Replacing honeywell zone valve motor - morphed into add on wood boiler

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  #1  
Old 02-02-06, 10:26 PM
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Question Replacing honeywell zone valve motor - morphed into add on wood boiler

Hi, my house have 6 zone and one of the Honeywell zone valve seem not to be working. I was suggested by the plumber that i have to options 1 is the replace the motor which is cheaper and another is the replace the whole valve and he is recommending White Rogers zone valve.


I was wondering if I were to purchase the honeywell zone valve motor can I DIY and what is the procedure?

Is White Rogers zone valve more reliable than Honeywell?


Please advice.
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-21-10 at 07:50 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-03-06, 03:36 PM
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Stay with the honeywell. The motor should cost about $30 and be easy as pie to change. One screw holds it in and when the screw is removed, the motor turns a slight amount and comes right out. Lock the valve in the open position before removing the motor.

Ken
 
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Old 02-03-06, 07:02 PM
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Hi Ken

The Honeywell valve has 2 red and 2 yellow wire do i need to remove those before i remove the motor?

The plumber mention to me that zone valve usually have life time to 10 to 15 years is there any truth to that in your experience. Mine is about 16 years old.

Also how do i test if the zone valve is really working ? I saw the plumber put tester showing 24v, during thermostat not calling for heat. And according to him when the thermostat is calling for heat the voltage of the zone valve should drop to 5v or less? If it is still around 20 to 24v when thermostat is on then zone valve is not functioning. Please advice if that is the case that the zone valve motor is bad.


thanks
 
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Old 02-04-06, 04:33 AM
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Only the wires that go to the motor need to be disconnected. The other 2 can stay connected. They are for the end switch that starts the circulator and burner. Maybe we should back up and diagnose this first. You didn't seem unsure of the problem in your first post but sounded a little confused in your second. The zone valve gets 24 volts from the thermostat circuit when it needs to open and start the heat flowing. When the thermostat is satisfied, the 24 volts turns off and the valve closes by an internal spring. It is a very simple operation. When a motor fails, the power gets to the motor but it won't turn. Sometimes there is a problem with the end switch and even though the valve is open, the pump and burner won't start because the switch isn't working. Maybe you should check into more of these possibilities and post back.

Ken
 
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Old 02-04-06, 12:11 PM
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Sorry Ken I am just a newbie trying to save some money because the plumber quote me $300 cad to replace the motor since he diagnose that the motor is not working. (note the motor feel hot when i touch it)

I check the zone valve it is
Honeywell V8043G1018 24V ~ 50-60 Hz, 6w 32 amps 60 Hz
The motor is 8951 Synchron

Now the situation is as follows ... when the thermostat call for heat, i can hear the zone valve open (i can move the override switch easily to the other side without resistant). Now my problem is it does not send enough voltage to start the boiler. It attempt several time and failed.

You point out that "sometimes there is a problem with the end switch and even though the valve is open, the pump and burner won't start because the switch isn't working. "..... ok could my situation be the problem of end switch instead of the motor? How do i verified ... and if necessary how to replace the end switch?

wire connection --- 2 red from zone valve to boiler
1 yellow from zone valve to thermostat black wire
1 yellow from zone valve to 24v transformer black wire
transformer white is connected to thermostat white

Please advice me more and thank you for you patience.
 
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Old 02-04-06, 01:58 PM
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Your problem is not the motor. I would suggest changing the whole powerhead. The end switch is not really a repairable part and it is just as easy to replace the head and probably easier to find. It only requires the removal of 2 screws and does not open the system. Some older valves did not have replaceable heads but anything in the last 20 years is probably OK.

Ken
 
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Old 02-07-06, 05:30 PM
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Thank you Ken

Replacing the powerhead did the job : )
 
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Old 02-08-06, 06:53 PM
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Good good.

Ken
 
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Old 11-03-10, 06:58 PM
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I have the same valve in our house we need to replace it about every 2 years. The issue is that it will not turn off the flow into floor. The heat source is our hot water heater that supplies the house. After replacing the valvle do I have to bleed the system? Or will any air that enters the system just work it's way out through the taps throughout the house? Also, any ideas on why the valve keeps on failing, we've had the house for 7 years and this is the 3rd valve.
 
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Old 11-03-10, 07:21 PM
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Mountain, have you 'dissected' the old valves to try and determine 'root cause' of the failure? You say it won't shut off... do you mean that the motor tries to close the valve and it can't?

I guess what I'm driving at here is if the problem is that the VALVE BODY, or the POWER HEAD is failing?

I am not a fan of using potable water from a water heater to heat a home, and the fact that it's 'fresh' water which contains tons of dissolved oxygen and minerals might have a strong relationship to the failure mode.

Can you show us a pic of the installation? Set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload pics there, come back here and drop a link to your album.
 
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Old 11-30-10, 08:37 AM
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Can someone explain this: I can't

I have a three zone residential boiler set-up that uses Honeywell V8043 zone valves. One zone stopped heating the other day so I started looking at it from the thermostat forward. I made some mistakes because I assumed the wire ran directly to the powerhead. Now I have visually checked and see that the wire goes to one of the other valves no to the zone in question. The system has been working fine for years. Is the voltage somehow looped in and out of the other valves in the process of making things work? I did run a test wire from the thermostat directly to the power head and things seemed to work fine except I couldn't seem to get any water circulation (which isn't all that fine I guess). Thanks
 
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Old 11-30-10, 03:36 PM
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Here is a basic diagram that shows how two 8043's would be connected:



If you had more valves, they would just be added the same way as these two.

I think the answer to the question is YES, the 24VAC could be 'daisy chained' from one valve to the next. There are many ways to PHYSICALLY run the wires, that all result in the same ELECTRICAL arrangement.

For example: In this diagram, bottom wire on the 24VAC side of the transformer is shown going from one valve to the next. It COULD be wired with individual wires each going back to the transformer. Whatever is easiest and neatest to do in a given situation is the best way.

Some Honeywell valves (the V8043F models) have screw terminals to connect the wiring to. Others (the V8043E models) have two yellow wires, and two red wires coming out of the valve. The YELLOW wires go to the MOTOR, and the RED wires go to the ENDSWITCH.

Here's what you need to look at: When a thermostat calls for heat, it will switch on and complete the 24VAC circuit and send that voltage to the MOTOR in the valve. The motor should run. You should hear it. Have a helper turn up the thermostat while you listen for the motor in the valve to run.

There is also a MANUAL OPEN lever on one end of the valve. When the valve is OPEN, this lever will be 'floppy' and loose when you move it... you will feel no resistance.

When the valve is CLOSED, and you operate that lever, you will feel some resistance, and you will hear the gears 'whirring' inside as you move it from AUTO to MAN.

OK, next, looking at the diagram, there are wires coming out that are paralleled together on all the valves, and these wires go to the boiler control.

The ENDSWITCH is a small switch inside the valve head that MAKES CONTACT when the valve OPENS.

There is NO electrical connection between the yellow wires and the red wires inside the valve. It is two separate circuits. A good way to describe what happens is that the Thermostat TELLS the zone valve to open. It doesn't talk directly to the boiler. When the valve opens, it tells the boiler to run... it passes the message on through the zone valve.

Make sense so far? Good...

There are two basic ways that a zone valve can fail.

1. The MOTOR can fail. In this case (assuming the problem is not the transformer, wiring, or thermostat), you won't hear the motor run, and the auto/man lever will have some resistance to pushing.

2. The ENDSWITCH can fail. In this case, the valve WILL open, but it will not pass the call on to the boiler and it won't fire, and the circ won't run.

That's the 'skinny' on how they work... should help you troubleshoot.

If ONE zone has stopped working, you can rule out the transformer being bad.

It could be, but most likely is NOT the thermostat. (DO check the BATTERIES if it has them)

It could be a loose connection in the wiring, check all the connections for clean and tight.

In my experience, it is USUALLY the ENDSWITCH not making contact and calling the boiler to fire. Our friend Grady might say it's usually the MOTOR though...
 
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Old 12-08-10, 10:50 PM
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Thumbs up NJ Trooper

Thanks for your response. With your help I have a better understanding of the operation of the system. Two out of three of my loops are working fine. I have to get another power head tomorrow.

I still would like to understand better how to troubleshoot the zone valve though. How can its various functions be tested? I get that the T stat just puts a short on the valve to operate the motor and the pump? That also sends voltage to the pump thru the TR terminal... right? I do understand that when the valve is open the lever is loose and when not it is closed. What I the best way to tell that the motor is dead, or the pump isn't getting voltage because the end switch is bad.

Sorry, I'm electrically challenged as you can tell.

Thank you though because now I have a much better idea of what is going on so that the next time I will be able to shed that blind squirrel mantel.

dave
 
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Old 12-09-10, 06:32 AM
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Hi Dave,

Can't answer at length at the moment, I will add to this later this evening, but wanted to touch base with ya and find out the make/model of your boiler.

The thermostat or zone valve don't DIRECTLY control the pump. The pump would usually be wired into a device on your boiler that is called an AQUASTAT.

When the zone valves open, and the endswitch makes contact, it sends a call to the AQUASTAT control on the boiler. It is the aquastat in turn that then controls both the burner and the circulator.

This is the USUAL set up, all systems differ, and yours may.

More later...
 
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Old 12-09-10, 06:18 PM
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NJ Trooper,

I have a Slant Fin L-30 boiler that burns oil.

Today I replaced the zone valve causing problems. Now the zone functions properly with one exception. Now the TS seems to be causing problems. I added a wire to short the circuit to enable the zone. The strange thing is that it runs for a while and brings up heat but then it shuts off. Now it doesn't get ungodly hot. Just very warm. I can change the TS but feel like there still might be something going on I don't understand. I would thing with the TS short is should run almost constantly. Thanks. Dave
 
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Old 12-09-10, 07:21 PM
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Dave, when you say 'it shuts off', do you mean that the BURNER shuts off ?

When this happens, does the CIRCULATOR PUMP continue to run?

In that AQUASTAT which I mentioned earlier, there is what is called a HIGH LIMIT control. That control measures the water temperature in the boiler and will shut off the BURNER if the water reaches that temperature. It is USUALLY set at 180F.

If the thermostat is still calling for heat when this happens, the CIRCULATOR will continue to run and pump the hot water in the boiler to the zone.

Can you tell us what the TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE gauge on the boiler is reading when 'it shuts off' ?
 
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Old 12-09-10, 07:46 PM
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Thanks. Yes, I will study this stuff during the day tomorrow and post it afterward. How do I tell if the circulator continues to run. Can I check voltage in the Aquastat? The circulator is a Taco and runs hot and quiet so the hands are tough. Maybe a stethescope?

later, dave
 
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Old 12-10-10, 05:52 AM
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Yes, stethoscope... sorta...

Place the handle end of a long screwdriver in your ear, and the pointy end on the circ... you should be able to hear it running.
 
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Old 12-19-10, 11:48 AM
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I am also having an end switch issue I think. I have 2 zones one works fine one will occasionally call for circulation but not consistently so i swapped motors and have the same issue, so I'm thinking it's the end switch, I have erie zone valves with the number vt2343g13a02a0f on them. if i can get a replacement power head (where?) can i replace it without draining the system.
 
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Old 12-20-10, 07:32 PM
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NJ Trooper: Sorry I got lost recently but last week my wife dragged me out shopping and other holiday type stuff. I have everything working now after replacing a second zone valve. I also found a broken TS wire which added to the problem.

I plan to copy all these comments and also make some notes on how water flow sounds when the boiling is working properly so when it does go down I may be able to solve problems more quickly... things such as temps, sound of water rushing thru the circulator, etc.

I wanted to thank you again for your help getting me thru this but I wanted to run something by you before I leave. Our home is a traditional 4 bdrm colonial (but only 15 years old) on a crawl with an attached garage of almost 1000 sq ft. I have been wondering for some time how difficult it would be to put an airtight in the garage that could heat the house. I have a place to put it but would have to "pex" to the boiler. I would have a separate external chimney which wouldn't be an extraordinary problem. My question is how difficult do you think it would be to switch the system so that hot water from the stove would tell the boiler to shut off and to supply hot water to the entire system when available from the stove? Be curious as to what you might say about this. Have a very Merry Christmas. Thanks.

dave
 
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Old 12-20-10, 08:09 PM
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Hi Dave, no problem... as you can probably tell, I seem to always be here!

A wood stove addition is 'do-able', but there is a pretty substantial learning curve. There's a lot to consider, and a lot depends on the actual wood stove. (when you said 'airtight', you did mean a wood burning boiler appliance, yes?)
 
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Old 12-20-10, 08:55 PM
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Maybe a wood burning boiler is what I mean. I need an airtight wood burner combined with a tank and a coil I would think. I wouldn't want to replace my oil burner... just help it out. To do this one would have to spend money on a good saw, splitter... etc. Thanks.

dave
 
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Old 12-21-10, 03:37 PM
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Hi Dave,
Although not airtight I am doing similar.

Search for "System 2000 with wood stove" in this forum for my latest design.
Trooper helped me out on this.

Waiting for a TurboMax 65 storage tank to arrive next week so I can plumb the wood stove back in for the rest of the winter.

I have been running a setup for the last 5+ years...and apparently made some prior mistakes (like using the boiler as my storage tank...don't do that!)...but now I am doing it the way I have always wanted to do it since I can afford it..the right way...and it also seems to be my hobby these days.
 
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Old 12-21-10, 04:32 PM
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Hi Tom,

I've just started to look into this idea a little. It's a shame to have hwbbh and pay for oil if you can help it. I have the location for a chimney and a space in a large garage to place the airtight. Why is it you chose not to use an airtight? I also hear the clock is ticking on systems as new regulations require wood gasification units that should be dramatically higher in price with 2011 right around the corner. Does your storage tank have a coil in it circulating water thru the boiler waiting for a demand call? I have to figure out how to expand your prints. Thanks. dave
 
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Old 12-21-10, 04:33 PM
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This little article although not exactly what you guys are thinking of (where ya gonna get, or place a 500 gallon tank?) has some very good points to understand when burning wood as an alternate source.

Gasification Rectification - The Glitch and The Fix - Radiant and Hydronics
 
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Old 12-21-10, 06:50 PM
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Hi Dave,
I read Trooper's article and will comment thru out my reply. It's a long one...

I got a $75 wood stove (practically free!) years ago that has pipes in the inside side walls, going thru the top of the stove to a small built-in water holding tank on the top of the wood stove. It is in my basement, with a double walled SS pipe running out the basement window and up the side of my dining room wall (single level on this end of the house, I paid for that!).

The first year after installing it, I did not plumb in the water lines, but just burned it as a regular old wood stove. My son's bedroom on the other end of the house (above the garage) was ice cold since the heat would not travel that far. So I installed a vent above the rec room drop ceiling from the basement to his room with a fan...still too cold in there.

The following year, I plumbed the stove plumbing into the boiler and heated the boiler water to 180F, then fired the house circulator to distribute the heat. (Yes, I installed a new pressure relief valve on the wood stove tank) This system ran fine for quite a number of years..until the boiler pressure vessel started to weep, thus blowing steam up the boiler chimney each time the boiler fired. This is bad as the flue pipe basically fell apart and degraded the internal boiler firewall. Circulating the boiler water without monitoring the return water temp into the boiler was a bad thing, resulting in the pressure vessel rotting away due to condensation because the boiler itself was not hot. I think this is why NJ Trooper referred us to the article. DON'T DO THIS or you will most likely have a similar BAD result.:NO NO NO:
I have come to the conculsion that I screwed up my own heater
(but I did save tons of money over the years!)
I think I used less than 300 gallons of oil last year (12 months) for heat and hot water.
It has been a learning process...and a hobby.

New EK System 2000 and SS flue liner installed on 12/10.

Fast forward to the latest and greatest design. I am in the process to doing more detailed mechanical and electrical schematics until the remaining parts arrive. If you are interested, I will post the more detailed drawings/schematics as I update them. They include expansion tanks, air vents and part numbers.

The new design parallels my wood stove and the boiler. If the boiler is circulating heat thru the house, the zone monitor relay in my system temporarily disables my system from doing the same.

The new design is much more efficient. I will be using a Grundfos Alpha circulator to circulate water from the wood stove to the REVERSE indirect storage tank only, or from the wood stove to the baseboard and thru the reverse indirect storage tank. The Alpha circulator is a smart circulator which monitors its' own pressure and automatically adjusts as needed, so when my system changes the direction of the 3-way valve, the pump should auto adapt to the new load (including the baseboard run). This differs from the old way I was doing things, constantly operating a 60 watt pump, then firing the house circulator. Now only the one circulator will be running.

Note the REVERSE indirect tank mentioned above. ErgoMax in NJ or Thermo2000 in Canada are 2 choices that I have found (ordered the Thremo2000 TurboMax65 at PexSupply.com over the weekend). This is where the boiler water (or wood stove water) is the main volume in the tank, and a (safe) copper coil runs thru the water volume used for DHW. Regular tanks are either stainless or require an anode rod to avoid internal corrosion. In winter when I will be burning wood, the well water passes thru the first tank and pre-warms the water before entering the second 40 gallon tank when opening the hot water tap. This also reduces the need for the boiler to heat the indirect tank. In summer, when the stove is not operating, the water in the tank should help (ever so slightly) pre-warm the incoming water before reaching the 40 gallon tank.

The reverse indirect storage tank will receive the cold baseboard return water and take the "thermal shock" that will result. It will also be used as a small buffer (72 gallons, not 500 gallons!) if I do not need heat in the house. Of course, I have controls to do a "heat dump" into the baseboard if the system gets too hot and the house is not calling for heat. Yet another reference to NJ Trooper's article.

I am also working on a thermoelectric generator that mounts to both sides the the wood stove water tank. I will be charging a 12V battery, then running the system from battery (and inverter) on a power failure. (Yet another reference to NJ Trooper's article) My long-term hope is the generator will provide enough power so that when I get the fire going, the generator automatically takes over and self-powers my wood stove system...take that PECO energy deregulation! (probably a pipe dream...but hey, I'm allowed to dream)
 
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Old 12-21-10, 07:47 PM
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Good write Thomas!

I will be especially interested in the outcome of the TEG ! That is so cool as to cause me to be almost speechless... a very rare occurence!
 
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Old 12-22-10, 05:57 PM
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Why Thank you...
You called it a "TEG", so does that mean you are familiar with the Peltier effect? If so, you really are a Jack-of-all-trades!

I have been building this slowly over the years. Just ordered the final parts (thermal gap pads) to create my 21" x3.5" heatsink sections for both sides of the tank, each containing 24 1" x1" TE devices.

It will be cool, regardless of if it can completely power the entire system. I just like tinkering...and my wife puts up with it!
 
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Old 12-23-10, 04:17 PM
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I've been called a "Renaissance Man" from time to time!

Sure, I know about the Peltier Effect...

You will of course be charging batteries, correct?

Yes, this is way off topic, but cutting edge stuff... and it CAN be used to self power boiler controls!
 
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Old 12-23-10, 04:36 PM
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Battery - one small 12V tractor battery (borrowed from my riding mower in winter) will do as a buffer.

Of course a microprocessor will be monitoring the charge current and battery voltage, and with a known system load current, I should be able to determine when to throw a relay to divert system power from the electric company to the inverter/battery. It's all flowcharted out, just need to complete the processor firmware.
ANy extra power will start lighting lightbulbs in the basement..but I don't think I'll get that much extra power.

I am currently looking to reduce power draw from the controls...a bit of thinking now will pay off later. A set/reset relay can enable and lock the control on with only momentary power draw vs a 120VAC coil relay that needs power applied all the time.
The Alpha pump helps the most in power conservation.
Next to find a way to open the air damper and keep it open with very little power consumption, but still allow it to close if power is removed.
The current air damper draws about 20W.
 
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Old 12-28-10, 09:54 AM
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I am uncertain of the location of the end switch. Is it located over the top of the motor where the red wires connect to a mircoswitch or elsewhere.
 
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Old 12-28-10, 02:29 PM
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Steel, you are going to have to give us a whole lot more info... I have no idea what you are talking about... I mean, I know what an endswitch is, but what are you referring to?

I may end up moving this to it's own thread because it doesn't seem related to this discussion at all?
 
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Old 01-05-11, 07:28 AM
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zone valve questions/comments

Above the moderator wrote that there were two basic failure modes for zone valves. (1)The motor fails. (2)The end switch fails. This seems to imply that the valve itself doesn't fail, just the peripheral stuff. These things can be over ridden so that you can get heat. IF the motor fails you can manually overide the motor (at least the honeywell valve that I have) by moving the little lever into the "Man. Open" position and you will get heat. If the switch fails you can remove the switch from the circuit by disconnecting the two red wires from the switch and connecting them together by hand. This will keep heat to your zone, but you'll have to turn it on and off by hand (disconnecting the wires and moving the lever out of the man. open position).
There is a 3rd failure mode which in my (limited) experience is very common; the valve itself fails. Then there is no resistance when you push the manual lever. As far as I know, in this case the entire valve must be replaced. I recently had a plumber replace a zone valve and he commented that my valves were in backwards. They'd been that way since I bought the house 15 years ago. I've had a fair number of zone valves fail over the years, although until recently none had failed for maybe 8 years. There is an arrow on the valves indicating the direction that the water is supposed to flow through the valves. I'm thinking that having the valves in backwards shortened their life time? If you replace a valve yourself read the instructions! They will tell you to put the valve in the "man. open" position while you're sweating it in. This is to keep the valve from being damaged by the heat from the torch. If you have more than one valve does it make sense to put any that are nearby the valve being replaced into the "man. open" position as well in case the torch heats those valves some? I would love to see the insides of a Honeywell zone valve. Are there pictures available somewhere?
 
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Old 01-05-11, 03:08 PM
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Hi John, failure of the valve body is not nearly as common as it might seem. The endswitch and motor are by far the more likely items to fail.

Then there is no resistance when you push the manual lever.
How do you know that's a failure of the valve body itself? It could also be a failure in the power head... jammed gears holding it open... OR, if the valve IS open by COMMAND from the thermostat, that lever will move FREELY, as you describe.

I'm thinking that having the valves in backwards shortened their life time?
Maybe... these valves have a rubber ball inside them. When the valve closes the rubber ball is pushed up against the water opening.

When installing one can overheat the valve and damage the ball, or the seals at the 'stem' can be damaged. There's lots of tricks that can be used in order to prevent damage to valves when soldering... you could wrap a wet rag around the valve body... when you heat the parts, be careful where you apply the heat... put it on the entering pipe first... when that gets hot enough to take the solder only then play the flame back on the valve body a bit... the solder will 'wick' down the hot pipe into the joint. Always use the proper torch... if you use a pi55 weak torch, you will have to heat and heat and heat ... the longer you are on the part with the torch, the longer the heat has time to migrate to the sensitive parts of the valve... it seems counter-intuitive, but a HOTTER torch is what you want... get in, get hot, get soldered, and GET OUT! as fast as possible.

I would love to see the insides of a Honeywell zone valve. Are there pictures available somewhere?
Picture a pinball machine... a paddle and a ball, and you got the basic idea. I don't know of any pics anywhere... but you must still have one that was replaced laying around? Dissect it!
 
  #35  
Old 01-16-11, 08:29 AM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: usa
Posts: 2
Zone valve failure

Hi all I'm new to this forum but not zone valve failure!
I Have 7 zones that I built and one by one they are failing for the second and third time. I have diagnoised them at nausium, and consistently found that with sparco, now honeywell, that the end switch is destroyed by the high temp. They are intermittent at times. I have bought new micro switches and replaced them for only 6 dollars but it is not simple to replace the switch.
Your entire boiler system is very simple to understand and diagnoise you have to break it down and create a simple diagram of your system. An inexpensive multimeter and diagnostic techniques can help you to identify and repair your system especially that first cold winter night when you want it the most!
 
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