Need help determining why this system isn't heating as it should in some rooms


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Old 10-11-06, 04:44 PM
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Need help determining why this system isn't heating as it should in some rooms

Hi all, I'm trying to figure out why this heating system is running so badly before I call someone out here for servicing and get overcharged (sorry). I'd like to get an idea as to what the problem could be in hopes of minimzing service costs.

Here's a couple of pics of the system...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/heat1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/heat3.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/heat4.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/heat2.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/heat5.jpg

...there are three things that obviously need attention.

First, the system is using an insane amount of fuel oil. Last winter we were going through about $500 every three weeks. I remember talking to the guy who fills the tanks and he thought we must have a leak or something because we were calling him so frequently.

Secondly, the system is only heating a couple of rooms as it should. There are 4 other rooms that have the heat pipes on the baseboards and the pipes don't get hot enough - you can lay your hand on it and keep it there.

Lastly, the thermostat isn't working properly. No matter how long we run the system the thermostat never gets past the comfort level (about 72 degrees).

Any help would be great as I've bleed the system right at the unit (see third pic) a couple of times and it's changed nothing.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me - the wife and kids would appreciate it even more

edited by kfield for questionable language
 

Last edited by tb40nd; 10-11-06 at 08:37 PM.
  #2  
Old 10-11-06, 05:31 PM
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Not enough heat

I know you are expecting this so I'll get it out of the way first:
With that boiler it's no wonder it's eating you out of house & home. You are going to be lucky to get 75% combustion efficiency with an AFUE of maybe 65% out of it. A new boiler would save you a pile of money. Ok, obligitory speech done. On to your lack of heat.

You very well could have a diverter tee (mono-flo tee) system in which case purging at the boiler will do you no good. You need to open the covers on the baseboard & look for small bleeders at the ends. Mono-flo systems can be tricky to bleed. Start with the section closest to the boiler with the thermostat NOT calling for heat. Bleed each section working from closest to furthest. Then turn the thermostat way up & give the system a few minutes to heat. Re-check the baseboards & bleed again if needed with the circulator on this time. Let me know how things go.
 
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Old 10-11-06, 07:54 PM
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And if Grady says "new boiler" then that's advice to heed.... Looks like one for the recycling bin to me as well.

Do or have done a home heat loss calculation, size the boiler correctly, and find a good contractor installing good equipment. You will make the investment back pretty quickly.

And if it is a monoflow tee heating system, the current configuration of pump on return and expansion tank on the supply makes it even harder to bleed. Friend of mine has the same configuration and it takes several days to get everything bled and heating right.
 
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Old 10-11-06, 08:36 PM
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Grady,

Thanks for the well needed advice - this thing is ancient and we froze our buts off last winter. When you say a new boiler are you speaking of just the unit in the basement or should the whole system be replaced?

Monoflow tee? Nevermind, I'll google it. Also, what does the AFUE stand for?

Lastly, the boiler is in the basement and all the rooms are upstairs of course, so should I just start with the room in closest proximity to the boiler or should I follow the outgoing pipe? I ask this because although there are rooms closer to the boiler the outgoing pipe leaves the boiler and heads to the other side of the house.

Another funny thing is that the warmest room in the house is also the furthest away from the boiler.

Oh yeah, you are right, there are valves at the end of all the pipes in the rooms - I'll start bleeding these (until no bubbles right?) and post back.


xiphias,

Several days!?! Wow! I had better start now b/c we have a couple of weeks tops before we see start seeing the white stuff

As far as the heat loss calculation... no, I have no idea how to do it although while reading different threads before posting today I found this link...

http://www.slantfin.com/he2/#HE2

...not sure what to do with it but plan to download it with my laptop next time I'm in town as we only have dialup here at home (in the sticks) and it's a 171MB file.
 

Last edited by tb40nd; 10-11-06 at 09:42 PM. Reason: removed quote as it's unnecessary to quote the entire post(s)
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Old 10-11-06, 09:56 PM
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Okay, I started bleeding at the room nearest the boiler (not the first room the pipe went to) which is in the kitchen. I turned the key and could hear what sounded like a constant hissing sound the whole time.

I stopped after a few minutes and decided to ask before I continued on. From what I've read ANY air is a bad thing right? Or does there have to be SOME air to move the water through the pipes?

I've been reading up on this a bit but am by no means that familiar with this type of heating system. I'm used to the standard central air / heat setup so this is very new to me.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 07:03 AM
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We need a better description and/or photos of the kind of piping you have. This is a one-floor house?

The two most common hotwater systems are "series loop" and "monoflow tee." A series loop is basically one pipe that runs around the house, going up and down from basement to baseboard and back down to go from room to room. Monoflow tee will be more like spaghetti. One pipe probably runs around the perimeter of the house, and there are T's where a line goes up into the room, then another T where the line comes back down to the main line.

If there are bleeders on each element in each room, that argues for it being monoflow tee. Also if the warmest room is farthest along the piping, then that also argues for monoflow tee, with one or more tee sections being airbound and hence cold.

You should bleed the air until you get water, then close the bleed valve. Air is undesireable in a closed hydronic system like this.

It is possible that you have a lot of air in the system. I don't like the looks of the fill-valving on your system. There's some kind of bypass arrangement there with a globe valve. Grady or others could advise on how to deal with that. My concern is that if you bleed a lot of air, you may end up with not enough water in the system, and if it doesn't auto-fill properly, you run the risk of dry-firing the boiler, I think. That would not be good.

Yes, get the slantfin software and start doing your homework on heat loss, sizing a boiler, etc. We can help with that. Since you are headed that direction, you should also consider how you make hot water. I assume you've got a separate oil or electric water heater. If so, an "indirect" water heater would be a lot more efficient. They cost more up front, but the payback in efficiency and durability over several years is worth it.

The other aspect to consider is addressing the building envelope by adding insulation, sealing air infiltration points, etc. Adding insulation, sealing, etc. is like buying fuel, but you only do it once. The more slowly the house loses heat, the less demand there is to heat it....
 
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Old 10-12-06, 08:15 AM
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Thanks m8, I'm really not sure what kind of system this is but your description of 1 pipe running coming up through the baseboard on one end, running across the length of the wall, and going back down into the floor headed to the next room is what I have here.

Now, when I bled the one room last night I got water right away but I let it run for a few more minutes b/c THE HISSING WOULDN'T STOP! The whole time water was coming out it made a constant hissing noise? Is this normal? The stream of water was steady but it hissed the whole time so I just shut it off as nothing was changing.

I too am curious as to whether there is enough water in the system - no reason really - just curious as I sure haven't filled it any.

Also, how can I tell what the psi and temps should be on this thing?

I have plans to go around the house and weather strip and patch any cracks or holes. I have done quite a bit of this already trying while ridding the house of boxelder and lady bugs this spring and got a lot done but there were a couple of cracks around pipes that need to be touched up.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 09:32 AM
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The heat3.jpg shows a temperature and pressure gauge next to the gray box. When the system is running, you should see a temp of ~180F. Pressure should be ~12-18 psi, cold or hot.

Note this is a VERY tired old system. The near-boiler piping is way out of date, there's a mix of metals and pipe types that really shouldn't be there, the circ looks very old and tired, and there's some evidence of leaks around the vent in heat5.jpg.

But be not discouraged. Be deliberate, let's try to solve the air/heat distribution issue and get this thing working as well as you're able.

The filling setup is a new one on me. I see some sort of pressure (or maybe a backflow preventer?) valve with a yellow tag, but there is a blue-handled globe valve that appears to bypass it.

I'm a design/theory guy, and an amateur at that. Grady or others here who deal with hardware hands-on and have long experience should be able to ID the course of action here.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 10:23 AM
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You're right in that there are probably a lot of things wrong with this thing as there is with a number of things with this house. For whatever reason this guy just didn't give a crap and patched things the cheapest way possible instead of doing things as they should be done - really sad as the house could have been nice.

If you are still around I would like to know (more than anything else at the moment) if I am bleeding the baseboard pipes the right way???

I am getting a steady stream of water yet I still hear what sounds like air escaping the valve... OR is this just the sound of the water exiting the tiny hole?

BTW, remember when I said we had a couple of weeks before we should start seeing snow... well, it came early this year
 

Last edited by DIYaddict; 10-12-06 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Removed quote as it's unnecessary to quote the entire post directly above yours
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Old 10-12-06, 10:37 AM
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old, but not dead

I'm old and retired but I spent over thirty years as an engineer in energy systems. What you have is an old and poorly maintained system but that doesn't mean that it cannot function to the same degree of comfort and efficiency as when it was first installed.

Certainly you could realize a higher fuel utilization efficiency by replacing the existing boiler with a new one and I encourage you to plan for doing so in the future.

But for right now I will make a few suggestions.

The "filling arrangement" that has xiphias puzzled is not uncommon but it is rather worthless. The blue-handled valve is indeed a bypass around the pressure reducing (auto-fill) valve but without also having shut-off valves and unions installed inside of the bypass loop it does not give the ability to repair/replace the pressure reducing valve.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that since (it appears) that the main piping system is copper that you do indeed have a one-pipe distribution system with Monoflo tees. If you had a series loop you would not have some baseboard convectors getting hot while others stayed cold.

I noticed from the last of the pictures that you have radiator valves installed. This is also a strong indication that you do NOT have a series-loop piping arrangement.

(The other possibility is that you have a system that has both series-loop and one-pipe components.)

These radiator valves should all be in the open position (turned fully counter-clockwise) and there does exist the possibility that if these valves are installed on the cold baseboard convectors that their internal parts have come loose and are blocking the water flow.

The "bleeder valves", properly called air vents, should be on the "outlet" side of the water flow through the baseboard convector. I personally like to have float-type air vents installed but even these will require manual venting in the case when the water is drained from the system.

Try venting the air from the cold baseboard units first. It may release a great deal of water before it starts to release air and then it may spit both air and water for a time. During the venting process you must have the make-up water (via the auto-fill valve) "making up" the water that you are bleeding out. Do not open the bypass valve around the auto-fill valve as it will cause the system to be over pressurized and that can open up several more worm cans. It will be normal to have many different noises while bleeding the air and you may well indeed need to bleed each and every baseboard convector several times before you get all of the air out.


I am assuming that all of your baseboard convectors are on one floor. Please describe the entire heating system layout...number of floors in the house and all types of heaters. Also describe in as much detail as possible all of the controls (thermostats) and such of your system. This is not rocket science and you CAN get it to work.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 12:26 PM
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Thanks xiphias and furd - thanks a bunch for your replies - it has kept me encouraged. When the snow fell last night I must say panic set in. I just can't take the family (mainly the kids... 2, 6, 7, and 13) through another winter like the last one.

The guy who is selling us the house lives on this same property but is worthless to say the least and I'm by no means versed in fuel oil heating systems.

At any rate, the system layout of the system as best I can describe it is...

Floor #1 has 5 baseboard radiators(?) in 5 rooms all of which are constructed the same way... on one end of the radiator(?) is a knob (like the last pic) and on the other end is the valve which takes a little key that fits over the square valve knob for bleeding.

Floor #2 has only 1 large room (master bedroom) and it has a similar setup as the other rooms EXCEPT that the radiator is larger with larger fins and the housing is made differently (like 2 - 3 feet tall x 4 - 5 feet long).

Controls consist of ONE thermostat that resides on Floor #1 and I don't think it works properly.

...That's about it. I've already taken pictures of the thermostat, the upstairs radiator, and the air vent sides of both the upstairs radiator, as well as, the air vent end of the downstairs radiators (they are all the same).

I'll upload the additional pictures after I post this.

Oh yeah, I have bled all the downstairs radiators and ALL but 1 seemed to be fine as ONLY water came out in a steady stream - no air. That one STILL sounds like there is both air AND water escaping the vent... SHOULD I KEEP AT IT? I've already filled a 13" pyrex cake pan and a small bowl full of water and I can still hear WHAT SOUNDS LIKE air?
 
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Old 10-12-06, 02:19 PM
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Here are the pictures of the upstairs radiator, the ONLY thermostat in the system, and both types of valves - the valve upstairs is different than the rest of the valves in the house...

thermostat -
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/thermostat.jpg

valve end of downstairs radiators -
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/downstairs.jpg

upstairs radiator -
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/upstairs.jpg

valve end of upstairs radiators -
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/upstairs2.jpg

...I've continued to bleed the kitchen radiator and am beginning to suspect that the valve is faulty or something b/c when I use my fingers to put pressure on the valve while it's open the hissing is reduced to a whisper while the water continues to come out. Is this possible?

I have now drained 2 full 13 inch pyrex cake pans full of water and the hissing sound doesn't seem to be getting weaker in the least bit.

When I bled every other radiator in the house (including the upstairs unit) water came out immediately in a steady stream with no sign or sound of air escaping.

For what it's worth, and this is only a guess, I believe the radiator with the constant hissing is the first radiator in the loop.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 04:42 PM
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Its been a long time since I worked on a system such as yours, I wish that I lived close to you as I would love to get this system working for you.


Okay, I'm going to ask some rather detailed questions. First, where do you live and what are the normal low temperatures during your heating season?

Do you have a finished ceiling in your basement or is it open so that you are able to trace the piping to the point where it goes through the floor to each individual heating unit?

What are the lengths of your individual heating units? Where are they located in the rooms? Outside or inside walls? Under the windows? What are the approximate dimensions of your rooms?

What is the temperature of the water coming out of the boiler? Try to touch the outlet piping (carefully as it may be quite hot) and then carefully touch the return piping before it enters the boiler. Is there a noticible difference in the temperature?

Remove the grey cover on the box above the oil burner and take a few pictures of the "guts" of this control. Please post any model and/or serial numbers of this control.

Where is your thermostat located? Is it anywhere near one of the heating units?

Check to see if you have Monoflo tees in your system. Look at these links:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=28

http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/BG-monoflo.asp


The Monoflo tee could be on either the supply side to the heating unit or on the return side from the heating unit. I've seen both and both work although the return side is the recommended one.

The heating units on your main floor are called "baseboard convectors" and while they do radiate some heat they mostly work by heating the room air that comes in at the bottom, is heated and flows out of the top. It is important that nothing blocks this airflow or you will have poor heating. Remove the covers along the entire length of the units and vacuum all dust and lint from the finned tube element. Make sure that nothing (like high-pile carpet) impedes the airflow into the bottom of the unit and that there are no curtains or drapes covering the top of the units. Be sure the damper at the top is open fully. Replace the cover...it won't work without the front cover. The heating unit on your second floor is called a "cabinet convector" and it works in the same manner but because it has several finned tubes it has a greater heat output than a baseboard convector.

Does the cabinet convector (second floor) put out a reasonable amount of heat?

Generally speaking, convector systems are designed to run about 170 to 180 degrees F. supply temperature on the water. There ability to impart any meaningful amount of heat to the home drops off quite rapidly whenever the temperature of the water entering the heater drops below 140 degrees F.

Please post a picture (if possible) of the piping where the main line (assuming that you have a main line) branches off to the individual heating unit.

When was the boiler last cleaned? It appears from your photo that the "firesides" of this boiler are all but inaccessable. Are there any doors or panels that are bolted onto the boiler? You may have to remove the sheet metal casing on the end opposite the oil burner to check. Also removing the smoke pipe from the top of the boiler will allow you to look into the boiler "gas passage outlet" and check for excessive soot.

If you have a metal dial-type candy thermometer, one that reads upwards of 400 degreesF., look to see if there is a 1/4 inch (or so) hole in the smoke pipe fairly close to the boiler, either in the adjustable elbow or immediately above the elbow. If so you may try inserting the thermometer stem into this hole while the oil burner is running. This particular boiler will probably run a "stack temperature" of about 700 degrees F. when clean so you will not be able to leave the thermometer in place but see how quickly it rises to the the maximum thermometer temperature. If you have access to an industrial thermometer, either a thermocouple type, dial type or even an infrared (non-contact) that reads to 1,000 degrees F. or more you will be able to get a good stack temperature reading.


I know that you don't want to read this but it is possible that if this system was just cobbled together it may not have the needed output to properly warm the house.

Post back.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 06:08 PM
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furd you rock. what a cool post.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 07:05 PM
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Cleaning Boiler

If this is the boiler I think it is, to clean the passageways you need to remove the "steel" colored plate just below the grey box with the red button. (See: heat3) It should be held on with just two nuts. Be careful not to wring them off. Let's get you some heat before we worry about cleaning the boiler.

Xiphias mentioned the device with the yellow tag. That is the pressure reducing valve or feed valve. The handle on it is a "fast fill" feature which when lifted perpendicular to the pipe, bypasses the reducing valve's set shut off point.

If you get a steady stream of water with the circulator not running, try bleeding with the circulator on. You can also try increasing the boiler pressure to 20-25#. Sometimes the air needs a kick in the seat of the pants to get it to move. Just like some people I know.

Cabinet convectors are 99% of the time piped as mono-flow tees. Hang in there with us & we'll try our darnest to get your family some heat.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 10:04 PM
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Well, I just typed about three pages worth of answers to your questions with pics and everything and accidently hit the back button and LOST IT ALL!

OMG HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN! THAT SHOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 10-12-06, 11:06 PM
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Sorry for the outburst... but I just waisted about 3 hours of my life when that happened! Oh well, let's try it again... forgive me if the answers are short...

Before we get into that I must say THANK YOU guys for such informative and detailed replies... it sure gave me a boost to know you, Grady, and xiphias are so knowledgeable and I may be able to get this thing in decent shape. Okay, here goes...

- I live in Cassopolis, MI (near IN border) and during the winter it's very cold... 0 - 20 degrees depending on the day.

- The basement is unfinished and I can see the pipes until they go into the walls. There are crawl space entrances from there.

- Heating units are located outside of the walls and they all are under at least one window at some point. Here are the dimensions of the rooms and convectors in each room...

Floor 1:

Kitchen (16ft x 10ft) / straight convector @ 52 inches
Office (18ft x 8ft) / straight convector @ 18 inches
*Living Room (18ft x 15ft) / L-shaped convector @ 30 x 150 inches
Bedroom1 (10ft x 12ft) / straight convector @ 94 inches
Bedroom2 (11ft x 12ft) / L-shaped convector @ 72 x 72 inches
*Sears thermostat is in this room... see pics

Floor 2:

Master Bedroom (18ft x 16ft) / straight cabinet convector @ 64 inches (ALWAYS THE HOTTEST ROOM IN THE HOUSE)

- The temperature is 0 at the moment I believe as I don't have the system running. The PSI is @ 12 I think... see pics below.

- What grey box are you speaking of? The one that says Honeywell on it next to the gauge?

Here are some pictures of the piping, monoflow-t's, boiler access panel, etc...

access panel on boiler
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/misc2.jpg

gauge reading 12psi and 0 degrees
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/gauge.jpg

outlet pipe as it leaves boiler
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/outgoing_pipe.jpg

outlet pipe at the first monoflow-t branch off
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/monoflowT3.jpg

boiler model and serial numbers
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/model_serial.jpg

misc pic of boiler
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/misc1.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/misc4.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/misc3.jpg

pic of pipe going to kitchen where hissing valve is
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/pipetohissyvalve.jpg

...this last pic is of the pipe going to the kitchen convector which seems to be the ONLY one with air in it.

- I'm not sure when the boiler was last cleaned. I know I have never touched the thing other than to bleed it when I let it run out of fuel oil once before.

- I'll take a look at the boiler for excessive soot at the smoke pipe and access panel tomorrow and take some pics as I'm sure it will only get more interesting.

- The only thermometer I have is for the kids LOL! I'll see if my buddy has one though - he may have one of those infared/laser setups. Wow, 700 degrees! Good grief!

- I plan on having the tanks filled this weekend or early next week and I'll turn it on then and check the temperatures as I really don't think there is enough fuel to run it long enough to get anything done at the moment. I was so frustrated with it last winter I was glad to be done using it when it warmed up and haven't even looked in it's direction until a couple of days ago.

LMK if I forgot something and in the meantime I'll be getting pics of the inside of the grey Honeywell box just incase this is what you were referring to AND I'll try to get some pics of the inside of the boiler with the access panel off.
 
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Old 10-12-06, 11:20 PM
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Hey Grady, you're spot on... the device with the yellow tag is the fill valve which has a fast fill mode when the lever is in the fast position. I had to deal with that thing twice already... both times something jarred the thing just enough for it to start fast-filling and it soaked the basement.

When you said...

"If you get a steady stream of water with the circulator not running, try bleeding with the circulator on"

...what is the circulator? Also, how to I increase the pressur e in the boiler exactly? Just add more water via the fill valve we just mentioned?

You were also right about the monoflow-ts as I see quite a few of them down there now that I know what they look like

Let me know how to turn on the circulator and add pressure to the system and I'm on it.
 
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Old 10-13-06, 12:27 PM
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Okay, I was going to wait to hear back before posting this but I figured it's better to have more info than not enough so here goes...

I got the grey cover off (at least I think this is what you meant) and this is what it looks like...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/undergreycover.jpg

...there is a diagram on the back of the grey panel and I took a shot of that...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/backofgreycover.jpg

I took more pics with the access panel off, but there isn't anything to access that I can tell anyways. It's blocked by what looks like wood and insulation...

access panel off
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/accesspaneloff.jpg

access panel
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/accesspanel.jpg

...you were right about the soot build up. Only thing is that it really doesn't look like anything you can clean?

Here's a pic of another model number on the oil burner...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/anothermodelnumber.jpg

...after playing with the lighting on the picture I could tell the model number reads Sears Model No. 34878727.

Lastly, here are more pics of the burner outlet and inlet piping, vents, fuel tanks, and where you bleed the burner...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/boiler2.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/boiler3.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/boiler4.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/fueltanks.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/bleedboilerhere.jpg

...hope these help.

Grady, before I went to bed I used the fast fill valve to raise the pressure in the system to 20psi and am now about to go around and see if this helps push the air throught the system.

Furd, I didn't see a 1/4 inch hole near the top of the boiler - it looks like the smoke piping was replaced at one point as it's newer (shiny aluminum) looking than anything else on the unit.

Also, the upstairs (Cabinet Convector) is definitely the hottest heater in the house. It gets wayyyy too hot actually! Is there a way to lower the temp on this without a there being a thermostat upstairs?
 
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Old 10-13-06, 07:22 PM
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Please forgive my delay in responding. I should have noticed this at first (actually I did but I let it slip) that you have a Sears system.

Many years ago, (20 plus) Sears used to sell the parts for DIY installation of heating systems. Somewhere I have their installation book (I think I still have it) but I don't know where. They sold both steel and cast iron boilers with their name although the boilers were made by a boiler company. One thing I remember from their book is the use of "scoop" tees. They did not use (or sell) Monoflo tees, which are a Bell & Gosset patented device.

What I saw in this picture (http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/monoflowT3.jpg)
and in this picture (http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/misc1.jpg) were NOT B&G Monoflo tees but were standard copper reducing tees.

The second picture (it shows sideways on my computer) also has a float-type air vent on it.


Anyway, the Honeywell control (the "grey cover") was as I expected, a combination aquastat and primary control. It appears to be a variation of an R8182 combination aquastat and primary control. Grady probably knows far more about this particular control than I but essentially it controls the safe operation of your oil burner and will fire that burner based on signals from your room thermostat and the temperature of the boiler water.

At first I thought that you had a steel boiler with fire tubes but after looking at the pictures with the access plate removed it looks more like the firesides of a cast iron boiler. (I detest CI boilers) I am concerned about the tee fitting on the smoke pipe that looks to be covered over with aluminum foil, this should have a "barometric draft damper" installed here to maintain a constant draft on the boiler outlet for proper combustion. Here is a page that explains a bit about the barometric draft damper and has a couple of pictures.

http://www.bacharach-training.com/combustionzone/draft1.htm

Reducing the heat output of the cabinet convector is easy...just cut some pieces of heavy-weight aluminum foil to partially cover the finned tube array at the bottom. (sheet metal would be even better). It will take some trial and error but by blocking the air flow through the finned tube you can control the room temperature. The more of the tube array you cover the less heat in the room.

By now I assume you have found out that the "circulator" is the pump on the pipe entering the bottom of the boiler. It is controlled by the room thermostat and the aquastat/primary control (the "grey box"). The aquastat has a "low limit" setting that will prevent the circulator from running until the temperature of the boiler water comes up to the "low limit" setting. You will need to put the access panel back in place before you fire the burner.

BTW, the wood does not belong there.

I haven't run any numbers yet on your room size vs. the convector sizes. I'll do that later tonight or early tomorrow morning.

Hopefully Grady can add some more thoughts.
 
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Old 10-13-06, 07:52 PM
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Furd, I'm glad you posted when you did, I was reading & making notes in preparation for a reply when your post came in. Saved me a lot of typing & duplication of your comments.

tb40nd:
In the photo showing the cast iron acess plates, I noticed what looks like either a water leak or creosote around the right (back?) plate. Neither is good. Get yourself a couple of boiler brushes, a shop vac, & a GOOD dust mask then take the plates off & start brushing & sucking out the soot. Before you put each plate back on, apply a bead of furnace cement around the edges.

Regarding reducing the heat output from that one convector, some have a damper in them just close it part of the way. If there is no damper, take heavy duty aluminum foil & wrap part of the radiator in the bottom. You will have to play with how much to wrap but I'd start with 1/3 to 1/2 of the length.

Furd is right about the control. It looks like an R8182D which may have been converted to cold start. An easy way to tell is to turn on power to the boiler with no call for heat. If the burner does not fire, until there is a call for heat,the control has been converted to a cold start configuration. BTW, treat that control gently. Replacements are in the $300-400 range as I recall.
 
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Old 10-14-06, 08:01 PM
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I have never turned the circulator off myself so it must run ONLY when the system is running right? If this is correct then I need to get the guy out here to fill the tanks so I can run this thing long enough to do bleed all the convectors properly right?

Grady, when you say creosote you mean the black stuff on the back of the access panel door right? This stuff...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/accesspanel_edited-1.jpg

...just the black stuck on stuff - not the hairy insulation looking stuff right? Please forgive my ignorance.

I have both aluminum foil and a roll of sheet metal I just bought a couple of weeks ago so that problem can go in the solved column - WOOT!

I'm gonna read up on the damper - any ideas as to where I may be able to buy a replacement?
 
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Old 10-15-06, 09:18 AM
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creosote, damper, etc

I actually meant the black stuff on the boiler which appears to be weeping out around the back clean out plate. The black stuff on the insulation looks like it could be the same thing. This makes me believe it is creosote.

Some convectors had dampers & some did not. I seriously doubt you will find a replacement even if your convector had one installed originally. The damper was a hinged piece of sheet metal which could be raised to vertical or lowered over the "radiator" at the bottom. It was a means of restricting air flow thru the radiator & thus regulating the amount of heat.
 
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Old 10-16-06, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
I actually meant the black stuff on the boiler which appears to be weeping out around the back clean out plate. The black stuff on the insulation looks like it could be the same thing. This makes me believe it is creosote.

Some convectors had dampers & some did not. I seriously doubt you will find a replacement even if your convector had one installed originally. The damper was a hinged piece of sheet metal which could be raised to vertical or lowered over the "radiator" at the bottom. It was a means of restricting air flow thru the radiator & thus regulating the amount of heat.
Grady,
is this the panel i should take off...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/misc3.jpg

nevermind! you meant this black panel right...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/heat3.jpg
 
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Old 10-16-06, 03:11 PM
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Well, before I tried to remove the panel I soaked the nuts with some a couple types of penetrating oil but they wouldn't budge using a heavy duty nut driver.

How much pressure do you think I can apply to the bolts? I have some heavier duty wrenchs I can use but didn't want to break them like you mentioned earlier.

BTW, I'll have the tanks filled this week and will be able to bleed with the circulator running. I'd like to have the thing cleaned before running it. Hopefully, I'll get this panel off w/o breaking the nuts.

If I do get the panel off do either of you want pictures with the panel off? LMK if you do.
 
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Old 10-16-06, 06:11 PM
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Panel

Don't worry about that panel. You can clean the boiler from those (4?) smaller panels on the back right side under the access panel you removed. Remember the furthest one back I questioned about creosote?
 
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Old 10-16-06, 06:26 PM
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The fire on that burner is burning to cold.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/accesspaneloff.jpg

This is nothing to play with. You need to risk being over charged and call a tech. Then get out your check book and buy a new boiler before you either die from carbon monoxide or a fire.
 
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Old 10-16-06, 07:43 PM
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Please call a PRO!

Dear Lord, when this family wakes up dead, you guys are gonna get sued... PLEASE!!!! have a professional look at that thing before something really bad happens!

Peace
 
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Exclamation Damper

Why in the world is the damper sealed over??? That alone will waste a large amount of fuel! Was it because you getting fumes in the house? Dangerous.
 
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Old 10-19-06, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Gregory
The fire on that burner is burning to cold.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tb40nd/accesspaneloff.jpg

This is nothing to play with. You need to risk being over charged and call a tech. Then get out your check book and buy a new boiler before you either die from carbon monoxide or a fire.
thanks for the reply. this is why i posted this as i was sure something wasn't right.


Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Dear Lord, when this family wakes up dead, you guys are gonna get sued... PLEASE!!!! have a professional look at that thing before something really bad happens!
ummm... thanks for the reply, however, i'm not sure what you are referring regarding someone being sued?

MY family lives in this house so if there will be any lawsuits I'll be the one filling them!

don't get me wrong I appreciate everyone's input, but for you to make such alarming comments when you obviously haven't read through the thread, comes across as rude and obnoxious.
 
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Old 10-19-06, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by radioconnection
Why in the world is the damper sealed over??? That alone will waste a large amount of fuel! Was it because you getting fumes in the house? Dangerous.
i'm not sure why that was done that way.

we land contracted with this guy and have until Dec. to do the deal. this boiler issue is one of a number of problems that need to be addressed.

as i mentioned earlier, i have no experience with boilers - i'm used to standard central air/heat and last year was a harsh introduction to this type of heating system.

the most i've done to this thing is what you see in the pictures i've posted (removing side panels). other than that the only other time i touched the thing was when the owner showed me how to bleed the burner after it ran out of fuel.

i am definitely going to someone out here before i run this thing this winter, but i do want to learn as much as possible about the system so i can maintain it once i get it running right AND so i'm not TOTALLY at the mercy of whoever services this thing.

SO, the black stuff means the boiler isn't getting hot enouigh and thus there is a very good chance we'll have an unsafe amouint of unburned gases in the air if the boiler is run in this condition.
 
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Old 10-19-06, 03:31 PM
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Black Stuff

"SO, the black stuff means the boiler isn't getting hot enouigh and thus there is a very good chance we'll have an unsafe amouint of unburned gases in the air if the boiler is run in this condition."

The black stuff is a strong indication of condensation of combustion products taking place. In general this means the flame is not hot enough at that part of the boiler. This could be caused by a nozzle not large enough or the wrong spray angle. It also could be caused by a large volume of cold water coming back to the rear part of the boiler. Whether or not the exhaust gases are escaping into the house is possible but not absolutely sure. When you have a pro come in, make sure he/she does a complete combustion analysis including CO.
 
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Old 10-19-06, 05:39 PM
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If you do not have CO detectors on each floor of your home, including the basement, go get them NOW.

This is a marginal or below system. Could it be fixed up? Maybe. Does it pose a hazard? IMHO, absolutely.
 
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Old 10-19-06, 07:19 PM
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ummm... thanks for the reply, however, i'm not sure what you are referring regarding someone being sued
Let's say something bad does happen as a result of you following someone's [well intended, but bad/wrong] advice here on the internet... who is liable ?

MY family lives in this house so if there will be any lawsuits I'll be the one filling them!
Maybe not, if you are killed in your sleep, you won't be in a position to file anything...

don't get me wrong I appreciate everyone's input, but for you to make such alarming comments when you obviously haven't read through the thread, comes across as rude and obnoxious
My comments weren't intended to win any popularity contests, sorry... I was more concerned for your families and your health and well being. If that makes me rude and obnoxious, then so be it. Yes, I did read the whole thread before I commented, I was and still am feared for you and your family.

Please, at the VERY LEAST, follow xiph's advice :
Purchase and install CO detectors!!!

Peace
 
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Old 10-20-06, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
This could be caused by a nozzle not large enough or the wrong spray angle. It also could be caused by a large volume of cold water coming back to the rear part of the boiler.
I really wish I could see what you are referring to Grady. Is it possible to take the remaining three (minus the front where burner is as it's already off) panels off and get access to the nozzles etc. or at least to the point where I could take pictures that would give you guys a better idea of what's causing the boiler to run cooler than it should? OR, is this something that would be cause for a replacement?

Originally Posted by Grady
When you have a pro come in, make sure he/she does a complete combustion analysis including CO.
I will certainly do this when he gets here (hopefully by Wed. next week). If you can think of anything else that I should definately get done plmk. Hopefully, Furd will be able to do that heating analysis but if not that'll be on the list as well.
 
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Old 10-20-06, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by xiphias
If you do not have CO detectors on each floor of your home, including the basement, go get them NOW.

This is a marginal or below system. Could it be fixed up? Maybe. Does it pose a hazard? IMHO, absolutely.
I did get ONE CO detector the other day and have it plugged in. Thankfully, it hasn't gone off yet.

They were on sale at walmart for $15 so I'll at least grab another one for the basement as we only have the one bedroom upstairs and the basement/boiler room is where it should be the strongest (at least initially) right?
 
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Old 11-04-06, 12:54 AM
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Update...

I had somewhat of a problem finding someone to come out and take a look at the system for a reasonable price so I decided to do a test run of the system using "off road" diesel fuel per the advice of the people who fill our tanks. This was done AFTER getting the C02 detector installed in the boiler room

It took about 4 attempts to start the boiler but it finally fired up after bleeding the fuel line a couple of times.

It came on a ran as usual without issue and I started bleeding the convectors one at a time while the system was running. None of them seemed to have any air in them as nothing but water came out in a steady stream.

I let the system run for about 10 - 15 minutes before I started bleeding them and two of the five were warm and the others still had cold water in them. After another 10 minutes or so I went back and bled them again and 3 were hot, 2 warm, and I didn't get the last one.

After another 15 -20 minutes of running without issue IT JUST STOPPED and had to be reset. After resetting it, it ran for about 10 minutes and stopped and when I checked the gauges the pressure was up to 19psi and 210 degrees. There is a little red arrow on the pressure gauge that sits at about 15 -16psi and the arrow was past this of course at 19psi.

Are these numbers within the norm? If so, why would it need to be reset? As always, thanks so much guys!
 
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Old 11-04-06, 04:33 AM
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IMO, you have a potentially dangerous situation here that you need to suck up and figure out how to pay to have the system replaced. This is an old, poorly-maintained, falling-apart-at-the-seams system that has *significant* safety issues. Good thing the reset still works or you might have a runaway boiler on your hands. Think large explosion up into the first floor. Whose room is over the boiler? You really want to go there?

I implore you to stop messing around and come to grips with this.

Get several bids and chances are you do not choose the guy who lowballs you. Been there, done that, never again. You want to pay once, not twice. Get estimates, post the suggested equipment and other info, and we can help you evaluate.

At 210F if the gauge is at all correct, you are probably flashing to steam somewhere. Not good. The 19 psi is not terrible, but the temp is probably causing the reset.
 

Last edited by xiphias; 11-04-06 at 04:51 AM.
  #39  
Old 11-04-06, 01:33 PM
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tb40nd

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing & it seems you have just enough to be dangerous. SHUT THAT BURNER DOWN NOW.
I know professionals are not cheap but they are a lot cheaper than your family's life. CALL A PRO. This burner/boiler probably can be made safe but it takes the knowledge & skills of a professional.
 
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Old 11-05-06, 04:16 PM
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Ok, the boiler is off!

If I do decide to put some money into replacing a boiler what all should be replaced? Everything like the pipes and baseboard convectors and all?

Or would replacing the unit in the basement be sufficient? To test the thing I put about 8 - 10 gallons of diesel in it and I think it used it all in about 36 hours.

Also, if this burner that's in there now uses fuel oil/diesel (not gasoline) would it still release CO2? The reason I ask is b/c the lady at the service oil company said there's no CO2 risk when burning fuel oil/diesel.
 
 

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