boiler soot, do I need to replace?


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Old 09-13-06, 07:54 AM
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Unhappy boiler soot, do I need to replace?

We recently purchased our first home and the Weil McClain hot water boiler which is about 16 years old. It was supposed to be serviced before we moved in last Febrauary by the prior owner, but apparently wasn't. We had it serviced this week, as part of a first year free service, and according to our oil service guy he would be suprised if it was serviced in the last 5 years. He first informed my wife we needed a new fire box because it was either missing or melted, $400. He cleaned soot from between the cast iron heating plates and apparently there was soot completely clogging the exhaust duct up to the bend into the chimney he cleaned out. However, he was unable to get the soot from between two of the plates in the bottom-side quarter of the two plates. The other gaps between the case iron plates were all fully cleaned with his hand held soot saw. He then informed my wife we need a whole new boiler ($4500) because he couldn't get that corner cleaned and it wouldn't vent correctly. I know the boiler isn't brand new, but I expected to get 4-6 more years out of it.

Do we need a whole new boiler if the soot can't be cleaned out? I am suspicious he was understandably sick of working on our boiler, especially for a free service call, and gave up. According to my wife he was grumpy from when he first came to the door. His mood didn't improve when our dogs barked at him and he started working on the boiler. Apparently he wasn't working very long with the soot saw 5-10 minutes, but was working with the vacume for a while. I am tempted to get a soot saw and see what I can accomplish with more motivation than he had, then get another profesional in to inspect it and see if we really need a new fire box. Any advice would be great? Sorry this was so long.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 11:29 AM
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Smile Sooted up

First of all what is the model # of the boiler? If it's a 3 section they had sooting problems in the past. Also it does sound like the system hasn't had a proper cleaning in a long time. As for the fire box, you can replace that yourself, it's available as a kit,(under $100), it's a little messy but can be done. Be very careful unbolting the front cover of the boiler(no snaping the studs) You could heat the nuts before you try to turn them. Neverseize them when you put them back.Did the tech with attitude adjust and do an efficiency test on the boiler? What did he come up with? What type of gun is in the boiler Beckett, Carlin, Riello,?? You might be able to clean the soot out of the corner when you take the fron cover to replsce the fire box. Good luck with a little sweat and patience I think you will get it done.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 04:52 PM
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Sooted boiler

Most Weil-McLains did not use an actual fire box. They used a blanket in the bottom of the chamber & a target wall on the back. The boier does not need to be replaced just the servicer. I would certainly place a call to his employer.
If you attempt to replace the blanket & target wall yourself, splitting the front plate nuts with a nut splitter is sometimes the easiest way to avoid wringing off the studs. Usually a good penetrating oil, such as PB Blaster, will do the trick rather than resorting to physical means.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 05:48 PM
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Question sooted up

Here is some more information. The boiler is a Weil-Mclain series 3, size P-466E. It has a beckett Model 707502 burner. The servicer didn't do an efficiency test, because he decided it need to be replaced. I found some info the prior owner left, but no parts list so I can't say for sure if it has a fire box. The sales brochure does say the boiler has a water-backed combustion area with water circulated completely around the firebox. I will try to to get in it this weekend after the bolts have some time to losten up from the oil. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the help and time.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 05:52 PM
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sooted up

My wife just informed me the guy said he could see something in the bottom. I looked and it looks like some sort of blaket. I think the use of the word firebox in the sales borchure may not be used in the technical sense.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 06:00 PM
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P-466e

Don't take this as absolute gospel but as I recall, this series of boilers used a refractory liner in the front panel, a floor blanket, & a target wall.

In using the penetrating oil, give each bolt a good soaking at least twice a day. That PB Blaster stinks to high heaven but it is the best I've ever used.
 
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Old 09-13-06, 06:16 PM
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sooted up

Thanks for all the help. I'll let you know haw things work out when I get into it this weekend. Thanks again.
 
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Old 09-14-06, 09:24 AM
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series 3

Thanks,

I could only find the parts list for the new series 3 Gold WTO which used front and rear refractors and a blanket. My old diagram shows what looks like a blanket, so I am fairly sure you are right about it not having a fire box. My wife knows a plumber from work who works on boilers and is stopping by just to look, but if the refractor walls look good through the inspection port I don't think I will risk the bolts just to find out everything is fine inside. The maintenance manual warned against using any chemicals to clean the soot out, because they will damage the water tight seals between the plates, but it did say we can warm the boiler to 180 then spray a fine mist of water from a garden hose inside to loosen the soot which will then the fall into the combustion chamber. You have to clean it out removing the burner and door. So, you are then back to the bolts. Plus, it also sounds like you create a lot of steam and possible corrosion adding water like that. I guess they assume it will burn off?
 
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Old 09-14-06, 11:14 AM
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Sooted up

I think if you do what Grady said and use a good penetrating oil and some gentle muscle on the nuts they will come right off. When you open the boiler you see the whole chamber and be able to knock the rest of the soot loose. BTW wear a mask the soot is very irritating to the nose and lungs. I can't say I like the water idea although I have heard of it before. I think if you clean it right and then have a GOOD tech come in and set up the gun and do an efficiency test you might be surprised the boiler will be good for a long time (as long as it gets a yearly GOOD cleaning).
 
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Old 09-14-06, 04:06 PM
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Boiler cleaning

I too have heard about the water spray method but never had nerve enough to try it. Weil-McLain's target wall has a lip on the top making it very difficult to properly clean the boiler without destroying that lip.

If you do opt to open the front of the boiler, remove the burner first. It will lighten the load & make the front plate easier to handle.
 
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Old 09-21-06, 05:06 PM
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The oil company offered to send new service men when we called because they didn't believe we needed a new boiler because of some soot. We didn't even tell them that we did not believe their first grumpy service man. Apparently they did not trust him either. They confirmed what our friend said, that we didn't need a new boiler even if we never got the soot out. They couldn't get it out either with a soot saw and speculate that it could be boiler solder put in to patch an old leak.

But everyone agrees that the combustion chamber kit needed to be replaced. So, I started to loosen the bolts off the burner plate to replace the cumbustion chamber. The BP Blaster works great, Grady. Three bolts came off easily, unfortunately, I still ended up snapping one stud. I hardly put any force on it at all, but obviously still too much. I haven't removed the plate yet because the plumber we know is going to show me how to disconnect the oil line. I would do it myself, but don't want to get oil everywhere. How bad is the snapped stud issue? From the plans I saw of the new boiler's you can just replace the bolt, but that may be the new ones, and from your postings, obviously it isn't an easy fix? The boiler still seals tight with three and I won't have any problem getting the door off.
 
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Old 09-21-06, 05:28 PM
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Stud

You my yet get the stud out. After you get the front plate off, get out the PB Blaster & give the stud a good soaking where it goes into the boiler. Get a good grip on the stud with a pair of vise grips & have a go at it. DO NOT wail on it with a hammer. You could crack the boiler. If it just plain won't come out, use a hacksaw to cut it off as close to flush with the boiler as you can. Use a good drill with a chuck that runs true (without wobble) & a small (1/16") sharp bit to drill right straight into the center of the stud. Slowly increase the bit size to whatever is needed to tap new threads for the replacement stud. The hard parts here are: (1) getting & maintaining center of the broken stud and; (2) not drilling too deep.
I have seen, but do not recommend, using high temperature silicone to seal the front plate instead of replacing the stud.
 
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Old 09-21-06, 05:59 PM
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Thank you again

I was worried the stud was welded in and I was going to have to drill and reweld a new one in. I think the bp blaster with the vice grips will get it out. Last resort I will go with the drill.
 
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Old 09-25-06, 09:38 AM
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Talking update

The broken stud came out with the Blaster. I found 7-8 inches of soot and presumably unidentifiable pieces of the rear refractor wall inside the chamber. I was stunned when I opened it, and glad I did. The burner was barely above the soot line. I replaced the stud. The fire chamber kit is ordered ($46) and should be in by Wednesday. Thanks to this site and your help I went from being told I needed to spend $4,500 on a new boiler, to $400 for repairmen to replace the fire chamber kit, to installing the fire chamber myself for $49 for the kit, $5 for BP Blaster, and a little of my time. Plus, I now know a lot more about boiler's and can check up on the yearly service men's work and do a little work myself. Thank you very much! You guys are great!
 
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Old 09-25-06, 06:30 PM
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Thumbs up Viking

Way to go. Sucess stories such as your's make all the time we spend here worth it. I'm not saying the front plate needs to be removed every year but probalby every fourth or fifth year unless you see debris building up in the chamber.
One more little tip: Before you put the front plate back on, give those studs a healthy coat of anti-sieze compound. This can save the broken stud next time.
 
 

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