System Triage - boiler leak

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Old 01-07-07, 08:03 AM
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System Triage - boiler leak

Xiphias sed in another thread:

"How about we do some "system triage" in case it gives out. Mind starting a new thread on the heat loss, rad type and amount, etc.? Let's figure up a crisis, moderate, better, set of scenarios."

Sounds good to me! This is gonna get a bit long, bear with me please.

A little background first.

At the heart of this system is a Vaillant F70 six section 140,000 BTU oil fired monster that was installed ca. 1984 just before I bought the place. Beckett AFG at 1.25GPM.

No zones, two circuits with balancing valves, one upstairs, one downstairs. All copper fin baseboard, except the downstairs bath and kitchen, which have convector cabinets. There's about 160' total of baseboard, split pretty evenly between the two circuits. Due to a mix of old and new construction, the upstairs is slightly over-radiated, and the downstairs a wee bit under-radiated.

Hot water is provided by electric.

Heat loss calcs put the figure for this house around 72,000 BTU.

As most of you know, my plans have been to replace the boiler this coming spring/summer. In the meantime I've been doing what I've needed to get the system through this winter.

I would like to go with indirect DHW on the new system, zone the up and down circuits, split the down circuit into two parallel circuits (on one zone) in order to provide more heat in the kitchen and bath. Outdoor reset (even partial) would be nice. I would also like to provide about 15,000 BTU extra capacity for a future heating zone in an attached garage shop (this might be provided by sizing for the DHW indirect).

Last week, I found a few plugged flue passages, and spent a few hours opening them up and cleaning up the combustion chamber. I had a funky looking burner head (see thread) that I was concerned about. Thinking it might have been caused by the plugged passages, I opened the door yesterday to see how it looked a week after the cleaning.

The burner head looked fine now... great, fixed ... but, what's that shiny spot on the floor at the rear of the chamber ? Oh no... it's WET! Condensate? Leak ? Got out a mirror and looking at the seam between the last section and the rear piece I could see what appeared to be a "plume" of discoloration extending down, directly above the wet spot on the floor. Apparently, there is a very small leak. The boiler was OFF all day when I discovered this, as it was 72* outside. I suspect the cooling of the CI may have shrunk it enough to make this visible, I saw no evidence of a leak last week when I cleaned it (it may have been there, but since the boiler was hot, not leaking then, and I wasn't using a mirror, looking up...) By the way, I run with the feed valve closed, and have seen no evidence of a pressure drop from losing any water.

OK, now, WHAT TO DO ?

Ignore it, and hope it doesn't get worse ?

Put some stop leak in ? (how does one actually get the stuff IN the boiler?)

Install a low limit A'stat and keep it warm all winter hoping this will keep the iron hot and the leak stopped ? (I happen to have some 4006 low limit controls "in stock"... can this be installed in the tri-dicator well ????*which I don't need cuz of external temp and pressure gauges*)

Replace the boiler ASAP and probably not get what I want due to the time sensitive nature of the job ?

Any and all suggestions are welcome!

Thanks guys! Y'all are da best...
 
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Old 01-07-07, 08:13 AM
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chemicals

I have a capped pipe on the wood boiler in case I have to add chemicals. Figured planning ahead was better than regretting later. Consider it on the new boiler when you're piping. A veritcal 1-1/4" black iron with a cap off a supply or return Tee will do it.

I think you need to try running the boiler hot, you have a triple aquastat in the junk box?? Was the boiler run cold start from day one? My bet is the leak will seal if she's kept at 140 all day.

Pete
 
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Old 01-07-07, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by radioconnection View Post
I think you need to try running the boiler hot, you have a triple aquastat in the junk box?? Was the boiler run cold start from day one? My bet is the leak will seal if she's kept at 140 all day.
Yes, cold start since day 1.

I don't have a triple, but I do have those low limit controls. If the existing tri-dicator well is deep enough, I might be able to install the low limit control well adapter in that one and just wire it to my existing A'stat.
 

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Old 01-07-07, 08:44 AM
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Unhappy worth a try

I was considering adding a low limit on the Biasi at one time. Worth a shot if the well will allow proper temperature sensing. What a bummer!!!
 
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Old 01-07-07, 09:11 AM
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Is your baseboard looped?

What is partial outdoor reset?

What size is your electric water heater?

You mention a possible 15K addition, do you also foresee reductions due to a envelope improvements (windows, doors, insulation etc)? Was your heatloss done with actual infiltration numbers from a blower door test or is it assumed?

********

The idea of stop leak scares me... I have total ignorance here but can't help but think it doesn't help the rest of the system.

Outside of that, everything you said so far makes sense. I'd put extra focus on getting the end state all planned out, especially the big details. In a worst case scenario you may need outside talent to get it done quick. If you have the plans, you're still the system architect... and they are your crew. Either way maybe start at a very high level for looking at equipment, design and controls. That end state may be three phases down the road, but if you do have the long range plan hopefully it will help you make these upcoming decisions better.

********************************
* Equipment
********************************
What are the energy costs there?
Oil?
NG (or LPG)?
Electric?

Would flex fuel capability be a desirable goal?

What is it you are looking for in an indirect? SS? Port?

Any special venting requirements?

Where do you want to get your combustion air?



********************************
* Design
********************************
Any chances you'll want to do radiant for the kitchen or baths in the future, either primary or supplemental floor warming?

If the kitchen were in better balance now, could you see it overheating when full of people or doing major food prep?

Choose the more important of the following:
-comfort vs efficiency?
-serviceability vs efficiency?
-short term costs vs long term savings?
-simplicity vs flexibility?


********************************
* Controls
********************************
Pumps vs ZVs?

Are you going to use setback ?

Any special outdoor reset features desired?

How many temperatures for central heating do you expect to run?
 
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Old 01-07-07, 10:12 AM
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Who's "poll"

Who axed these questions:

>Is your baseboard looped?

Yes, series loops.

>What is partial outdoor reset?

Outdoor reset with a boiler min above (typically 130-140) the lowest _required_ temp . Would be used on a non-condensing system without P/S piping. FULL reset can only be used with condensing boilers, or those with P/S piping.

>What size is your electric water heater?

80 gall / $$$35.00 a month electric

>...do you also foresee reductions due to a envelope improvements (windows, doors, insulation etc)?

No, we're done with the house improvements with the exception of one large window in the LR.

>Was your heatloss done with actual infiltration numbers from a blower door test or is it assumed?

No infiltration data, assumed, using HE2 from Slant-Fin.

>The idea of stop leak scares me...

Me too kinda, but if it's a temporary measure and it all gets replaced soon, who cares ? (I doubt it would clog the b/b piping, and could be flushed completely when the system is replaced)

>What are the energy costs there?

> Oil? last paid 2.59/gall
> NG (or LPG)? Natural not available, no idea on LP
> Electric? winter rates currently appx 0.08/KwH

>Would flex fuel capability be a desirable goal?

Probably not.

>What is it you are looking for in an indirect? SS? Port?

Probably SS, I do like the Heat-flo stuff that HVAC-EMT recommends.

>Any special venting requirements?

Not really, currently using 6" double wall chimney.

>Where do you want to get your combustion air?

From the mech room / very "airy" construction (attached garage)

>Any chances you'll want to do radiant for the kitchen or baths in the future, either primary or supplemental floor warming?

I've considered it, but don't think it will be necessary. When I split the downstairs circuit, I may do it with PEX, and that split will occur directly under the bathroom. I could run a few loops in a couple bays between the joists before heading back to the boiler, and run it at high temp.

>If the kitchen were in better balance now, could you see it overheating when full of people or doing major food prep?

No, don't think so, the LR/DR/KIT are all basically one big room.

>-comfort vs efficiency?

efficiency, I don't mind a flannel shirt!

>-serviceability vs efficiency?

serviceability.

>-short term costs vs long term savings?

probably short term, other major expenses are looming, and I don't plan to be here more than another five years (I can dream, can't I ?)

>-simplicity vs flexibility?

I want a simple, flexible system! (shoulda been a politician.)

>Pumps vs ZVs?

I believe pumps are best choice... haven't decided yet.

>Are you going to use setback ?

I do currently.

>Any special outdoor reset features desired?

Such as ?

>How many temperatures for central heating do you expect to run?

Probably just one, boiler temp.

That was fun, how did I do ?
 
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Old 01-07-07, 10:30 AM
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Thanks...

What's your annual heating bill?

What would you estimate for the efficiency of your current system?

Do they have any off hours electric programs there?
 
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Old 01-07-07, 01:10 PM
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Boiler Seal

I'd forget about it on a cold start system. It just don't work so real good that way. For some reason, the stuff likes to stay hot & the hotter, the better.
 
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Old 01-07-07, 04:29 PM
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WHO:
>>What's your annual heating bill?

Not real relevant actually. Remember that this whole darn boiler ordeal started out with a leaking underground tank... I think I burned and leaked about 600 gallons last year.

>>What would you estimate for the efficiency of your current system?

Whatcha mean ? Steady State ??? I'm figuring about 81% based on the last time that a tech actually took a CO2 reading.

>>Do they have any off hours electric programs there?

Only on my water heater. I've got a TOD meter. For a penny and a half a KwH discount, the meter shuts off the heater in the evenings.

Grady: "BOILER SEAL" ...I'd forget about it on a cold start system...

As of this afternoon, it's not cold start no mo' . So, perhaps the boiler seal will be an option now ?

I pulled the tri-dicator and it's well. Installed a Dayton 2E146 low limit control and wired it into the 8184 A'stat. It was fun; here's why.

The well that came with the control was too long to fit without bottoming out in the boiler. I measured the depth of the new well, and the sensing bulb on the control and realized that I had about 5/8" of "extra" well. If I could shorten the new well by that amount, it would fit in the boiler. I unsoldered the copper tube from the brass well adapter, cut off about 5/8", cleaned it up and re-soldered it. Installed new well and control, wired it up, and it's working fine.

Time will tell...
 
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Old 01-07-07, 04:29 PM
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I would not use boiler stop leak unless it was an absolute emergency. You can never really get rid of all of it. The residual is not as harmful if you have an indirect water heater. It would probably negatively affect a domestic coil (which is a dinosaur in my opinion) or a plate type heat exchanger (like on the System 2000) in the new system. Let it leak until you yank it out.

Ken
 
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Old 01-07-07, 04:36 PM
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Boiler Seal

I agree with Ken. Let's see what happens in keeping the boiler hot. A fairly easy way to tell if it is still leaking is to watch the top of the chimney. White vapor (steam) is a pretty good tip off. Don't be fooled by the vapor while the chimney is heating if you have a masonary chimney.
 
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Old 01-07-07, 05:17 PM
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Your fuel costs are almost neutral or actually in favor of electric if you factor all costs in - I'll bet you could even do the overnight rate. The big question is figuring out which will cost more in ten years in relation to the other. All costs factored in. You have very cheap electric rates.
 
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Old 01-07-07, 05:26 PM
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Red face rates

Originally Posted by Who View Post
Your fuel costs are almost neutral or actually in favor of electric if you factor all costs in - I'll bet you could even do the overnight rate. The big question is figuring out which will cost more in ten years in relation to the other. All costs factored in. You have very cheap electric rates.
You can shop around for oil. You can store oil--buy cheap, use later... With gas or electric you're at the mercy of the market rate the day you use it. That's why I kept the wood boiler. I can always burn my furniture for heat when I'm old, gray, broke, taxed to death, and living on cat food.
 
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Old 01-07-07, 05:52 PM
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I agree with radioconnection. Electric rates seem low now but I have seen oil go from $2.45/gal to $1.99 since August. When would that ever happen with electric. When it goes up it stays up. Gas fluctuates but it usually stays too high for too long too. I like the idea of burning up the furniture too.

Ken
 
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Old 01-07-07, 07:32 PM
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I don't know what every place is like.

It's opposite here. I can buy a 5 year fixed rate pricing commodity agreement for gas or electric (although the electric plan has a wart) that covers the commodity price but not distribution (it covers 70% of the bill). With oil there was a service discount but only if you were exclusive and didn't shop around - and they knew. They always delivered the day of a price rise, the fuel costed more than #2 diesel from the pump with supposedly lower taxes (plus you pay 6% on top for tax) - I had two very old tanks that needed to be changed and an insurance company that was already letting me know that the new ones would be cycled out in ten years as well. Not a big enticement to get nice Roth or DeHoust oil tanks.

Other than service upgrade costs for adding an 80amp circuit (for a 20kw boiler), the Trooper's energy + servicing costs favor an electric boiler.

20KW - that's a big load and electric never sounds good in those situations. If I could ever build my concrete-styro-concrete dreamhome, I'd design for such a low load it could be electric or heat pump depending on if its in tundra or swamp. Keep a spare 1 nearby or pipe in 2. 5KW! $1/hr at $0.20...
 
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Old 01-07-07, 07:39 PM
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Unhappy electric rates

We pay through the nose in CT. Our electric rates have literally doubled since the State forced the utilities to sell their generating plants and buy energy on the open market. Besides the price doubling last year, we just had another 8%, with another one scheduled later in the year. Our rates are the highest in the country. No gas service here, rural area. Having an electric boiler as a backup might be a nice advantage.

Right now I can burn wood, coal or oil!
 
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Old 01-07-07, 07:53 PM
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Electric is poised to skyrocket here, and has been for a few years. I just finally broke down and went gas from oil but I did want a modcon and I don't miss the tanks. NG is far cheaper per BTU here and it helps resale value. I've got the parts to switch over the BBQ when the tank finally empties. A gas dryer's next after that I think. Maybe the fireplace too at some point - we have a fireplace with a wood stove insert and almost never use it, and it throws the heat all out of balance - I'm also no longer game to go help someone get rid of their old maple tree.

The gas meter should be readable from inside the house... I could never clock consumption very closely on oil, I used a piece of dowling until I dropped it in one day.
 
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Old 01-07-07, 08:53 PM
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I forgot to figure in "delivery charges"... my electric rates are actually closer to 0.10 / KwH .

Who, ya got me curious about them electric boilers now... time to Google!

An elapsed time meter could be used to gauge oil consumption fairly accurately I think. Even and old electric clock would work as long as you remember to record the time and reset the clock to 12:00 at least every 12 hours of run time.
 
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Old 01-07-07, 10:18 PM
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thermolec is a brand and the web site uses that com

3413btu per kw, maybe 2 9kw units or one 18kw

*************************

Okay, so let's say you are spending $2,000 a year now on oil. At $2.59/gallon and an effective seasonal efficiency of 70% (this is probably high when you factor in stack losses, inside air for combustion and poor running in shoulder seasons), you set a net requirement for 78 million BTUs a season.

At 10 cents a kWh that would cost you $2,280 at 100% efficiency per your meter. Add $25 per percent if you think it's lower. Once you start factoring in oil service parts, amortize the oil tank and possibly cheaper home insurance... and I would guess that it is pretty reliable which counts for something as well. Still it would be a lot nicer if this was a 20K heatloss.

It's $1,824 at 8 cents.

*************************

Those Thermolecs have outdoor reset standard. Laing appears to make a very nice unit as well. I could PM you a link for that or you could see a post on the Wall where Andrew Hagen attached a PDF for this boiler.

Food for thought... but those electric rates could skyrocket.
 
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Old 01-08-07, 07:02 AM
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For the crisis, I think you're already doing it: the triple stat and keep it warm. See how it goes.

Moderate: simple boiler swap, maybe some minor alterations to the piping to get to pumping away.

Moderate+: boiler swap, plus a better set of manifolds.

Better: get that piece of plywood backer and start doing your layout. Pipe it up with black iron. Extra 4" nipple with end cap on the end of each manifold to accommodate future system expansion (e.g., if not doing the indirect now -- I'd put off the indirect as long as possible given a) heater is working and b) for the moment, relatively cheap electric).

Got some pics of the overall boiler room? What kind of space have we got to work with here? What's the existing piping look like?

In general, for any boiler swap I would go with a better boiler first and worry about the details/quality of the piping later. With your skills, piping shouldn't be a problem to address down the road. But you've only got one shot to get a good boiler.

If you've got about 88,000 BTU/hr of radiation (160 ft * 550 BTU/hr) and have plans for another 15,000, then obviously a boiler in the 100k range would be plenty for the radiation and an indirect.

If going ODR, then think total package price. A good boiler plus an ODR control (like a Burnham with a tekmar) might be as much or more than a good boiler with ODR more or less built-in (like a Buderus with a Logamatic). Haven't priced this, but you get the idea.

For controls, you might also go with a Taco SR-50x-EXP in which case you already need the zone control, and the EXP allows you to simply plug in a PC700 ODR control at some point later when the budget permits.

OK, gotta run. Hope this helps a bit.
 
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Old 01-08-07, 07:03 PM
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Cool Fuggeddaboudit!

You have been thinking about replacing it anyway, so start saving your $$ and design the system the way you want it. Pretend you never saw the leak. Chances are, it will take a couple years for that little leak to get to the point where something really needs to be done. Spend the money on a system that is efficient and low maintenance. Viessmann and Buderus are the best as far as I am concerned (Biasi looks good too, but I haven't worked on them enough to give a definite answer). Riello makes a really nice burner with pre-purge, post-purge, and a high pump pressure. Carlin and Beckett make some good burners too, but make sure they have the clean-cut pump and a pre/post purge control. If you are going to wait on the indirect, make sure you pipe for it and have an extra bank in your zone control.
 
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Old 01-08-07, 08:39 PM
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I like warm start!

Since my system never had the flo-controls, and the upstairs is really warm with the warm start setup, I closed the balancing valve all the way. There is of course _some_ bleed through, so a little heat still goes up. It's enough so far to be very comfortable. I'm not getting much gravity flow at all in the downstairs loop, a little, and enough to keep the thermostat from calling. As it stands now, the gravity flow I'm getting is apparently just about balanced with the heat loss at this outdoor temp (40*) I had to force a heat call just to make sure the new control worked as it should. This might actually be saving some oil? Workin' like a po' man's outdoor reset. Gravity flow and low limit, yeah, that's the ticket!

I've got one installer interested in the job already.

I'm sorta thinking G115 right now, cuz there is a distributor locally.
Getting prices on the Loggy too... and I understand that it can be retro-fitted after installation... is that correct ?

Don't think this guy will have a problem with me doing the manifolds and such, so should save some big bucks there.

I've cleared the entire wall adjacent to the boiler. I've got a 4' wide by 6' tall area to place the manifolds. I'm planning on setting up the manifolds with 5 tees each, using 1-1/4 black iron (USA!), transitioning to copper after the ?circs or ?ZV's . Even if for some dumb reason I go ahead and use valves, I'll leave room for future switch to circs.

XIPHIAS: you used 4" nipples I think you sed ????

Zones will be 1. Downstairs 2. Upstairs 3. Indirect 4. Future 5. Future future

I seem to recall that Buderus recommends the use of a full size bypass ? I need to look at the manual again. I think I'm gonna install the danfoss TV bypass valve in the return. (that might not be a good idea though, if it clashes with the logomatic ???)

The indirect loop... should that be 1" pipe ?

I'm first gonna get my order in for the iron stuff... figure I'll get that stuff and dry fit everything to see how it's gonna fit in the space. Kinda hard visualizing this stuff ... need to have hardware in my hands! I'll get as far as I can get installing the new piping and wiring without having to cut in, then when warm wx comes along (maybe cold wx won't this year ?) finish the job.

HVAC, the G115 can be ordered with the Riello burner?

If the installer pulls a permit for the job, that should include the work I do, right ? The inspector dude is gonna look at the whole job when he signs off, right ?

I need to call the building dept and find out if chimney replacement would need a seperate permit, or maybe I should just keep my mouth shut ?

Ok, think I'll shut my mouth now,
Thanks guys!
 
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Old 01-09-07, 08:21 PM
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Elapsed time meter... or ... Doomsday Clock

I tapped into the burner circuit to operate this clock as an elapsed time meter. Since it only runs when the burner is firing, it will give an indirect, accurate measure of oil consumption. If I can find daily degree day date on-line, I'm gonna do some K-factor tracking. I guess I could calculate degree days myself... I do have a min-max thermometer.

How's that for "high tech" eh PeTe ?

-
 

Last edited by NJT; 01-29-09 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 01-09-07, 08:56 PM
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Thumbs up Yes, Yes, and Yes

The G-115 runs the best with the riello, The logomatic can be added later...it just will require rewiring part of the boiler, indirect should be piped with 1". The iron manifolds come in a wide spread, but may be special order. I prefer them because the regular ones require the circ's to be at a 45 degree angle as to not hit each other and allow access to the electrical cover. It is possible to get them with 1 1/4" supply and 4-3/4" legs with 1-1" leg for the indirect (then you can tell your friends you had them custom made). As for the piping/permit, it will depend on what state you are in. If you are in NJ, then I am not sure. What kind of chimney is going in? Bypass??? No. Do you mean primary/secondary piping? If so, It is a good way of doing it and you wouldn't need the steel manifolds. I most likely will do it that way on my boiler when I get around to replacing it. Bypass loops are used when you have a low mass boiler that you are tying into a high mass system to prevent boiler shock. Do you have a fax? Send me a PM if you would like me to draw you out a schematic of how you could do it.
 
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Old 01-10-07, 04:06 PM
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HVAC, sent ya a PM ...

I'm gonna pipe a bypass regardless, sure I may not need it, and if so, then I just close the valve. But if I find later down the road that I do need it for some reason, then it sure will be nice to just be able to reach over and open a valve up.

I've decided to enclose the headers and stuff in a shallow cabinet on the wall. Don't want to scare off potential buyers with all that "Titanic" piping and pumping! The door will just be a "lift-off" piece of 1/4" plywood.

Looking at the Raven headers... yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. The price is sure attractive when you consider getting all the iron together, spending the time, etc, etc, the <less than $100 sure looks good! Thanks Xiph for posting that link.

HVAC, I'm going to replace the existing insulated double-wall that's there now. Still not sure if it needs to be moved, I'm gonna wait and talk to the install guy, see what he thinks, but it _does_ need to be replaced.

I know P/S is the only way to go if installing radiant... which I'm not planning on doing. I also know it's the only way to get full ODR. I think I'd be happy enough with a partial ODR. If I did decide to add radiant later, could I use the output of the indirect to heat the radiant loop ? ( I understand it might mean not as much hot water for household use, but is it even feasible ?) What if one just added another indirect to source the radiant loop ?

HVAC, you sed I don't want to do P/S in black iron ? Is there a reason it should not be done ?

Here's what I'm thinking: Piping a normal zoned, boiler temp, system. Designing it with a pair of close-spaced tees (or a Webstone). Maybe even installing the injection piping and capping it for future use. Later, the current primary loop could become the secondary loop, and a new primary loop be connected to the capped lines. The way it's gonna be laid out hopefully will make this real easy to do the re-work later.

my posts are too long...
 
  #26  
Old 01-10-07, 05:39 PM
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NJ-T, you know it wouldn't be hard to pipe it so that the P/S only requires closing 1 valve and opening 2 others and flicking a switch (to let the P/S circ have power when called).
 
  #27  
Old 01-10-07, 05:51 PM
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Full size bypass??? Why?

"I seem to recall that Buderus recommends the use of a full size bypass ? I need to look at the manual again. I think I'm gonna install the danfoss TV bypass valve in the return. (that might not be a good idea though, if it clashes with the logomatic ???)"

JeFf..

I think the full size bypass is going to be totally redundant if you use the Danfoss TV. BTW, I am putting mine (TV) the return--I figure a happy boiler is worth more a than percent or two of fuel savings, esp. if the thing soots up and I lose the efficiency for other reasons into the season.

From what I've seen, you'll need a throttle valve on the supply or return along with the valve on the bypass, both valves are used to balance the flow through the bypass and boiler. I also see Burnham advises on not using a bypass on the indirect--there piping has the bypass on the system, and they use other boiler tappings for the indirect. Why, I don't know!

PeTe
 
  #28  
Old 01-10-07, 09:33 PM
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Who, I'm not sure why you would want a "convertible" system like that ? Once you pipe it for P/S, why would you need to switch back ?

pEtE, I didn't mean to imply that the FSB was going to be in addition to the TV . No, I was thinking I would use the 1-1/4 " valve on the return. But, then I got to thinking some more and realized that you would have to build a bypass _around the TV valve_ if you decided not to use it. If you had a cold system, AND the throttling valve in the bypass were closed, you wouldn't have any flow, cuz the TV would be closed to the return manifold, and the throttle valve would be closed to the supply . ?? is that right ? If my thinking is correct, then you would need an alternate route for the return back to the boiler. A bypass around a bypass...

Yer talking about the MPO ? I understand that the reason they do that is because the standard return is designed with an "injection nipple" and the return water comes in to the boiler around the middle. The injection nipple causes the relatively cool water returning to mix with the hot water in the center of the boiler rather than the cooler water at the bottom. Less chance for the cooler return water to have any significant impact on shock to the boiler, or condensation issues. Presumably the return from the indirect will never be _that_ cool, and sending it back to the bottom of the boiler has the same effect as the standard return, but in reverse. The warmer return from the indirect warms the cooler water on the bottom.

First full 24 hours with the elapsed timeclock... burner ran for 2.85 hours, burning 3.56 gall (assuming 1.25 gph per nozzle spec). I had a high ODT of 40.1 and a low of 31.8, works out to 29 degree days, divided by 3.56 gall, I get a K factor of 8.14 . That's not too bad considering.

I can't see any evidence of continued leaking in the boiler. I'm beginning to wonder if it really was leaking, or if I was seeing condensation /?/?/

OH, one more thing - I installed a green LED circuit on the circ pump so I can tell at a glance if the burner running is a T'stat call, or a LL call. LED on + T'stat call, circ runs - LED off = LL call, no circ . Parts needed, LED, 7.5K 1/2W resistor, 1N4005 diode, wire, heat shring tubing... nicest part about it ? I got _paid_ for building it. (me? goof off at work? me? NEVER! ha ha ha )
 
  #29  
Old 01-10-07, 09:53 PM
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11,376/SF (SF of conditioned full height space)

if you have 3,000 sqft of full height conditioned space then you'd be 3.8 BTUs per DD per SF.


I'm curious... I've been around 4.8 since mid-dec. I am keeping the house warmer and would really like to hit 4. Technically, I really should include a BTU factor for heating related electricity in this factor. Some of those exotic super insulated homes that are microzoned with injection pumping and constant circ and everything must almost make electric BTUs half the heat... ;-)

The P/S convertible would just allow you to change things around... maybe one works better in the shoulder season... one works better if you're away for 2 weeks.
 
  #30  
Old 01-11-07, 12:59 PM
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TV Bypass

"PEtE, I didn't mean to imply that the FSB was going to be in addition to the TV . No, I was thinking I would use the 1-1/4 " valve on the return. But, then I got to thinking some more and realized that you would have to build a bypass _around the TV valve_ if you decided not to use it. If you had a cold system, AND the throttling valve in the bypass were closed, you wouldn't have any flow, cuz the TV would be closed to the return manifold, and the throttle valve would be closed to the supply . ?? is that right ? If my thinking is correct, then you would need an alternate route for the return back to the boiler. A bypass around a bypass..."

Jeff, no expert, but here's my take:

A bypass simply shunts some of the return water around the boiler allowing the boiler to reach a higher internal temperature. I think the idea is to adjust both valves until the boiler reaches a stable 150 degree temperature.

The TV bypass is a completely different animal, and is located after the circulator. The supply is pumped/diverted to the return until the return temp starts climbing above 140 degrees, at that time the valve opens and the supply is allowed to start flowing towards the system. The circulator ensures the supply water flows through the TV, the water temp determines which direction it goes in.

Problems: Having a manual bypass around the TV is probably a good idea for several reasons. 1: in case of burner failure, you can use the circulator to continually run water through the SYSTEM by opening the bypass. 2: I may need the manual bypass when I need to gravity feed on the solid fuel boiler. 3: The TV valve looks to be like the ones used in car radiators, if the darn thing ever dies it would be nice to be able to bypass the TV until a replacement is obtained.

Pete
 
  #31  
Old 01-12-07, 06:03 PM
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Right... as I understand it, the TV is a thermostatically controlled 3-way mixing valve ? So, when it's below setpoint, the bypass is open, and the return is CLOSED ?

This is what I don't know about that valve. Are both of the inlet ports modulated proportionally to each other ? or is the return port always open to the boiler, and only the bypass port modulates ?

I'm also not quite sure I understand why there is a circuit setter recommended in the bypass line in addition to the TV. Is this so you can set up the flow such that the TV is within it's "range" ?

If the TV _is_ a 3-way mixing valve, _and_ the system were cold, then the bypass port would be full open, and the return port fully closed.

next, if there were a heat call, and the circ ran, it would be dead headed, both valves would be closed and nowhere to run...

That's why I thought about the TV bypass circuit. You might want to do that if you discovered you didn't need the bypass at all in the future. But, since you need to do that anyway in order to use yer wood boiler, then it's moot I think.

Kinda gettin' off topic a bit I guess... oh well ...

One other thing I thinkin' 'bout with that valve:

What if it fails ? How hard is it gonna be to change out ? I was thinking that unions would be nice on all three ports, just in case ... OVERKILL ???
 
  #32  
Old 01-12-07, 06:08 PM
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Who

>>>Technically, I really should include a BTU factor for heating related electricity in this factor.

I've wondered how many heat BTU's the fridge adds to the room ?

>>The P/S convertible would just allow you to change things around... maybe one works better in the shoulder season... one works better if you're away for 2 weeks..

You got a drawing of this ? can ye E it to me ? or photobucketit ?
 
  #33  
Old 01-12-07, 07:01 PM
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Danfoss

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
Right... as I understand it, the TV is a thermostatically controlled 3-way mixing valve ? So, when it's below setpoint, the bypass is open, and the return is CLOSED ?

This is what I don't know about that valve. Are both of the inlet ports modulated proportionally to each other ? or is the return port always open to the boiler, and only the bypass port modulates ?

I'm also not quite sure I understand why there is a circuit setter recommended in the bypass line in addition to the TV. Is this so you can set up the flow such that the TV is within it's "range" ?

If the TV _is_ a 3-way mixing valve, _and_ the system were cold, then the bypass port would be full open, and the return port fully closed.

next, if there were a heat call, and the circ ran, it would be dead headed, both valves would be closed and nowhere to run...

That's why I thought about the TV bypass circuit. You might want to do that if you discovered you didn't need the bypass at all in the future. But, since you need to do that anyway in order to use yer wood boiler, then it's moot I think.

Kinda gettin' off topic a bit I guess... oh well ...

One other thing I thinkin' 'bout with that valve:

What if it fails ? How hard is it gonna be to change out ? I was thinking that unions would be nice on all three ports, just in case ... OVERKILL ???
The SYSTEM return is FULLY CLOSED below 140 degrees. The Supply from the boiler is directly pumped back to the return on the boiler through the TV, with NO flow going to the system. From what I gather the valve starts to open at 140, allowing some system flow, and should be fully open at 158 at which point most of the flow goes to the system. I'll tell you more when I get mine piped in the spring. I'm not sure if it closes off the bypass port when it is at operating temp. I suspect it doesn't. The front plate on the valve is removable to access the thermal cartridge... It looks to be field replaceable, BUT I don't know if the part is sold in the US?? I would advise unions, and I would include a bypass ball valve around the TV incase of failure and for the other reasons I mentioned. I don't know Jeff. Solve one problem, create two others? Can't win, can we? Regarding the Circuit Setter, I picked one up, and I guess the Danfoss instructions pretty much explain how to adjust it, if need be..

PeTe
 
  #34  
Old 01-12-07, 09:07 PM
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PSConv

picture your closely spaced tees with close verticle drops
these lead to the boiler
the PONCHOVILLA is upstream of the zone cirxs
i'd do parallel primary for the indirect
okay so near the tees one side has a circ
put a bypass from before the circ to that side of the tee
the bypass has a valve
you also need a valve between the bypass on main and tees
you could use the circ isoflanges or add a ball valve before it

then the water comes in the return through the boiler and then the whole ps is bypassed and the flow goes into a tee after the closely spaces one with a closed ball valve stopping it from going through the other closely spaced tee -yeah i should've posted as pic... it's tough here


a good fridge is $5/month (250btu/hr) and a bad one is $20 (1,000btu/hr)
 
  #35  
Old 01-13-07, 04:41 PM
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I can't seem to get my mind's eye around yer words Who...
can ya skan a scetch ?
 
  #36  
Old 01-13-07, 04:49 PM
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radioconnection

I guess I can't figure why you would need the circuit setter if the TV is fully modulating, but if it don't close the bypass completely, then I can understand the need for the extra valve. You might just want to throttle that flow.
 
  #37  
Old 01-13-07, 05:07 PM
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Tv

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I guess I can't figure why you would need the circuit setter if the TV is fully modulating, but if it don't close the bypass completely, then I can understand the need for the extra valve. You might just want to throttle that flow.
I guess the bypass port remains open, even when the temperature is high enough to fully open the system return port. I don't think you need full flow through the bypass to get it to work; the way I read it's used to restrict the bypass flow to ensure the water does flow through the system when the valves open--path of least resistance? Danfoss says to use the valve only if the water doesn't go through the system. It looks like some of the supply will always be shunted back to the supply. Perhaps not the worst thing that could happen??? I don't like needing to valve around it to maintain my gravity feed options...
 
  #38  
Old 01-13-07, 05:30 PM
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TV valve

Troop... I get the feelin' I'm gonna be the FIRST guinea pig ever to try one of these valves in these parts!!!! I'm getting an awful feeling not too many folks are actually using them.
 
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