Hello,
Fall 2005 Had a Crown BSI 138SN, standing pilot, natural gas steam boiler and a 75 gal A.. Smith gas water heater installed. Immediately after install with first run of boiler there was a very loud banging noise coming from the pipes. The installers stated it was a water hammer, put in some boiler cleaner told us to let that circulate for two months then change out water, which we did. Gas company came out, and tightened up some loose piping, there were some gas leaks. The banging persists. Installers insists that dirt from old pipes is clogging new boiler and that old pipes should be replaced. But he does say the banging is in the pipes and not in the boiler. The noise is so loud sometimes that is seems something is going to just burst through the walls. HELP!! Any ideas out there? Thank You for your time.

 

The old system didn't have this problem ?

If not, I'd look real hard at whatever piping was changed to incorporate the new boiler into the system.

The guys that know steam will be along soon... they will probably ask about how often you "blow down" the system, and stuff like that.

What color is the water in the gauge glass ?

 

Hello,
Thanks for your response. The old system never once had this problem. The water in the guage is clean as can be, it is clear and I see no sediment whatsoever. The heat comes up well but when it does the noises are so severe that sometimes I turn it down because it really sounds like something is going to explode.
Cordially,
Yolanda

 

At what level in the sight glass is the water? Does the water level in the sight glass surge up & down when the boiler is heating?

 

The new install changed the way the boiler was piped. The most likely cause is that one of the pipes is no longer pitched correctly back to the boiler.
Boiler manufacturers are specific about the height of the header, etc for a steam system.
The banging is mostlikely the steam picking up condenstae that is pooling and throwing against an ell or other fitting. If you follow the pipes to locate the banging, see if you find a pipe (probably a header that isn't pitched correctly.

 

Hello,
The water level in the glass is midway, and it does not surge either direction with the heating going on or off.
Thank you all for the input. I will definitely try and trace the noise, hopefully this will help. I will keep you posted.
Cordially,
Yolanda

 

I checked the pipes and some of the distances that the installation book recommends are different than what is actually installed. The water feed pipe is supposed to be 24 inches below the pipe running to it and it is only 23 inches. I am also investigating the header angle as suggested. What are some other things I can say to the installers to get them here and to have them honor their warranty?
Any help is appreciated.
Help

 

You have bad steam traps in your system. Get another contractor.

Water hammer is caused by condensate in your pipes. When you start adding steam to piping with water in it, the water begins to flash to steam which causes banging. This can get so bad it can break pipes, especially when a slug of water hits an elbow in the pipe. If it sounds dangerous it just might be dangerous.

A proper steam trap setup will drain the condensate so this won't happen. You apparently have some traps stuck shut or you just don't have enough steam traps. Did these people remove much piping when they put the new system in? If so, they didn't replace traps where needed.

In the meantime, try starting your boiler up very slowly. Or you can try partially shutting the steam valve leaving your boiler. You will normally still have plenty of steam supply but the warm up rate will be slow enough to prevent the hammer. This won't fix the basic problem, but it may help you get by until it can be fixed.

Hope this helps.

Reed Sprung
xxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Boiler Operations, Maintenance and Training

 

Also, you can tell if a trap is stuck shut in a couple of different ways.

1. When the system is hot, measure the temperature at the trap. If the temp is low, let's say below 180 F before the trap, then the trap is probably stuck shut.

2. There should be a strainer installed prior to the trap. If you drain the strainer and a significant amount of water comes out (while your system is running) then your trap is stuck shut and needs repair or replacement. Be careful when you do this. The drainage, whether water or steam, will be very hot.

Reed

 

A couple of pictures of the boiler and near boiler piping would be very helpful for us. A steam boiler should be cleaned and skimmed after installation and the condensate should be run to a drain for a couple of days or until it clears up. I have never seen a brand new system start up clean yet. Boiler cleaner isn't a great choice either. It is better than nothing but all it does is sink the dirt to the bottom and chase the oil around. It will eventually come back to cause a problem. Some of the installation dimensions you mentioned are very important and cannot be overlooked. There is some special piping that needs to be done on the hartford loop and equalizer too so maybe there is more going on there than meets the untrained eye. We can help.

I agree with the others who say don't let the hammering go on too long because parts of the system can be damaged and parts ruined by the pressure pulse.

Ken

 

Thank You all for the input, I will definitely look into the traps right away.
Yolanda

 

Hello,
I wanted to attach some pictures I have taken as requested, but the bottom of the page says I am not allowed attachments, can this be fixed?
Thank You all for Your time,
Yolanda

 

Yolanda, you can post an url by using photobucket or the like.

 

Hi,
I see your response, but I don't know exactly how to go about doing that, can you provide further instruction on how to get the URL.
Thank You for Your time and patience,
Yolanda

 

I hear your pain about posting pictures on here.. This web site still won't allow us.. ugghhh..

Anyway, copy the host site link that you got the photo on, and paste it here. for us to see we have to copy the link and then pate it on our web address to see it. I know it's a lot of work, and lot of us made comments to the site and seems like no one wants to turn on the photo posting for us. :-(

 

I tried to publish to the web but was having difficulty. If you can view them here great, please let me know.
Thank You,
Yolanda

 

you'll have to manually upload and publish the photos to an online hosting company. go to photobucket.com and follow the instructions. It's quite simple once you do it.

 

http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/ That is the url for the page where the photos are listed.

If you can't access that, below are some urls for seperate pics:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0136.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0135.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0134.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0133.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0132.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0126.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0123.jpg


http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0124.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0125.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0127.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/yogi1313/PDR_0122.jpg



I hope these pictures help after all your help getting them here.

Much thanks,
Yolanda

 

There's a few things I noticed that should be attended to...

There's no pipe on the safety relief valve on the side of the water heater.

Should be a pipe extending down to within 6" of the floor.

I'm a little concerned with the flue pipe on the water heater also... I always thought they should never be pitched down... and it looks like it's pitched down quite a lot ! Is that OK guys ?

I know that in my area (and I think most? areas) codes specify that flue piping must be 18" from combustibles, is there 18" clearance between the flue and the ceiling ?

Yolanda, did you say you have CO detectors in the home ?

I've also read that copper should not be used on a steamer, especially for the near boiler piping.

Ken? Furd?, what's a Hartford Loop ? and should there be one on this installation ?

Where does the pipe coming off the return near water level go to ?

 

The pictures tell the story. There is no good way to say this. You got a horrible job. If you have not yet paid the contractor, please hold off. I would rather discuss this by phone because I hate to type and have a lot to say but I will attempt some of it here and now. Copper pipe is not the right material to use for the steam pipes. The supply pipe coming off the back of the top of the boiler is incorrect from the point where it leaves the boiler and all the way up. The equalizer is supposed to be piped off of the supply after the main and from the bottom. That would prevent wet steam from getting up to the radiators The water droplets in the glass show that there is a problem with the steam production. What you need is a re-installation. If you try to band-aid this installation, you will be haunted with one problem after another until you go crazy. In addition, fuel consumption will be way above normal and heat output will be poor and noisy. I don't know where you are located but you will need to find a knowledgable steam installer to fix the problem. If you need help locating one, PM me and I will help. The only thing you could say that would make me feel better is if you said you put it in yourself or it was done free by the local daycare center.

Ken

 

While we are at it, the reverse pitch on the gas water heater flue pipe does not conform to building or fire codes.

Ken

 

Yolanda, was this installation inspected by local building officials ?

 

Thank You all so much for the information. We did not have inspection post install. The gas company did come out and checked the unit for leaks and there were a few that they repaired. Thank Goodness for that.
This was a professional install. I am still under warranty for the install and parts and labor, but going back to the scene of the crime would be pretty stupid. I guess I could look for some recourse. Is it possible for everyone at one company to suck?! Could calling management get me anywhere?

I want to thank you all so much for your assistance, it has been invaluable. I always knew something was up, but to get ripped that really sucks.
I live in Brooklyn, NY by the way. I will check a website that was recommended here at the forum for someone reputable.

Much Thanks to all.
Yolanda

 

Honestly, I doubt it will do you much good, but you should give them the chance to make it right. With the kind of job you got, you are probably going to get a runaround. If you do get the runaround, or they do not do the job right, you need to contact the local licensing agency. As much as I hate to say it, you should probably also contact an attorney if the installing company does not re-do the install the way it should be done. Make sure you save all your pictures, the installation manual, & any other paperwork you have pertaining to the installation.

 

Hi Grady,
I was just discussing that with my mother. We are going over to the office tomorrow and having a discussion with this company. I will be insisting on them repairing what is wrong and I certainly do not want to see any of the guys that were here previously. I have a feeling I will have a problem too, and I fortunately do have all the paperwork, pictures, et al that will be needed.
Thank You so much,

Everyone, Thank YOu, your help has been invaluable.
Will keep you posted on my saga.
Yolanda

 

Hi,
I am going to go see these guys tomorrow, and when I speak to them and tell them that copper piping should not have been used, I would like to know the rationale as to why, I have been told that black iron would be the piping to use, but what I would like to know is why is copper bad or inappropriate other than cost effectiveness.
Thank You,
Yolanda

 

Copper headers cannot handle the expansion and contraction of steam systems. They tend to work themselves apart and leak. Threaded steel is the right thing to use.

That is a truly sorry install. I really feel badly for you. I hope you can resolve this with the installing company. Otherwise, get a lawyer. Or threaten to.

If you have or can download the installation manual for the boiler, it might help to read it a bit (even if you don't completely understand it). They probably have diagrams of how they want things done. None of which were done in your installation.

Among other things, the downward sloping water heater flue is not code and a definite hazard. If you do not already have carbon monoxide (CO)detectors in the house, PLEASE get them right away. Any hardware store, Wal-Mart, or whatever will have them. They can save your life.

Please do take KField up on his offer to help by phone.

Good luck.

 

Hi,
Thanks for that answer, I will have some educated ammunition when I go in to talk to these guys tomorrow. I will see how it goes and then I probably will take the advice and talk on the tele.
These guys came in to clean the chimney and we knew we had and old system and they pressured my parents... you know how the old story goes... your system is very old, inefficient, ready to die, should really be replaced, give you a good deal, blah blah blah...
Caveat Emptor!!
I was uneasy, thought we should wait a bit. But anyway, I will let you all know how it goes.
God bless, and Thank You.
Yolanda

 

Nothing for me to add, the people that did this installation (and the water heater, too) should be shot.

 

Hey Everyone,
Address of this place is in my neighborhood. When I drive up to it, the storefront is something else, so I call and get the service and say to the guy where are you I am right out front and see a storefront house of worship?! He says we are downstairs, which of course I don't really see an enterance for. So I give start to give him my gripe over the phone, asking for the owner by the name I got off the Better Business Bureau website, once I mention copper piping he takes my info and says he is not in yet and will get back to me right away. That was 11 am. At 2 pm I call back and the same guy answers and tells me that the guy I needs to speak with won't be in after all because he was at the doctor and is sick but will definitely be available to me at 10 am tomorrow please call back then. I will do that. If there is reply then, I will find that enterance, I know the neighborhood well.
It is probably a basement set up. I am tenacious at best.
I will keep you all posted.
Warm regards,
Yolanda

 

While they are running you around, get the inspector over there. You have at minimum one significant code violation in the water heater flue.

The general term for whoever is in charge of inspecting and approving such things is "Authority Having Jurisdiction" or AHJ. It might be the plumbing inspector, or maybe the Fire Department, or the building inspector.

Having an official visit and record of any violations should help.

I have some other suggestions that I will send via private message.

 

This is my first post to this forum and I haven't read the whole thread, but seeing those pictures, I'm compelled to comment.

The people who installed that equipment are completely unqualified to assemble fuel-burning appliances and they may be a danger to the people by whom they are contracted.

There is also no evidence they have any idea how steam is produced and distributed in a heating system.

Please have it all reinstalled properly

 

Hi All,
Just spoke to the owner of the company, and told him the littany of problems wrong with his company's install. He told me that he does over 300 installs a year with copper piping and has never had a problem. I of course added the word "yet", and explained to him what could happen to the pipes (since I have now become so educated, thank you very much).
He wants to send his guys out to take a look, but he said something very telling on the phone that makes me distrust him even more than I could possibly already... He said he wants to know who is "condemning" his work?!

Right there he is showing that he doesn't believe there is anything wrong with what he does or has done. I told him that an engineer looked at it, and that I will have a fire marshall and building inspector come in as well, he said that the marshall and inspector will do me no good...

We ended it with me telling him that I will have the repair done independent of him and that I will be expecting payment of that repair by him. He said that he would like to see an engineer's report if I expect him to pay for a repair. I will be getting that report to him, and I have a scheduled appointment with a REPUTABLE installer.

Warm Regards and much Thanks,
Yolanda

 

Hi All,
Just want to let you know that I had a reputable company come in yesterday, and of course they saw the horror! Everything that you all said was wrong with it, is what he said was wrong with it. I felt pretty good having a bit of knowldege behind me, Thank You!
Anyway, the repairs will begin next week, and I will have to communicate with the original company further to see where they stand. If they push it to a court case, oh well. I will do what I have to.
Thank You all again, your help has been invaluable.
Yolanda

 

Who's making the repair? The first company who installed it, or the 2nd one who saw the nightmare?

 

The second, reputable company. Even if the first company wanted to honor the warranty after the phone conversation I had with him I could not trust him to do it, because he really thought their was nothing wrong with his job. Can't trust that, he thought it was perfectly fine to use copper piping...
Yolanda

 

Just want to let you all know that we won the law suit against the original company and recouped all the money.
Thank you all for you help, who knows what would have happened without the wonderful advice I received here.

 

How about a few "after" pictures to show how a steam boiler should be installed?

 

PTL! Thank you Yolanda for coming back and letting us know that all turned out well. I'm sorry that you had to go to all that trouble to make things right...

I also hope that somebody is going to follow up with these guys and stop what they are doing, and backtrack to look at the 300 'other' installs they did... I'm willing to bet that there are many people's lives in danger from their con-job work ethics, or lack thereof.

 

Glad to hear you won your case. It's a darned shame it had to come to the legal system but those who don't want to do things right need to pay.
I too would like to see some "after" pix.