As far as the testing equipment is concerned, I found this True Spot Smoke tester here:
http://www.omnicontrols.net/index.html?item225.html
I assume this is not the same thing that you are talking about?

Should I install a Low Water Cut-off? There wasn't one before, it was installed in 1976 so I am sure things have changed a lot.

Do I even need a back-flow preventer?

Oh, and was the the Pressure-Reducing or "Feed" Valve installed correctly in my current unit?

Also, I pretty much do the same thing online for computer help as you do here for heating help etc. If you ever nee any help with anything related to computers I would be more than happy to reciprocate.
Thanks again.
Jim

Here is the link to the pictures again, so they don't get missed.
http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Index.htm
 

Last edited by jpmhughes; 10-16-05 at 10:40 PM.
  #4  
Old 10-16-05, 10:13 PM
H
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makeup water supply location

this should be between the air cushion tank and the bottom of the air scoop, I believe its 1/2". The back flow preventer and the pressure reducing valve on the make up water are required by code.
 
  #5  
Old 10-16-05, 10:48 PM
jpmhughes
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Excuse my questions here but..

Thanks for taking the time to answer me, I do appreciate it.

What should be "between the air cushion tank and the bottom of the air scoop"?
By air cushion tank do you mean the Amtrol and air scoop?

And was the the Feed Valve installed correctly in my current unit?
It seems to me that it should have been put in line with the cold water inlet.

Also will the True Spot Smoke tester I found here work to test the burner efficiency and O2?:
http://www.omnicontrols.net/index.html?item225.html

Lastly, Should I install a Low Water Cut-off? is this what should be installed where you mention above?
Thanks again.
Jim
 
  #6  
Old 10-17-05, 04:23 PM
jpmhughes
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New Illustration in link

I have put a new illustration of the layout for my new boiler at
http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Index.htm

Questions:

1. Should I place the Drains to purge air below or above the zone valves? Does it matter?

2. Should I have a PRV feed valve in-between the return pipe going into the bottom of the boiler and the cold water inlet with a Turn off valve/waste drain valve, like my current boiler
or
is the way I have put the back-flow and PRV feed valve inline with the cold water inlet correct
or should I do both?

And to reiterate my question above:

3. Should I install a Low Water Cut-off?
Where would it install?

I included the piping pages from the manual.

Does this look correct or am I missing something?

Thanks very much,
Jim
 

Last edited by jpmhughes; 10-17-05 at 04:52 PM.
  #7  
Old 10-17-05, 07:10 PM
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Piping

Follow the piping diagram(s) included in the manufacturers installation manual. I always like to see a low water cut off. It should be installed in the vertical supply pipe as long as the circulator does not have an internal check valve. The sketch has several errors. You do not need a flow check with zone valves. Location of the PRV is incorrect.
A smoke tester will tell you only the smoke produced, nothing more.
 
  #8  
Old 10-17-05, 10:05 PM
jpmhughes
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piping changed

Grady,
Thanks once again.

Ok, so if I follow the diagram in Figure 6 from the manual, I don't need to use the connection on the top left which connects to the compression tank because I am using the air-scoop/vent/diaphragm tank, right? I have plugged it.

I have changed the sketch at http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Index.htm

Is the PRV correct now? It is in the same position as the "flow regulating valve" in the manual, which I assume is a different name for the same thing.
I think one of the biggest problems I am having is the fact that there are several names for the same things.

Plus I removed the flow control valve.

Should the piping to the 2nd floor be after the Amtrol tank?

I may put in a tempering valve. What do you think?

By the way, what is the difference between an "Air eliminating system" and a "Air collecting system" I assume mine is a Air eliminating system.

You mentioned that "The sketch has several errors" what are some of the other errors?

Jim
 

Last edited by jpmhughes; 10-17-05 at 10:28 PM.
  #9  
Old 10-18-05, 07:11 AM
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Jim,
I am going through the same learning phase as you. I had done some boiler work with my uncle but that was over 14 years ago and never did a complete install. From what I have seen in all drawings the individual branch supplies come after the expansion tank (not saying yours is wrong or won't work). You should install the tee for the tank a minimum of 18" from the riser - your drawing shows it pretty close. Your drawing brings up a question. I am using independent circulators for each zone rather than one circulator and zone valves. I figure if I lose a circulator, I will have heat to other parts of the house without losing the whole thing. I wonder what the other advantages/disadvantages are?? A low water cutoff may be code in your area. Beyond that it is a safety device that you need to decide how important it is to you. I would use the tempering valve especialy if you have small kids - water is always too hot. I am using an indirect tank this time around - did you consider that? Good luck.
Tom
 
  #10  
Old 10-18-05, 08:42 PM
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Off line

For some reason, every time I try to look at one of the links you provided, I get booted offline by my ISP. I'll try again tomorrow night.
 
  #11  
Old 10-18-05, 09:10 PM
jpmhughes
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Uploaded a second drawing

There is a second layout at
http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Index.htm
you can scroll down to see the original piping from the manual too. The problem with the manual is that it does not show a backflow and refers to a "Flow Regulating Valve" which I assume is a fill valve.
I have a Watts Bronze Combination Fill Valve and Backflow Preventer, so I am keeping them together.
Hopefully I am getting close now.
I just want to start sweating and soldering!
Jim
 
  #12  
Old 10-18-05, 09:25 PM
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Install manual

The Intrepid manual in not available online so I am going to refer to the one for the Liberty II series. Please download one from Slant Fin's site so we can both be looking at the same manual. For piping purposes it will not be a problem to use the Liberty II manual.
Your PRV should not go in series but rather parallel with the feed to the domestic coil.
 
  #13  
Old 10-18-05, 09:30 PM
jpmhughes
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Downloaded manual

Grady,
I downloaded the manual (LD40.pdf)
Once I am sure about everything I will make a final drawing.
And you are right the manuals look identical, in fact it looks like they just replaced "Intrepid" with "Liberty II".

"Your PRV should not go in series but rather parallel with the feed to the domestic coil."

So more like the drawing on the left?

Interestingly, my current boiler is set up this way (like the drawing on the right), so I figured it was OK. But the more I learned the less "right" it seemed.

Jim
 
  #14  
Old 10-19-05, 04:05 PM
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Piping

Since I can't get this to come out right as a drawing, I'll have to explain as best I can. In the line from the well, install a Tee. One side of the Tee will go to the domestic coil & the other side to the PRV. From the PRV, you can feed the boiler as shown in figure 6, page 7, of the Liberty II manual.
 
  #15  
Old 10-19-05, 08:21 PM
jpmhughes
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Almost there

Sorry to be so dense. I just like to be certain of things.
I uploaded a pdf (smaller file and cleaner that way) to:
http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Furnacerev2.pdf

I also private messaged you to another layout I found on the internet.
I modeled the pdf after this drawing.
http://www.wattsreg.com/thermalexpan...ystem-lrg2.jpg

So I am feeding the boiler in two places:
The domestic coil (for hot water to appliances)
and via the T to
The return with the backflow and PRV, where it says "Alternate pump location" in the diagram.
So my drawing should be right?
The other color drawing I linked you to in the private message, shows the Water pressure reducing valve (#18 on the drawing) before the cold water to fixtures. But I don't want to reduce cold water pressure to my appliances so I put it after, that is OK, correct? I don't show the cold water going to my appliances in my pdf. It would be continued on the left if it were.

No need for Flow Checks because I am using zone valves, I also read that in a book I have. But why do so many illustrations show both?

I called Slant Fin, my circulator does not have a low water cutoff built in.
I could add one in. Is it as important for forced hot water as it is for Steam?
If so what brand do you recommend? Is this OK:
http://www.taco-hvac.com/products.ht...t_category=152
Taco seems like the industry standard. They seem to be around 90.00 dollars, not too bad if really needed.

So is the drawing finally right?
If not I will keep changing it.
I may have misunderstood you.
Thanks for your patience
Jim
 
  #16  
Old 10-19-05, 10:22 PM
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Let's add some confusion to the mess!

Well from what I saw... You have a bullhead tee off one circuit ( a big no-no in piping), The make-up water supply line is installed to a tee inserted between the air cushion tank and the air scoop... this is refered to the point of no pressure change. Directly after that install the circulator. All circulators should have isolation valves before and aft...Believe me you will have to change one some day. The return line needs no air vent. and by all means install a tempering valve to the tankless. I believe code requires it anyway except for a dishwasher line ( if you feel like running a separate line for that). Most all near boiler piping plans are the same. I got one online that had tons of different layouts depending on what you had... It was the V83 boiler I think,.. it has great PDF diagrams too. If you want to read a great book on these ideas it's about $25.00 on "heatinghelp.com" called pumping away by Dan Holohan,... very easily explained theroy by an on hands person.
 
  #17  
Old 10-19-05, 10:28 PM
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A site to see

Check out this site and download the installation manual... in the product information section
http://www.burnham.com/residential/new51260.cfm
 
  #18  
Old 10-19-05, 10:52 PM
jpmhughes
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Where did you get the PDF

Where did you get the PDF that you mention here:

"Most all near boiler piping plans are the same. I got one online that had tons of different layouts depending on what you had... It was the V83 boiler I think,.. it has great PDF diagrams too"

If it is the one you link to, I downloaded it and will study it.

So I guess the other drawing I linked to was not correct?

Oh and by the way, what is a "Bullhead T" and where is this in the drawing I made that is incorrect?

Thanks,
Jim
 

Last edited by jpmhughes; 10-19-05 at 11:13 PM.
  #19  
Old 10-19-05, 11:09 PM
jpmhughes
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RE: Drawing

I think some of what you are seeing is not right.
There is no "T" or connection to the line going out to the Amtrol tank. I just drew it OVER the other pipe. Unless the pipe is connected it is not part of that pipe.
Jim
 
  #20  
Old 10-20-05, 03:25 PM
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connections you WILL

need a tee to connect the make-up water supply line into the boiler water circuit. You may need a few close nipples as well as a male adapter from pipe thread to sweat. A Bullhead tee is when you have the water flow slam into the back wall of the tee fitting and divert left and right rather than left OR right and continuing on straight...in other words the branch must be connected to a branch line not the run line. all tees have two runs and one branch. The branch would be the vertical tap in the letter T
 
  #21  
Old 10-21-05, 12:24 PM
jpmhughes
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New Pdf

http://members.cox.net/jpmhughes/Furnacerev2.pdf

I have the water feeding in just upstream of the air scoop as per Grady's suggested preference.

I added in a low water cutoff and tempering valve.

Grady and HVAC01453 Please Check it out and let me know.

Do I need a 150psi relief valve or 30psi relief valve at the tankless hot water out pipe?

Oh and what is a flow regulating valve (cold into the coil in my picture)? is it the same as a PRV feed valve?
I put it in because I see it on every pipe setup.

Thanks
Jim
 
  #22  
Old 10-21-05, 08:23 PM
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flow regulating valve

this is a small hole in the pipe that restricts the flow of water at a certain rate/GPM...this limits the amount of cold water entering the tankless coil otherwise the water wouldn't hang around long enough to get hot.
I don't remember if you had flow check valves in their either. The make-up water supply at the point of no pressure change is at the diaphgram tank that is precharged to 12PSI and the regulator to the boiler is also set to 12PSI. The circulator should be located after the tank or you will not get any increase in pressure change to move the water after the tank. The tank pressure after the tank will be 12PSI BUT if its located on the other side of the tank just a few feet away from the circulator the line pressure will increase to 18PSI (approx)... Amtrol actually makes a fitting specifically designed to go there. Most techs make their own. I'll check that V83 manual and tell you which page to look at....you can also get an opinion at heatinghelp.com, or Buy Dan Holohans book. Pumping away
 
  #23  
Old 10-21-05, 08:32 PM
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Details

check out the diagram at http://www.burnham.com/pdfs/CurrentPDFfiles/8142824.pdf on page 26 hope this helps
 
 

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