Energy Kinetics System 2000 Boiler

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  #1  
Old 10-25-07, 05:19 AM
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Energy Kinetics System 2000 Boiler

Has anyone had a System 2000 boiler installed in their home? Does it do what Energy Kinetics claims? Oil in my area is now up to $2.60 a gallon C.O.D. The more oils goes up, the quicker the payback on an expensive efficient system will be. My HVAC guy gave me an estimate of $6,000.00 for the System 2000. Another HVAC guy came in at $9,000.00 (He must me off is meds, lol). I put a new Burnham V83 boiler in my previous home myself for $1,700 for the boiler plus $500 for all the other parts, valves, controllers, etc., but I can't buy the Sytem 2000 as I am not a factory trained System 2000 installer. Any comments on this boiler would be greatly appreciated. I currently have a 1957 American Standard Arcoliner with a tankless coil in my 1500 sq ft ranch in New York. I use about 700 gallons of oil p/year. Energy Kinetics claims I'll reduce oil usage to 450 gallons a year.
 
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  #2  
Old 10-25-07, 09:13 AM
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System 2000

The EK is a very efficient boiler, no doubt about it, but my experience with them is not great when it comes to durability & some parts are only available thru EK.
Nine grand sounds awfully high what was he quoting on?
 
  #3  
Old 10-25-07, 09:31 AM
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I have yet to hear any feedback on anyone who has installed the Peerless Pinnacle Oil boiler but if I didn't have natural gas I would have probably had one of these installed in my home.

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/

To add to what Grady said about the EK and I think he'd agree with me, the EK gets it's efficiencies from tight integration and how it is controlled. As for quality of materials, my purely uneducated and non-professional opinion would that it is actually a bit below par for what's out there.

That said, if it is fully serviced on a regular basis it can be an excellent way to heat your home and domestic water but if like many people it gets ignored until it fails or gets serviced infrequently it could be a poor choice in boilers.

Is natural gas an option there?
 
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Old 10-25-07, 03:07 PM
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The burnham MPO and their stone lined indirect would be an efficient operation. The MPO operates about 87%AFUE. Worth a look.
 
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Old 10-25-07, 03:30 PM
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Yeah, that MPO is on the top of my christmas list. Any boiler that appears to be _that_ easy to clean gets my vote every time. And I guarantee it will be installed on a pad a couple feet off the ground too. Those cleanout holes get smaller and closer to the ground on my old system every year!

I doubt you would get 87% in reality though.

Take a look at that new Peerless before you decide too. I'm gonna give it some serious consideration myself ...
 
  #6  
Old 10-25-07, 05:39 PM
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I've looked into every boiler on the market and I am getting discouraged more and more. I often wonder if I should just stick with the old Arcoliner. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Everyone you talk to says it must be eating me out of house and home. However it really isn't. All my neighbors have replaced their boiler over the past few years. We all heat with oil as gas has not come down the road yet. We all have houses between 1500 and 2000 sq ft. Neighbor #1 has an old 1980 Weil-Mclain with a tankless coil. #2 has a Peerless WBV with an indirect from 2001. #3 has a Burnham V83 with a SuperStor indirect from 2000. #4 has a New Yorker with the tankless coil in 2004 when the house was built. And I have the Arcoliner with the coil for winter and a Bock 32 gallon oil fired water heater for summer use when the boiler is turned off. WE ALL USE BETWEEN 700 AND 900 GALLONS OF OIL! Approx 800 gals. for me with the Arcoliner. I am starting to wonder if the cost of a new super efficient boiler for thousands of dollars will take me 15 years to make back by saving 100 gallons (maybe) of oil each year. My house is very well insulated though. I have R-30 in the attic along with new andersen windows and doors. It seems to me that weather proofing probably goes a far longer way than a new boiler.
 
  #7  
Old 10-25-07, 05:52 PM
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Yes. A snazzy new boiler would probably take a decade+ to pay back, especially oil-fired. If you are happy with how the house heats, and maintain the Arcoliner, why not stay with it until it's really time to do it.

Maybe get the attic up to R-49. Do a little more air sealing where you can. Nice job on the windows and doors. You're right -- the building envelope is the place to put emphasis.
 
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Old 10-25-07, 06:35 PM
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To use an analogy that I know is true:

"The cheapest used car is the one you already have"

Now yer making me re-think replacing mine! (especially after I threw a bunch of money at it this year re-building the burner!)
 
  #9  
Old 10-17-09, 09:14 AM
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Talking anyone have problem with oil burner firing

I have a system 2000 model ek-1 I bled line and powered up system all lights are on the control panel so I pushed the emergency reset button nothing happened?? any suggestions?
 
  #10  
Old 10-17-09, 09:38 AM
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Unfortunately, this is one of the drawbacks of 'snazzy'.

You need to call your service guy.
 
  #11  
Old 10-17-09, 05:29 PM
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Ek-1

Is the light labeled "burner" on? If so, you could have a bad relay or (worst case) a bad system manager board. If it's the board be prepared to shell out some coin.
 
  #12  
Old 10-19-09, 07:37 AM
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How old is system? If you have one that was installed since early 1997 it has a digital manager. The manager has a limited lifetime warranty. It's covered in full for the first five years of service. After that the manaufacturer has a rebuild program that gives you a remanned unit at minimal cost with return of the old one.

I do have a System 2000 in my home and have quite a few friends with the system and we all like it very much. Mine has had only minimal service, EOY tuneup, one minor problem last year that was easily rectified. I wouldn't trade it for anything else.
 
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  #13  
Old 11-05-09, 02:04 PM
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cmhrn08.

All lights on the left side means the individual units are calling for heat. If the circulating temperature is at operating temperature, the relays will open the value to each of the zones. When these valves are opened, the lights on the right side will light. As each subsystem is satisfied, the subsystem will remove the 24VAC from the call input, the valve will close and the right side LED will go out.

If there is a system failure, the thermometer type LED display will flash to indicate a fault. What is this flash indication?

Now, if by "all lights on" means that "all lights are on"... and stays on, this is a startup condition with the module. Remove the left side and right side from the control module and insert the printed circuit board to by pass the automatic controller.

Take the module out and inspect for hot spots, open solder holes etc. Do the same on the lower circuit board as well. Even though this circuit maybe drawing current, the solder used in manufacturing appears no to be the correct temperature rating. I've found multiple open solder joints in my boards after 13 yrs of running.

the ek1 will run very nicely but requires maintenance every 6 months.

Replace oil filter. Clean and or replace the nozzle and make sure the tip is not coated with soot.

Typically, the nozzle will clog up and the fine spray will come out as dropletts which can not ignite. When the fire sensor does not see the flame, it will trip the circuit.

Once you get the hang of it, the EK1 system is pretty straight forward.
 

Last edited by DIYrXtreme; 11-05-09 at 02:23 PM. Reason: clarification to all light on needed.
  #14  
Old 11-09-09, 06:06 AM
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I've serviced many dozens of EK's over the years and have never seen one that required service every 6 months. In fact, with the use of a spin on oil filter I've never run across one with a plugged nozzle.

Mine was installed 12 1/2 yrs ago and is serviced every 2 years. The nozzle has been replaced once, "just because."

As far as problems with solder joints on the relay boards, the entire board was redesigned quite a few years ago and included a different manufacturing process which virtually eliminates solder joint failure.

If anyone tells you that a replacement manager costs an arm and a leg do not believe them. Read the system warranty.
 
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  #15  
Old 06-03-10, 07:35 PM
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EK System 2000

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
The EK is a very efficient boiler, no doubt about it, but my experience with them is not great when it comes to durability & some parts are only available thru EK.
Nine grand sounds awfully high what was he quoting on?
Has you experience with the system 2000 been any better over the past 4 yrs? I'm at decision point and I'm leaning toward System 2000 over Biasi
 
  #16  
Old 06-03-10, 07:39 PM
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System 2000

Originally Posted by heatpro View Post
I've serviced many dozens of EK's over the years and have never seen one that required service every 6 months. In fact, with the use of a spin on oil filter I've never run across one with a plugged nozzle.

Mine was installed 12 1/2 yrs ago and is serviced every 2 years. The nozzle has been replaced once, "just because."

As far as problems with solder joints on the relay boards, the entire board was redesigned quite a few years ago and included a different manufacturing process which virtually eliminates solder joint failure.

If anyone tells you that a replacement manager costs an arm and a leg do not believe them. Read the system warranty.
Are you still a fan of the system 2000 ? I'm at decision point and I'm leaning toward System 2000 over Biasi
 
  #17  
Old 06-04-10, 05:35 AM
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EK fan

Yes, I'm still an EK fan. Because I own one and have many friends who have had one installed in their homes, when I read of complaints about it I get curious about what causes their issues. Biggest problem, and I believe this is true with any system, incorrect installation. That includes proper fuel supply and filtration. Most of the systems sold are oil fired. The burner is the same one you'll find on the vast majority of oil systems sold in the US.

The fuel oil sold today is prone to quality issues, sludge buildup being one of them. This calls for better filtration, usually in the form of dual filters especially with an older tank. Anyone burning bio fuel will see more of this since bio tends to act like a solvent.

I just recently retired from burner service after 40 years in the field and noticed over time a change in the fuel. I started installing dual filters, one a little courser, then a finer, spinon type at the burner. Between dual filters and higher pump pressure I put an end to plugged nozzles on any burner I maintained. I mentioned before that I only replaced the nozzle in my own once, "just because". That holds true. I do have one on the shelf, "just in case."

Going back to an earlier post in regard to the burner that was locked out and couldn't be restarted, if the burner locks out and has been in lockout for over 20 minutes, the manager powers all the heating zone outputs and takes away the burner call. It's necessary to repower the manager to restore the burner call.
 
  #18  
Old 06-04-10, 05:57 AM
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System 2000

As a heating professional of 31 years.....

System 2000 is by far the best choice for ROI { return on investment}.

With the exception of the system manager and return sensor, every part on the boiler an Beckett oil burner is " off the shelf" at any heating supply house.

Most systems have cut customers fuel costs by at least 30% or more. It is whisper quiet. I have had many people install the unit because of the family room in the basement and they didnt want the old noisy boiler. The savings to them was just a plus!
Unlimited hot water, YES unlimited.

System 2000 dealers are factory trained and their equipment is only available for purchase thru their dealers to maintain control of qualitiy, professional installations and service.

Clean it every year like any boiler and it will last a lifetime.
The system manager and sensor have a limited 5 year warranty. If there ever was a problem with either part, the boiler can be put in bypass mode to keep the heat and hot water available till they get the part, if they didnt have it on their truck to begin with!

Call Energy Kinetics to get a list of dealers near you and you can deal directly with them.

You wont be dissapointed!
 
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  #19  
Old 06-04-10, 05:49 PM
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4 Years

Yes, over the past few years my experiences with the System 2000 have greatly improved. After learning more about the way systems are supposed to be installed I discovered most of the problems I've experienced were installation related. If you have acidic or water with a high iron content I would look at something other than the standard domestic hot water storage tank. Maybe stainless?
 
  #20  
Old 06-07-10, 05:51 AM
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Storage tanks

There are pros and cons for either type of tank. A standard glass lined tank is less expensive and in almost all cases is a better buy. The stainless tank is more expensive and has no anode rod to check and possibly replace occasionally, BUT, if you have water with a high (over 100 ppm) of chlorides that stainless will turn in to swiss cheese in no time. I believe that every stainless tank mfr has a disclaimer in the warranty that ranges from 90-110ppm of chlorides.

High chloride levels can occur naturally, has happened in some cases where there's a nearby road salt storage facility or there's a malfunctioning water softener.
 
  #21  
Old 09-15-10, 10:56 AM
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System 2000

I had a System 2000 installed in my older home. It replaced a huge old cast iron boiler with a heating coil for domestic HW. I cut the amount of oil I was using on a yearly basis by 58%. I had been forever running out of hot water and that is a thing of the past. I see the payback @ 4-1/2 years with the price of oil running $2.69 in our area in Maine.
So far I couldn't be happier. The system is 1/4 the size of my old boiler, hot water storage tank included.
In the summer, my boiler runs just 15 minutes per day to heat the hot water we use.
The only problem I have ever had with it was one of the circulator pumps had a bearing seize but it was replaced under the warranty within 2 hours of calling the great folks at Maritime Energy, who installed the system.
 
  #22  
Old 10-13-11, 05:42 AM
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System 2000 problems

We purchased a Model EK-1F in Nov. 09, installed by licensed dealer tech. I take a sauna in the basement early in the AM and it faces the boiler. I noticed that the Energy Manager was cycling frequently, sometimes up to 40 minutes. I'm still unclear as to the interrelationships between the boiler water temp, ignition, returning water temp. circulator duration but it seemed as though the exercise to build and deliver heat went on forever. I called the service guys. They came over, unclogged something, mentioned the flu clean out door was ajar, shut it, and left leaving an invoice for service call. The system didn't cycle on and off nearly as much and the delivery of heat was of a longer duration. About a month later same symptoms, same drill, same explanation, same bill. This fall it seems to be reoccurring but this time I want answers. Do you have any idea what might be going on?
PS We do have hard water...
 
  #23  
Old 10-13-11, 07:47 PM
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I fail to see how the flue clean-out door being ajar has anything to do with the frequency at which the boiler cycles. I suggest you call Energy Kinetics & ask them who other dealers are in your area.
 
  #24  
Old 10-14-11, 04:25 AM
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The bottom line here is it is not brand specific to fuel savings. The boiler efficiency difference is not a huge fuel savings. 85% - 95% does not make a real difference. The efficiencies are rated at 120f return temp and 140 supply temp with proper flow rates. If the actual operation is not 120f - 140f temps and the flow rate is not the same as tested the efficiency will not be the same as reported.
When the temp raises above 120f & 140f the efficiencies are going down. If the flow rates are off the efficiencies change.
As we have seen many times here and other websites it is not the brand but the installation.
What really affects the fuel savings?
Reduce heat loss by tightening up home
Proper boiler sizing
Increasing system efficiency/ODR
Proper near boiler piping
Proper flow rates in boiler and system
Combustion testing
Avoiding the use of internal domestic h/w coils
Avoid maintaining boiler water temps
Verifying there is no air in the system - changes flow in system and heat output
 
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  #25  
Old 11-05-11, 08:14 AM
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heat questions for rbeck

rbeck, you seem to have a very experienced prospective on heat.

DO you have any thoughts on a few things

1. Air valves at the high point of each zone or just in a single place?
Does it matter? Can you elaborate on the effect you were talking about.


2. The use of a large thermal storage tank (90 gallons) after the boiler for a residential BASEBOARD system.


3. I agree with your prospective, it seems to be mostly about the house and the system design...I'm Just doing tons of research (not a pro) but that seems to have a HUGE impact on the system overall efficiency. I like the Energy Kinetics as its a cold start and finish, that seems reasonable to me - the tricks of keeping it off the floor as not to heat the basement slab, and purging the heat to the domestic hot water and or last zone all make sense to me....
However I am learning that with pumping technology at higher throughput and constant cycling of the boiler seem to make more of a difference....

Here is where I am at.....Our house is about 3300 Sq ft original HYDROTHERM 110k btu boiler in there and 6 zones from 1979. Hot water has its own 75 gallon tank and burner.

I'm trying to figure out what is the right way to go.

are you familiar with these hybrid type systems?



Any thoughts?

thank you very much

-Perry
 

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  #26  
Old 11-05-11, 02:04 PM
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If i may jump in i have found that the main causes of poor oil fuel economy are over sized units and nozzle's, short cycling of burner the longer it is on the better check the theory of burning oil, no outdoor reset ,not enough zones i have 11 in my house, my burner runs up to an hour at a time on cold days as much as 15 hrs. /day fired with a0.40 nozzle at 140psi.House has in floor panned heat and indirect D.H.W boiler is a cold start 50 yr. old horizontal tube steady state eff. 86% sq ft 3450 heated 2 car garage with loft over top .Amherst N.S. Canada new boilers are not always the answer fuel used to keep house 72F last year 1975 liters or 400 gal imp.Study the theory of burning oil and set up system to comply.
 
  #27  
Old 11-05-11, 03:47 PM
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THank you that is what I am trying to get at :>)

I have natural gas ...but, thats EXACTLY the point....I am learning efficiency is not 100% about "Getting a new boiler" Thats what I am trying to better understand....You have a 50 year old boiler that takes 1/2 the oil to heat a house twice the size of others.....
Thats what I'm talking about!

Any ideas out there for ways to improve efficiency with a natural gas burner would be very much appreciated ...

Thanks guys!

-Perry
 
  #28  
Old 11-05-11, 06:31 PM
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Gas fired condensing units have to be connected to a heating system that can return water to boiler cool enough to keep boiler in the condensing mode and still deliver enough btu or heat to the zones for comfort, Condensing boiler efficiency is measured only when it is condensing.
 
  #29  
Old 10-19-12, 07:44 AM
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Combustion air intake (cai) for energy kinetics system 2000 ek-1 boiler

Back in December of 2011 I had the Energy Kinetics System 2000 Type EK-1 oil-fired bolier installed. At the same time I was removing a wood-burning hydro-hearth (that had a combustion air intake (CAI) system) from my fireplace, thus leaving the CAI available for use with the System 2000’s furnace. In discussion with the installers of the System 2000 I mentioned the now-available CAI and they mentioned that the System 2000 had a CAI system available. The salesperson who surveyed what was required to install the System 2000 in my house never mentioned that a CAI was available for the System 2000.

So I decided to install my own CAI system to feed outside air to the System 2000, but not before investigating what was required. I first called Energy Kinetics. They simply referred me to the original installer. I called them and discussed what I wanted to do. They really didn’t help, accept to say that they would have someone stop by after I completed the installation to assure that I’d done it right. Some help they were. What they could have told me was to refer to the System 2000 Installation Instructions pamphlet that was given to me after the completion of the original installation.

So, after digging out the instruction manual all was revealed.

I had already determined by inspection of the air box surrounding the burner unit that the bottom of the air box was setup to accept a threaded 2” IPS pipe fitting. The instructions confirmed the pipe size, and that PVC was to be used, and even more importantly, specified the distance that the pipe could extend without being detrimental to the volume of air required to properly supply the burner.

It was simple: 20 feet and (5) 90-degree elbows maximum. Each 90-degree elbow was equated to five feet of pipe, so for each elbow less than five the pipe length could be increased by five feet. My physical setup required four 90-degree elbows: first one out of the bottom of the air box, second one to turn horizontally from the front of the furnace and run the pipe horizontally along the side of the furnace to the wall behind, third to turn vertical and take the pipe up the wall, and fourth to turn back to horizontal to head for the exterior wall where my existing CAI goes through to the outside.

This last section of 2” IPS pipe was fitted with a 3” to 2” coupling as the outside diameter of the 3” end of the coupler (actually 3&1/2”) would fit inside the flexible dryer duct.

I originally installed the CAI for the wood-burning hydro-hearth I built and installed some 35 years ago when heating oil prices were going through the roof. I drilled/cut a hole through the 12” cement block wall and inserted an 18” long piece of 4” IPS PVC pipe through it. I installed a piece of vinyl screen mesh inside the outer end of the tube to keep the critters out. From the inside end of the 4” IPS pipe I extended flexible dryer vent tubing which was disconnected last year when the System 2000 was installed and the hydro-hearth removed. I connected the free end of the flexible duct to the 3&1/2” O.D. end of the coupler on the end of the PVC piping.


In actuality I did not use an elbow for the third one described above. Instead I used a tee with the main run vertical so that I could extend a piece of 2” IPS PVC pipe vertically downward to the floor to act as a leg to support the horizontal pipe coming into the tee from the furnace and the vertical pipe going upward along the wall and then horizontally to the exterior of the house. I capped the bottom of the leg to prevent air from being sucked in from the room.

For ease of installation I did not use PVC cement to join the pieces of the CAI PVC pipe as it simply sets up to fast. Rather I used silicon adhesive as it takes several hours to set up, and can be relatively easily shifted around during assembly of the duct run, or disassembled as may be required someday. As per the System 2000 Installation Manual I used screws in both ends of the second elbow to allow disconnection of the CAI pipe so as to allow opening the front of the furnace for inspection and cleaning.

I bought all of the required PVC components at Lowes. For reference here is a list with Lowes part numbers, quantities and description:
Lowes No. Quantity Description
23357 111111 1112” PVC 90 street elbow
23318 111111 1113” x 2” PVC coupling
331504 11111 1112” DWV male adapter
23360 111112111 2” PVC 90 long sweep elbow
23406 111111 1112” PVC test cap
23395 111111 1112” PVC sanitary tee
23832 111112 1112Inx10FT PVC S40 pipe
Total Cost = $23.77 + tax

 

Last edited by NJT; 10-19-12 at 03:31 PM.
  #30  
Old 10-19-12, 03:24 PM
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Pretty clever use of the 'whited out' numbers in your parts list table to get everything to line up properly! (it might have been easier to use the 'Table' function though!)

Nice write up (I'm just going to do some mild editing to add some 'white space' to make more easily read), and sounds like a good, well thought out job.

Now that you have the 'snorkel' on the burner, it is a good idea to recheck the combustion as the piping WILL add some restriction and change the amount of air the burner is breathing.
 
  #31  
Old 10-24-12, 06:47 AM
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Thanx 'NJ Trooper'.
My annual burner "tuneup" (which will be the first for the less than one year old System 2000) was scheduled even before I decided to do the 'snorkel'.
 
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