well, the do-it-yourself crowd helped me over the summer. i removed a wall by the stairway to put in a handrail and discovered a pipe bringing the heat upstairs. I had to reroute the pipe, my first big plumbing job, to make way for the handrail. folks here helped me with some soldering tips. that was in the summer and the handrail looks great. but now that it's cold, you could store meat upstairs. I realize a lot of air got in my baseboard heat during that summer project. one room at the top of the house and the end of the heat loop doesn't get warm at all. there are only a couple of bleeder valves on the system that are already spitting water. there aren't any bleeder valves in the cold room.
I know I have to mess with some valves near the boiler, but I'm not sure which ones. Lots and lots and lots of valves down there.
My boiler has a pipe coming out of the very bottom. There's an elbow joint with a hose bib on it, and the pipe heads up to the circulator. Directly above the circulator is another hose bib, then above that is a Y joint sending the water to different parts of the house. There are two shut off valves directly above the Y joint, one on each pipe. I think I have to turn off one of those shut off valves and drain from one of the hose bibs, but I'm not sure which ones. Or let me know if I'm way off on this. If pics of the boiler and valves would help, I'll try to do that when my wife gets home tonight. fortunately, she's better with a digital camera than I am with the plumbing.
thanks

 

Dad, yes the pics will be a great help. I don't think you need to drain water though... you need to bleed air. Draining will only make the situation worse.

When you say "spitting water" that would indicate to me that there is air in the pipes... should be a steady stream of water.

I think what you are describing is the return piping. If there's no way to bleed the air from the upstairs loop, then you may in fact need to PURGE the loop (draining and simultaneously adding water), and you may do that from the boiler...

I'll be back later to look at yer pics...

In the meanwhile, what's the pressure reading on the boiler gauge ?

 

pressure gauge is at 12. that was without the boiler burning. not sure if it creeps up when the boiler is fired up.
and the water was streaming out of the bleeder valve. that bleeder valve is on a second-floor elbow right where the pipe comes up from the first floor. from there, it loops through two bedrooms and then heads back down to the basement through the attic and a closet in the kitchen. that section of pipe in the kitchen closet, where it comes down from the attic, doesn't get hot either. and that's downstream from the cold room. hope this helps. i just think i'd need a bleeder valve further along the upstairs loop to get the air out, and there isn't one.

 

great, 12 is good.

yeah, it sounds like you are able to get the air to the top of the pipe, but it may just slope up enough from that point to be trapping air downstream...

One thing you can try before trying to purge...

Do you have one thermostat in the house ? your system is NOT zoned and both heating loops run at the same time ?

If so, determine which of those two valves ahead of the Y where they join back together is for the up and downstairs loops. Close the valve for the downstairs. You may get lucky and the extra flow to the upstairs loop MIGHT push that water down again, and allow it to be caught in your air scoop and eliminated.

Another trick would be to temporarily raise the boiler pressure to say 20 PSI and try the same trick. This will cause the air bubbles to shrink in size (under more pressure) and they may get small enough to flow out and down as above.

Worth a shot anyway ! Try the easy stuff first.

 

we do have one thermostat, so i'll give those tips a whirl. just have to follow those pipes and see where they go. sorry no pics yet. i took them, but then the batteries in the digital camera went dead just before I transferred the pics to the computer. charging the batteries now.

 

i tried trooper's tip of shutting down one of the valves and i'm letting the heat run now. think there still may be too much air in there. i realize now that there is a small loop going to a laundry room addition on the back of the house. the other main loop is the entire house, both floors. i shut off the laundry room loop. any advice on how to purge this thing would be appreciated.

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Well glory be, looky there... it's actually a Vaillaint boiler ! Whattaya know, I thought I was the only one still running one of them.

Dad, I'm perusing the photos now, but tellya the truth, I'm having a hard time following the piping in the pics.

It looks like there is a bypass line from the boiler supply outlet back to the return inlet, is there a valve on that line or no ?

lemmee look some more ...

 

In "Boiler 2" I can see the supply coming off the boiler, going to the air scoop with an autovent on top and the expansion tank on the bottom. Then, into the red flow control valve, then up and back to a tee with a pipe off the top which goes to a valve and disappears. Is that the laundry room loop ?

The main supply goes back a bit more and splits left and right. On the pipe that goes to the right in the pic, I think I can see another valve handle. Is that a drain (hose fitting) or a shut off valve ?

That autovent valve on the air scoop (above the expansion tank) : is the cap on that screwed down tight because it was leaking ?

There's another autovent too, on the supply pipe near the boiler, on the elbow that leads to your pressure relief valve. That one appears to have also been leaking. Is that cap also screwed down tight ?

If those were both leaking and caps screwed down, at the very least, the one on top of the air scoop needs to be functional. That's how the air is going to be expelled from the system under normal operation. If those caps are tight, they can't do their job.

What is that gadget you've got sitting on top of the boiler? Looks like an air fitting and a hose end adapter? What's that for ?

back to look some more...

 

sorry, trooper. i don't know all the lingo. but if I can explain maybe the pics will make more sense. there is a pipe coming out of the very bottom of the boiler. there is a hose bib on that pipe right at the bottom. then that pipe starts heading up toward the circulator. But right before the circulator is a T-joint. One end keeps heading up toward the circulator, and the other pipe that breaks off heads back to the top of the boiler, where there is another pipe sticking out of the boiler. directly above the circulator is a Y-joint and then shut off valves on each pipe branching off the joint. one pipe is simply a small loop going to a laundry room addition on the back of the house. The other pipe feeds the main loop that goes through all the first floor rooms, up to the second floor rooms, through the attic and then back downstairs through the kitchen closet and back to the boiler. if I follow the pipe coming out of the top of the boiler, it has a T-joint with one loop going to the left side of the house and one going to the right. Each of those pipes also has the screw-type shut off valves. So I guess what I need to know to purge this thing. Which valves should I turn off, the ones right above the circulator or the ones off the other pipe that comes out of the top of the boiler (even though those pipes are connected before the circulator)? And where should I connect a hose? The bib right at the bottom of the boiler or the bib right above the circulator? appreciate all of the help.

 

OK, a little lingo first:

The pipe out the back TOP of the boiler is your SUPPLY. That's the one that the hot water comes out of and goes to the house.

The pipe on the back BOTTOM is the RETURN, so water comes back from the house to the boiler there.

The pipe that goes between those two pipes is a BYPASS.

Problem is, you need to have a combination of valves available so that you can force the water to go in the direction you want it to go in order to purge it, and frankly, I don't see that in the pics.

What I do see is your supply pipe off the top splitting and going in three directions, one is obviously to the laundry room, and the other two are going to the rest of the house.

Then, on the RETURN (the Y pipes) I only see TWO pipes coming back in. There must be another connection somewhere that I can't see in the pics, correct ?

 

In "Boiler 2" I can see the supply coming off the boiler, going to the air scoop with an autovent on top and the expansion tank on the bottom. Then, into the red flow control valve, then up and back to a tee with a pipe off the top which goes to a valve and disappears. Is that the laundry room loop ? Yes. That's the laundry loop.

The main supply goes back a bit more and splits left and right. On the pipe that goes to the right in the pic, I think I can see another valve handle. Is that a drain (hose fitting) or a shut off valve ? That is a shut off valve. There are shut off valves in both directions from that split.

That autovent valve on the air scoop (above the expansion tank) : is the cap on that screwed down tight because it was leaking ? I don't know, but I'll check. Bought this house two years ago, and this is my first time fiddling with the boiler.

There's another autovent too, on the supply pipe near the boiler, on the elbow that leads to your pressure relief valve. That one appears to have also been leaking. Is that cap also screwed down tight ? I'll check that one too.

If those were both leaking and caps screwed down, at the very least, the one on top of the air scoop needs to be functional. That's how the air is going to be expelled from the system under normal operation. If those caps are tight, they can't do their job.

What is that gadget you've got sitting on top of the boiler? Looks like an air fitting and a hose end adapter? What's that for ? I used that over the summer when I rerouted the heat pipes to make room for a handrail. I wanted to make sure all the soldering I did wasn't leaking, so I used that to pump air into the system to check for leaks before I turned the water back on.
back to look some more...
thanks for all the help, Trooper.

 

OK, great... I'm going to try and draw up a sketch of your system so I can better understand how it's piped...

one more question though:

Where the two pipes split and go left and right, each with a shutoff, tells me that there are actually two loops in the rest of the house, excluding the laundry.

On the return side, there is the Y pipe, and you said one is from the laundry, and the other from the rest of the house. But it doesn't add up, 3 going out, 2 coming back ... where is the end of the other pipe ?

 

That autovent valve on the air scoop (above the expansion tank) : is the cap on that screwed down tight because it was leaking ? I just loosened that cap. A hiss of air came out and then water. I tightened it back down.

There's another autovent too, on the supply pipe near the boiler, on the elbow that leads to your pressure relief valve. That one appears to have also been leaking. Is that cap also screwed down tight ? that one is pretty badly corroded on top and I don't want to unscrew it and have it break on me at this hour. but probably safe to assume it was leaking too.

On the return side, there is the Y pipe, and you said one is from the laundry, and the other from the rest of the house. But it doesn't add up, 3 going out, 2 coming back ... where is the end of the other pipe ? there is a T-joint in the basement ceiling several feet from the boiler where those two outgoing loops come together before heading back to the boiler through that one pipe you can see in the pic with the green handle on the shut-off valve.

 

OK, great... now at least it adds up.

You don't see any other valves or drains though ? aside from what can be seen in the pics and what you've already mentioned ?

Yes, don't be breaking anything !

First thing, you need to replace the auto-vent on top of the AIR SCOOP above the expansion tank. You should be able to get one at HD or LOWES for a nominal amount. (I know yer broke! ain't we all!). There is a float inside that vent. When the scoop catches air, it passes it to the vent. When the vent is full of air, the float drops and opens a valve to let the air out. When the air goes out, water comes in, the float goes back up and closes the valve.

If that isn't working, you will never get all the air out.

Don't worry about the second one for now, one should do the job for the time being.

You can probably change that vent without having to drain the entire system. You only need to drop the pressure in the boiler to near zero. You will need to be quick when you swap the valve, because some water is going to come out when you take the old vent valve off, but the water won't be under pressure. You will get a little wet probably. Here's what you do:

TURN OFF POWER TO THE BOILER AND LET COOL TO LESS THAN 100*F!

Close the yellow and green valves at the Y pipe.

Close the two valves where the pipe splits left and right to go to the house, and the other valve that goes to the laundry.

Close the yellow valve below the light brown bell shaped thing. (that's your water fill valve by the way)

Put a bucket under the drain valve above the circ, or use a hose. Drain water from the boiler until the pressure gauge reads zero.

Have the new vent valve ready to install with a couple wraps of teflon tape or pipe dope on the threads, and place it within easy reach.

You might want to wrap some absorbent rags around the air scoop to soak up the water (optional if you aren't worried about the water, just don't get any on the electric stuff). Unscrew the old vent valve and be ready to put your finger over the hole to stop the water when it comes off. There is no pressure here, so you can stop it with a finger.

Pick up the new valve, move your finger and quickly screw it in and tighten it just snug enough so it doesn't leak.

Before you refill the boiler, put a tire pressure gauge on the tire valve on the bottom of the expansion tank (unscrew the red cap first, of course). The air pressure in that tank should read 12-15 PSI. If it does not, add air with a compressor or bicycle pump until it does.

If any water comes out the valve on the bottom of the expansion tank, the tank is defective and should be replaced. Lowes and HD will have those too. If you DO find water in the tank BE CAREFUL when you remove it, as it will be HEAVIER than the new one ! DON'T BREAK A TOE! OR A FOOT! OR SOMETHING ON THE BOILER IF YOU DROP IT!

When you've finished all that, open all the valves you closed, and check to see that the boiler pressure is back to where you started.

Leave the cap on the vent thing loose so air can escape, it should not leak water.

Let me know when that's all done, and we'll continue...

 

i'll try to replace the auto vent today. seems easy enough, but if there's a way to screw it up, I'll find it. I'll also look for more valves. and post my discoveries.