7184 primary control

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Old 11-20-06, 08:18 PM
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7184 primary control

The original 7184's came with a choice of intermittent or interrupted ignition, the later ones deleted the intermittent.

What if, for some dumb reason, someone actually _wanted_ intermittent rather than interrupted ignition ?

Could they simply wire the transformer and the motor together to run at the same time off of the motor connection on the control?
 
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Old 11-20-06, 08:35 PM
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Wink

Have did it lots of time on the old stack controls. like if it lost the relay for the transformer. Just tied the transformer on the motor relay . Dont have the paper work here on the R7184 A-B-U
Cant say for sure
 
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Old 11-21-06, 03:00 PM
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The R7184 control never had a choice, or should I say it always had a choice, the only difference would be as you say if you hook the igniter to the blue wire or to the orange wire. There is no reason that a retention head burner needs to have the ignition on constantly, if this is the only way you can keep it running then there is something wrong.
 
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Old 11-21-06, 06:31 PM
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Ignition

To run the ignition the whole time the burner is on is not only hard on the ignitor/transformer but wastes energy (money). The old iron core transformers drew about 2 - 2.5 amps or the equivalent of 3 100 watt light bulbs.
 
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Old 11-22-06, 03:41 PM
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Thanks guys!

I'm replacing the 8184 with the 7184 and the cleancut pump, probly this weekend.

The 8184 (old control) has intermittent, not interrupted ignition, right ? I just wanna make sure I'm not confused again!

Very occasionaly this boiler still puffs once or twice on a cold start (I DID find an air leak last week in the suction line though, and haven't heard it puff since then, fingers crossed). Runs great otherwise... I'm only thinking of going back to intermittent as a temp measure if after I change out the control, I experience flame-out and recycle.

It is an older iron transformer on there... I plan on changing that out also, but only if it croaks on me.

BTW, and not to change the subject, but I'm looking at 3.5" Hg on my newly installed filter and gauge. Seems a bit high to me for a brandy-new spin-on ? Or maybe that Roth pickup assy is more restrictive than they will admit to ( 1.75" ) ?

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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Old 11-22-06, 06:43 PM
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Vac. Reading

Your vacuum reading does not surprise me with a 2 pipe system. Remember, with a A2VA-7116 Suntec pump your are pumping about 17 GPH with a two pipe. Do your self a favor & can that two pipe & install a Tiger Loop. It will not only help with the air problem but slow down the flow thru the filter to the same as your firing rate. The vacuum will drop.
I am not in love with the Clean Cut pump. As I understand it, the Clean Cut does not have an internal cut off. I realize the electric solenoid stops the fuel flow faster & cleaner the the internal valve but I prefer an external solenoid in conjunction with the internal valve of the A2VA-7116. This gives me an extra layer of protection against gravity feeding. I know you are feeding off the top of the tank but just the amount of fuel in the piping where it could gravity feed will make one heck of a mess of a boiler.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING
 

Last edited by Grady; 11-22-06 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 11-22-06, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
... Do your self a favor & can that two pipe & install a Tiger Loop...
Ha! You been readin' my mind, ain'tcha ?

That's actually been part of my plan... this weekend, I'm installing the flex lines. I'm gonna run it like this for a couple weeks, in the meantime, pick up the T/L . If I get a warm enough Saturday, I'll kill the boiler for an hour or so, and put that in. But... I have a question or two about that too, might as well ask now!

I was going to keep the filter installed at the burner, inside the 2pipe loop. I think you are saying that the filter should be on the 1pipe side of the T/L ? Or... what could it hurt to put another filter at the tank ?

OK, so we aren't slowly filtering the contents of the tank by recirculating the oil. Won't that allow more of the sludge to drop out of suspension, and collect on the bottom ? It seems like it could, but maybe I shouldn't worry about it, and it won't cause problems in the future ?

Grady, what conditions would it gravity feed ? Should I use a check valve somewhere ? I was thinking it would be nice to have a check valve on the return line so it didn't spew all over every time I took the line off to swing the door open. (but the flex lines should solve that problem anyway).

OH, I discovered another faux pas by the installers... They didn't heed the manf advice. Probly didn't read the instruction book.

Roth recommends AGAINST installing the pickup "spider" assy in an adjacent hole to the one the level gauge is in. They say the float and string for the gauge can get tangled with the pickup tubing. Sounds like another good reason to go with the solid copper and duplex bushing instead of the Roth assy.

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Old 11-22-06, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
To run the ignition the whole time ... wastes energy (money)...
Speakin' of which, do those new PSC motors really save as much as they claim (what was it, 50% ?) over the old style ? cuz I'm thinkin' of changing that out too, remember this burner is vintage 1984, and all original (but meticulously maintained!)...
 
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Old 11-23-06, 09:16 AM
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Fuel System

Let me describe the fuel system I like to see, from the tank to the pump. Top feed from the tank with a floating suction line. Manual shut off valve at the tank. Filter (General 1A-25A or equal). Oil safety valve. Plastic covered fuel line. Manual valve. Fine filter (I know spin-ons are all the rage but I don't like them). Tiger Loop.

Gravity flow could occur should the internal valve in the pump or the solenoid valve fail. With both an internal valve & the solenoid, the chances of both failing are pretty slim.

Regarding your question about the PSC motors: I've never put an amprobe one to honestly answer.
 
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Old 11-23-06, 09:49 AM
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That's pretty much what I have / what I have planned, with the exception of the filter in the 1 pipe line, and the filter I have now is at the burner.

So, I could leave the spin-on in the 2 pipe loop from the T/L, and re-use the 1A-25 that I took out and install that in the 1 pipe line at/near the tank ?

How about a check valve though, is that a no-no ? or a yes-yes ? I _think_ there is a check valve of some sort in the Roth pickup assy, possibly in the return line .

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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Old 11-23-06, 10:50 AM
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Fuel system

Put the 1A-25A at the tank & the spin-on ahead of the loop. Don't recirculate thru the filter. There should be no check valve but I do like to see an oil safety valve at the tank, downstream of the first filter.
 
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Old 11-24-06, 06:58 AM
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I spend alot of time troubleshooting burners, as a matter of fact I never get to see a burner running until everyone else is at witts end. The last 12 jobs I have been on 10 of them were suction line problems on two pipe systems, two of those were new Roth tanks, both of those were solved by removing the Roth valve assy and replacing it with a duplex bushing. They are nice tanks but there is something about the vales and the crappy double cracked oil we have in the USA I guess, because I suppose thier valve assy works in Europe.
 
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Old 11-24-06, 10:15 AM
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Fuel Quality, etc.

For something like 15 years, the company for which I worked sold nothing but low sulfur diesel as heating oil. We had VERY few fuel related problems other than those we inherited. Unfortunately, the refinery from which we get our fuel stopped producing "low" sulfur product & is now producing only ultra low & high sulfur fuels. With the change to the ultra low also came a price increase of about 30 cents per gallon. The "low" was vertually the same price (+/- 1 or 2 cents) as high sulfur but now, because we were the only ones selling the good stuff & the public won't pay an extra 30 cents/gallon, we have been forced into selling the same junk everybody else does. I fully expect fuel related service calls to increase significantly in the next couple of years. It is amazing how much cleaner equipment stays with the low sulfur fuel. Personally, I pay the extra for quality.
Two pipe systems should be, & have been in some areas, outlawed.
 
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Old 11-24-06, 03:11 PM
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No longer 7184 ... now, oil lines and Roth Gripes

Boy do I need a new flaring tool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Took me three tries to get one that didn't leak... and, as usual, the hardest one to get to.

Yeah right, blame it on the tools, suuurrrre, it's the tools fault

But the flex lines are on, ready for the Tiger loop.

Hello, the more I look at that POS valve assy, the more I can't imagine why there isn't more trouble with it. I re-read the manual and saw another problem with my install. Roth says not to use that valve when temps of 10* or below are expected. In other words, not outdoors in cold climes, and probably not even in my garage. We don't go below 10* for long here usually, but my garage might as well be outside, ramshackle as it is. (I sometimes have to brush snow off my windshield even with the truck inside!). So I'm definitely gonna junk that junk when I install the T/L .

Oh yeah, they also warn about using fuel treatments using Naptha with that pickup assy...

Is there a good way to "wall-mount" the 1A-25 filter ? I really don't want it flopping around on the oil lines at the tank.

We've gotten pretty far from the topic, haven't we ? Oh well...

-
 
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Old 11-24-06, 03:48 PM
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Wall mounting filter

You can use a couple of "L" brackets & 3/8" pipe out of both sides of the filter. You'll have to drill an extra hole in the "L" brackets to use the mini muffler type clamps. Sorry, for the life of me I can remember what they are called. (shackles?)

Yeh, the concept of a plastic tank in a tin box is OK I guess but I still like a tank I can drain some of the water & other junk off the bottom.
 
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Old 11-24-06, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
...can't remember what they are called. (shackles?)...
maybe U-bolts ? I have some all-thread that's just waiting to be bent... Thanks!
 
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Old 11-24-06, 06:43 PM
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Red face U-Bolts

Yep, that's what they are. Don't I feel dumb? Just make sure you use brackets long enough to bring the filter out about an inch or so from the wall. This allows room to get a small bucket or other container under the filter when changing the element.
 
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Old 11-24-06, 10:22 PM
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Wink

Boy do I need a new flaring tool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Check out the Imperial flaring tool #507-FA
will do 1/8" to 3/4" tubing. You cant make a bad flare with it
 
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Old 11-25-06, 04:07 AM
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Sid Harvey sells a pre-made bracket that will fit most filters
 
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Old 11-25-06, 10:04 AM
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Flaring tools

The Imperial 507 is a 37 tool. I have, & use everyday, it's 45 cousin. If I were going to buy a new flaring tool, it would be the Rigid but either the Imperial or Rigid is way more than is needed around the house.
 
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Old 11-25-06, 11:29 AM
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Grady

Think I need to disagree...the less talented you are the more you need a more forgiving tool, if you were on some of these jobs I have been on lately you might agree!

I use an Imperial, never tried the Rigid.
 
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Old 11-25-06, 11:33 AM
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Wink

Sorry about that . Just picked up my aircraft cat. Fot the ## Forgot about the 37o or 45o. Oh well. The yellow Jacket 45o one will do the same . Gives you the tube height gauge and a polished flare seat. Dont have the ### for a 45o on a Imperial

ED
 
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Old 11-25-06, 12:49 PM
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I have no qualms about buying top shelf tools. If you saw my tool box, you would know that's true! Usually only tools that I plan to use a lot though... so big bux on a flaring tool might not be in the future. I _WILL_ be replacing this P O S though...

Looking at the crappy flares I'm getting with this one, I've concluded a couple things from examining the tool:

The hole between the two bars isn't bored straight.

The U-clamp thingy that does the flaring isn't straight.

The "counter-bore" in the bars isn't deep enough.

I end up with shallow, off-center flares. AND, they have burrs on the backside of the flare, causing it to not seat properly, and leak.

It's as good as "in the can" already.

Thanks for the tool tips guys!
 
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Old 11-25-06, 01:52 PM
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Flaring tool

The Imperial is their # imp .500 FC. It all comes down to preparation of the tubing end. I cut slowly, ream lightly, file the end smooth, ream again, file again, & clean out the end of the tubing with a rag. Most of the bad flares I see in the field are a direct result of that blasted "get 'er done" attitude.
 
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Old 11-28-06, 08:54 PM
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Back to the 7184 primary again...

I thought all the 7184's had the jumper installed for the TT terminals???

The one I got ( 7184P valve on/motor off delay ) does not have a jumper installed ! I know I need to add that, but I was under the impression they were all shipped with one installed already.

*they said "don't open this control" ! But I did anyway. OMG, SMD and microprocessors... I think it's time to throw away my Weller 8200 .

-
 
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Old 11-29-06, 04:25 AM
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7184 relays come jumped when built for OEM equipment that requires a jumper, as a replacement part it is not because its not known if one would be required.
 
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Old 11-29-06, 02:24 PM
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Hello, thanks! I figured buying the Beckett branded control it would have the 0 ohm resistor already soldered in. Of course no problem adding the jumper to the term strip. Checked the booklet that came with it, and it says something like " TT jumper installed on select models ". I guess the one I got is not a select model!

On the motor off delay, is the length of delay usually decided on by the length of the chimney ? This one has settings of 0.5 / 2 / 4 / 8 minutes. My chimney is pretty short, so I'm figuring on starting with 30 secs, but how will I know if it's not enough ?

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Old 11-29-06, 04:12 PM
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Motor off delay

Trooper,
As I recall, you have an AFG with an "F" head, but I don't remember what boiler.
One purpose of the motor off delay is to give the chamber time enough to cool somewhat in order not to reflect heat back onto the burner. I would start with the 30 seconds & if you notice carbon build up on the end cone, end cone distortion, or signs of heat getting to the nozzle, you should increase the motor off delay.
Hopefully Hello will see this & either correct me if I am mistaken or can provide some more details. I have only encountered one burner with a motor off delay (my own) therefore I'm not 100% sure of myself on this subject.
 
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Old 11-29-06, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady View Post
As I recall, you have an AFG with an "F" head, but I don't remember what boiler.
Correctamundo...

The boiler is a Vaillant F70-6 ... 140KBTU ... firing at 1.25 !!! (yes, you read that right, it's what came from the factory, and never fiddled with. Ahhh, if I'd only known then, what I know now, that boiler is twice as big as I need!). The head is an F6 . There's about 15' of 6" chimney, connected to the boiler with a vent pipe that has too many elbows (but I can't find a way to do it any better.)

I finished running the heatloss this evening, and even by downplaying the amount of insulation, and infiltration numbers, I can't get that program to give me more than 75KBTU needed. I've got slightly more radiation than I need, but a couple rooms are just a "tad" under.

My plans were to get the new boiler next summer, but I need a new septic system also, so I might have to nurse the old one for another year or two.

I might have to start a new thread about "down firing" this one a bit.

-
 
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Old 11-30-06, 12:02 PM
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I would pick 30seconds (thats how my boiler is set up) that's probably enough to cool the head, if not...go to 2 minutes. Usually 2 min and up are reserved for direct vent equipment and commercial jobs
 
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