Energy Kinetics-System 2000

Reply

  #1  
Old 01-17-06, 01:44 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Energy Kinetics-System 2000

Thinking about putting in one of these in my new home. It will be a propane boiler. All the literature looks great. But can't find any reviews anywhere. Has anyone seen or heard of them. Tom.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-17-06, 05:37 PM
Jay11J's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Posts: 18,427
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have never been around this boiler. It looks like a great system. but I hate to see the sticker price on this baby!

If you do get this, make sure you get the extended warrenty.
 
  #3  
Old 01-17-06, 06:36 PM
KField's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 3,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have been using them since 1988 and they are still my favorite. To be honest, I could probably make more money installing a less expensive system but I think every good design idea that a syatem can have is built in to that system. Some service techs are put off by its apparent complication but I think it is actually easier to service than most other boilers. I have never installed a propane burner but have installed a few natural gas models.

Ken
 
  #4  
Old 01-17-06, 06:46 PM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,928
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
System 2000/propane

Unless Energy Kinetics has changed their mind in the last few years, they did not want their boilers fired on propane.
I kind of hate to say this but as much as KField likes them, I dislike them. We discontinued selling them about 5 years ago.
 
  #5  
Old 01-18-06, 01:10 PM
JimN's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
1 Consumer Review

I have had one in my house since 1994. I have to say it runs as clean and efficient now as it did when new. I still can't believe how quite it runs. Over the years I have to replace and expansion tank, two zone valves, and a digital T-stat. I consider that normal, especially since I was able to do the repairs myself.

The previous owner of my house paid for the system, but I am glad he chose a better system.

Jim
 
  #6  
Old 03-04-09, 03:23 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: CT.
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Energy Kinetics System 2000 review

I bought the ENERGY KINETICS SYSTEM 2000 OIL boiler (EK1) back in Aug. of 2008 and as of this post had it for 6 winter months. If you are thinking of getting one of these please read on as I can save you a lot time & effort, in your choosing if you should get one or not. Go get a cup of coffee, this is going to be a long post! I'm doing this because I feel that after research on the web etc. my questions just were not being answered! BTW No, I'm not a company rep to any poster that might think that a "newbie" might be one... I'm just a homeowner that wants to help other homeowners, and that others won't have to go thru what I went thru!
I started looking almost 8 months before I bought a boiler and did many many hours of web searches, reading blogs etc., looking at boiler lit and talking to 9 local heating contractors ( and getting bids) as well as 2 heating contractors that would never make a dime on me as I was too far away.
The short ver. of the story is this...I ended up talking to a friends husband that owns a large oil co. in CT., they also install boilers & service them. It was too bad that he would not install mine as I was too far away for him, but the info I'm about to share is straight from an oil co. owner that wasn't going to see a dime in his pocket and had nothing to gain.
He said that over the last 25+ yrs he had installed many diff. boilers, all kinds of controls and programmable thermostats etc, as far as he was concerned the Energy Kinetics System 2000 was the only thing that really did save his oil customers 100's of gallons of oil a year!
He told me that he went thru his records from over the last 10 yrs. & looked at all the diff. brands of oil boilers (many of them listed in other posts on this topic) and the System 2000 was the clear winner. Some of the boilers he mentioned he didn't install, but the bottom line was some boilers, like the Buderous with the controller, saved some oil like 5-8 percent, but the System 2000 customers were saving 35-45 percent on oil consumption! He took into account the K factor for each year, as well as service records...so it wasn't a few min. of quick going over the numbers, but many hours of work to come to this conclusion.
The next thing he said was to make sure I bought it from someone that can service it. The only thing was, as others have said, some oil co's I got quotes from also wanted me to buy the oil & expensive service contracts from them. One company went so far as to say if you don't buy oil from us you're on your own for service! (they were the highest bidder at over $10,000 & tried to get me to buy the Buderous to boot! gee maybe because they would sell more oil?) I was lucky to find a dealer that was close to me that didn't sell oil, just installed & serviced boilers....BTW I found this out from calling the Energy Kinetics co. directly in NJ...nice folks & very helpful too! (and yes a real American answers the phone!)
I ended up getting the stainless steel 40 gal. hot water tank as I have acid water, as well as an extra zone valve as a back up and the "dummy" board in case the control board got zapped by a lightning strike or a power surge.
I also needed a new oil tank as mine was well over due and was also 50 yrs old. After much research I bought a Roth tank that was shown on TOH. It's a plastic tank inside a metal one. The only issue I ran into was air in the line. The old tank took oil from the bottom but the Roth sucks it from a few inches above, which is good, as you never need to worry about crud getting into your burner or clogging the filter BUT...it also is easier for air to get into the line! I guess when the oil is delivered it creates a lot of air bubbles & foam in the tank. In my case the tank was moved from 50' away to 5' away, so it was even more of an issue. One day in Dec. I got an oil delivery and a few hours later my burner stopped working. Pushing the reset button didn't work...so my dealer had to come out to get the air out...nice guy didn't even charge for the service call. The solution was to put in a Tigerloop , which takes out the air and self primes if need be.
I also had a few issues right off the bat. This is kind of funny...After telling my wife how great it's going to be to finally have unlimited hot water for showers (it used last no more than 3 min., I had a tankless before.) She comes home from work after a long hard day the first day we got the System 2000 gets in the shower soaps up...and you guessed it, no hot water! I didn't hear the end of that for weeks! anyway...My dealer came right over and found a problem with a board or something on the hot water tank and replaced it. The hot water has been great!
I also had an issue with one of my zones not working as the wiring to the 2 wire thermostat was backwards. I guess that stuff happens in 50 yr. old houses...so even if it's 90 deg out when you get it installed ck all the zones to make sure they work!
As far as my savings...I have, for the last 50 yrs, always got 2 deliveries of oil of about 250 gal each in Jan.& Feb, this year I only got one delivery each month! 500 gallons saved in 2 months, that's great in my book! I also saved about 180 gallons from Sept. to Dec.
I save $20 a month on electric as the system doesn't go on every 2 hours like the old burner did to keep the water hot all the time and there is only one small circulator and not the 2 big ones I had. This was a bonus I wasn't expecting! During the warm months the burner only went on 2 times a day rather than 12 times. At first I thought there would be an issue that the one circulator could handle the whole house & hot water, but now after going thru one of the coldest winters in 20 yrs. it not an issue.
I also found out later from my dealer that on an older round type thermostat, to move the anticipator (the little metal arrow at the bottom of the unit) all the way to the right, or for least amount of time. This helped even out the heating.
Another thing I found out from a phone call to the co. is not to drop the temp. more than 3 or 4 degrees in a day as it will take a long time for the house to heat back up. If you need to do more of a temp. swing than that, then get a programmable thermostat and have it programmed to the temp you want 45 min before you come home.
BTW I also noticed our basement is colder because the boiler does not hold any heat, so if you're relying on heat from your boiler to take the chill out of your basement you better put a zone down there. Just so you know the system comes ready to install up to 4 zones plus your hot water zone, just cap off the zones you don't need & add zones later as you need them.
Other things I like... it's VERY quiet, we have a movie theatre for the kids in our basement as well as my high end stereo (I'm into Lp's if that gives you any hint) and it's so nice not hearing that darn burner anymore!
I had the optional air intake from outside, this helps in an older home as it doesn't suck in cold air thru cracks in the house to feed air to the burner as well as making it quieter.
And just so you know, I also got the chimney (stainless steel) liner thru Energy Kinetics, they make a very well made liner & cap, much nicer than the ones on line or even from my local tin shop and the cost was about the same. I got this because I noticed soot was showing on the joints of the cement blocks...so I knew there was a co2 leak somewhere.
One of the things that the system 2000 doesn't have is the air vent on the exhaust end of the system. It always used to bother me that to see that big 6" round opening with a little thin gauge metal flapper door sucking out my heated air up the chimney.
I also should mention that I like the control board, it's really nice to see what's happening with the system, like which zone(s) are calling for heat. It's also neat to see the circulator light on after the burner goes off...getting every last bit of heat out of the boiler into my house!
I would also check into any state & federal rebates. I got a CT state rebate of $500...it was a pain to fill out & took 2 months to get...but hey $500...it was worth it. I just heard from the EK that as of right now the System 2000 doesn't qualify for a $1500 rebate, the federal guidelines for boilers are WAY out of date. All the ways this system saves heat & oil as I said above, are not even considered in the federal guidelines...what a joke! To tell you the truth, I'll make up that money in less than a year.
So, what would I change? as I said at the beginning I have acid water and I wish I could have gotten all brass fittings & tubing and no copper for all of the domestic hot water lines, connections & heat exchanger, but that's all that I can think of...maybe a little better quality control on the hot water board...being picky here...it could have been damaged during shipping or when installed.
Well...I told you it was going to be long and I hope it helps you make your decision... to me it's a no brainer once you know all the facts...and as a friend of mine always says... that's my story and I'm stickn' to it...good luck!
 
  #7  
Old 03-06-09, 08:13 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 198
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
EK DOES sell the system with an LP-fired burner. The package includes a gas protection kit that monitors for CO and combustible gases. It will close the gas valve if unsafe levels are detected.
 
  #8  
Old 03-06-09, 05:20 PM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,928
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ek & lp

I know they NOW sell their boilers set up for LP but that is a relatively recent change is it not? As I recall, about 10(?) years ago they didn't want their boilers fired on LP. I wish all manufacturers would use such safety devices & not just for LP.
 
  #9  
Old 03-08-09, 07:37 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NH
Posts: 22
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I had a System 2000 EK-1 installed in Dec 2007. This replaced a 21 year old Burnham with a tankless coil. The EK-1 included the System 2000 40 gallon hot water tank and the plate heat exchanger. I went from using 1200 gallons of oil a year to 800 gallons for the first year of the EK-1. I live in NH so the heating season is pretty long. I have 4 heating zones (first floor, second floor, finished room in basement, large room over garage). The system has been great so far. Its very quite and the hot water is a great improvement over the tankless. The installer was the same company that had been servicing my Burnham and they are 5 miles away. Allways had a great relationship with them.
 
  #10  
Old 03-09-09, 08:22 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 198
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
LP burner

EK started selling LP systems for inside installation about 6 years ago. Prior to that it was only available on the outside systems. Installation of the gas protection kit with LP inside is a must. It's an excellent idea with NG as well since it also monitors for unsafe levels of CO.
 
  #11  
Old 03-10-09, 07:24 AM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,928
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks Heatpro

I'll have to look into that gas protection kit. It sounds like a really good safety feature. What is it & how does it work?
 
  #12  
Old 03-10-09, 07:33 AM
KField's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 3,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Rick,
It is a line voltage powered sensor that detects raw gas and closes a solenoid powered gas valve when it is detected. The valve must be opened manually after tripping. I have a few installed and never had a nuisance trip. Never had a real trip either but you can test it to be sure it is working. It offers additional peace of mind. I got a call yesterday about a house that was under construction. The buyer can't get in but smelled raw propane coming out of the PVC furnace vent. No intake pipe so it must have not been sealed combustion. I told him to turn the propane off at the tank and call the builder., I don't know how it ended but I didn't see anything on the news so I assume it is all good.
Hope all is well with you.

Ken
 
  #13  
Old 03-10-09, 11:05 AM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,444
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I have no problem with EK. When I was with the oil company we installed about two dozen or so and had virtually no problems with them.
With that said they do not corner the market on fuel savings. Any boiler properly sized is going to give good results today. It comes from lower fuel inputs, lower water volumes, better heat transfer and more efficient oil burners. Even the installation of the near boiler piping can help save fuel. If the old system has a domestic hot water coil and the new one does not, (as none should today) that is also a big fuel saver.
If a new boiler today does not save at least 20% from the 25+ year old dinosaur of yesterday there is a problem. I have seen savings of up to 60%. This was an old coal converted boiler of about 350k and the new boiler was 125k.
 
  #14  
Old 11-09-09, 03:07 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: US
Posts: 25
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
My Weil-McLain WTGO-4 developed a crack in the side of the second section this month. I had my oil company sales guy out today and he quoted me a replacement for both a Burnham V8H3 and a System 2000 with the 40 gallon HW tank. Burnham quote was $4995 and the EK was $8485.

I can buy a new WTGO-3 (the -4 is actually too big for my installation) for around $1900 and install it myself. The two things keeping me from doing this right now is first, if there's a problem with the new Weil-McLain like a leak or whatever once I put it in I'll probably play hell getting a new one. Second, I would love to cut down on my oil usage.

Now, all this would depend on how much I would really save with the EK. If I'm not saving enough to justify the added cost I see no benefit. If I have to replace it before it pays for itself I lose.

I've also considered the new WGO-3 along with an indirect water heater, which I'm told would also significantly lower my oil usage and just may be more bang for the buck. That I could do myself for probably around $3500.

As much as that EK temps me, something inside keeps telling me that it's like buying a hybrid car. Great for the tree huggers in principle, but not much in the way of savings when you factor in the initial investment.
 
  #15  
Old 12-28-09, 06:35 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: CT.
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Energy Kinetics system 2000 review update

Well it's been a year & 4 months with my Energy Kinetics system 2000, so I thought I'd do an update on my LONG first review.
I first want to say I'm very happy with the boiler, it's been great for both heat & hot water & quietness. As far as oil savings, absolutely wonderful! I saved 260 gallons of oil in one year! It actually would have been much more, as it was computed with just simple math over an exact years time, the K factor & other things were not included in the number. When I talked to my oil guy he was very impressed as the winter before was very mild in CT so he figured it was closer to 300-325 gallons saved if the winter's were the same. I also must say we are taking much longer showers now, and I now keep the heat at 68-70 rather than 66, and I also am heating part of the basement...so the savings would be more than that! I just went from Sept3 09 to Dec. 29 and only used 187 gal. of oil in 4 months, I usually get 2, 250 gallon deliveries in that time!
 
  #16  
Old 12-28-09, 12:31 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: US
Posts: 25
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lrlvideo View Post
Well it's been a year & 4 months with my Energy Kinetics system 2000, so I thought I'd do an update on my LONG first review.
What was the total investment?
 
  #17  
Old 12-28-09, 12:48 PM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,444
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I don't want to take anything away from the installation or brand but this is common with most any properly sized and installed new products. We say here that a good quality contractor that sizes properly and does a quality install is where to start. The product is second. We see these results with about any product. Most products today are within a point or two of the same efficiency but that is secondary to installation and sizing.
Congrats on the fuel savings. Good job.
 
  #18  
Old 12-28-09, 06:09 PM
KField's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 3,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
As long as you are talking about a boiler that does not have a domestic hot water coil. Because the AFUE will look good but since it does NOT take the inefficiency of hot water production in non-heating months into account, the true efficiency will be very disappointing in the summer.

Close to the same results could be had with other equipment too and the price would be very similar after using a 40 gallon indirect water heater and any low mass boiler.

Glad to hear it is working out for you. It probably makes all the EK bashing threads seem a little funny if you read them now.

Ken
 
  #19  
Old 12-30-09, 02:16 AM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fairbanks Alaska
Posts: 92
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I was a dealer for EK. I personally and single handedly introduced them to Alaska over 20 years ago. They are very popular here. Unfortunately, after I quit selling them, they have had a lot of fly-by-night, incompetent and dishonest installers. The factory rep for Alaska is a nefarious character which is why I quit selling them. Nevertheless, I never had a problem with the product.
Fortunately a few of the dealers here are honest and competent. Make sure your dealer is good, because any problems I have seen with these were caused by improper installation or maintenance.

The one I put in my house and it is almost 25 years old and not showing any sign of failing.

Since I am not now a dealer, I install Burnham and recently Buderus and Viessmann boilers. I still think EK is probably more efficient or at least as efficient as any.
They are a US family business, made in the USA and are very good people.

I would not hesitate to buy one again if I were the installer
 
  #20  
Old 12-30-09, 02:27 AM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fairbanks Alaska
Posts: 92
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The EK used a "side arm" domestic hot water exchanger, a flat plate exchanger which I still have on mine. I never had a problem except needing occasional cleaning, but some water in some areas has been a big problem for these.
For that reason, EK has added the choice of an indirect domestic hw tank on a zone. I have been putting indirect on Burnham, Buderus etc and prefer that method now.

I cannot say which dhw system would be the most efficient, but the indirect is more foolproof. The exchanger requires a bronze or stainless steel circ pump to move the domestic water from you storage tank to the coil and back into the storage tank.
The indirect is simply another zone pumped by the main circ. I use zone valves and one circ pump.
If I am still living when my finally EK wears out, I will install an indirect dhw system instead next time.
 
  #21  
Old 12-30-09, 01:41 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fairbanks Alaska
Posts: 92
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
You should ask: "what are the problems caused by improper installation and/or operation?

The EK system is a cold start boiler inspired by the hot air furnace which does not maintain heat when there is no thermostat call.
To do this with a boiler it must be light weight and low water content, aka "low mass" boiler.
Pressure vessel steel was chosen for boiler because it is strong, malleable, and durable. It is all welded with no sections or gaskets. Basically a solid steel box welded and rolled in a circle like this: @.
Steel is the most common metal for pipelines, refineries and commercial, industrial pipefitting and heating systems. It is not brittle and heavy like cast iron. Also it does not have sections with gaskets like the traditional heavy cast iron boilers. Some people try to make these into modulating temp or even cool start boilers but they were not designed for this. They can crack from sudden temp changes and the sections/gaskets can develop leaks. If you choose to go with cast, use one that was designed for modulating, such as the popular triple pass, Buderus and Burnham MPO.

Condensation:
A steel boiler must avoid condensation that will cause rust and corrosion. With only 2.5 gal water, the boiler was designed to go from standby at room temp up to operating temp, ie above condensing range quickly. The system 2000 does this in 1.5 min to 2 min. It then stays hot as long as there is a thermostat call.
Some installers who don't understand this have allowed the boiler to receive cold return water and run in the condensing range.
The technique for avoiding this is common practice with all types of boilers. For example, Buderus modulating boilers request that they be installed with a mechanical boiler bypass to control the boiler return temp. There are also various very common methods for controlling radiant floors.
There are numerous common practice ways to control boiler temp. It is not rocket surgery.

Corrosion:
...is the 2d thing that a steel boiler needs to avoid. I just installed a new Burnham MPO cast iron modulating boiler and noticed corrosion on some old parts, eg extrol tank. I tested the PH and found it to be off the scale on the acidic end. I had put a brass cap on a hose bib and a hole rusted through it within a month.
You don't want corrosion on any system even if the boiler itself is made of more resistant metals. Another so called "no brainer". It is just that with a steel boiler, it won't just be the surrounding parts ruined, but also the boiler itself.

I have "cloned" the EK using other low mass steel boilers set up the same way but with different controls.
 
  #22  
Old 12-31-09, 08:00 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 198
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
Low ph

EK started shipping a quart of 8-way boiler treatment with every system. It helps keep the system clean and also raises the system ph. You won't see it as standard in AK (too cold and it freezes) but it can be ordered. Highly recommended especially if there's antifreeze involved.
 
  #23  
Old 05-01-12, 02:54 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have had a system 2000 installed in y home for 5 years plus. We have had nothing but trouble with the unit. We have asked the installing dealer (the only person who can work on the bloody thing) to get some sort of factory support. After the first year of problematic installation they had the territory rep to our home. I found him to be arrogant and distasteful. We only wanted to get some sort of extended warranty from the factory to support our ongoing parts problem. Water sensors, pump, zone valves and finally the ignition something on the burner. I have had it with this thing, anybody want a slighlty used system 2000? I got one cheap!!
 
  #24  
Old 05-01-12, 02:58 PM
KField's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 3,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm interested

Let me know where you are located as I may also be able to help in other ways but it would depend on the distance between us. I am in Easton, pa. Maybe you could pm me with more info.

Ken
 
  #25  
Old 05-01-12, 05:23 PM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,928
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Mr. Field!!!! Where have you been hiding? Long time, no Ken.
 
  #26  
Old 05-01-12, 05:27 PM
KField's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 3,245
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Grady

Miss you Grady. Too many irons in the fire. DIY
needs a smartphone app.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes