concrete floor - heat loss


  #1  
Old 11-14-07, 03:36 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
concrete floor - heat loss

Working on heating my small one car attached garage converted studio. I am insulating the walls and ceiling but wish to leave the concrete floor-please tell me this is not a huge mistake! Is there much heat loss through the floor? It is 4" thick. I am in Long Island and winters are really only bad from January to April. Thanks
 
  #2  
Old 11-14-07, 03:48 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Not a heckuva lot through the floor into the earth, but you will lose some heat out the perimeter. Consider perimeter insulation OUTSIDE the foundation. Dig a trench and use one of the products intended for this purpose.

Slab Insulation FAQ

If you find your feets getting chilly, look into a 'heat inverter', basically a piece of ductwork that hangs from the ceiling with a fan inside. Pulls heat from the ceiling and blows it out along the floor. If the slab is dry, a nice cozy carpet helps a lot too!

[edit: I just googled 'heat inverter' and didn't see what I'm thinking of, so maybe it's called something else. There was one in a garage I worked in years ago, so I know they are out there. Maybe a small ceiling fan would do the same thing...]
 
  #3  
Old 11-14-07, 04:24 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Thanks! How deep do you need to dig a trench? I assume we are talking about using rigid foam insulation? Do I keep the insulation up tight against my starting row of cedar shingles or can this cause problems?
 
  #4  
Old 11-14-07, 04:38 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Of course it's best if you can go all the way to the footing, which I believe on LI is 4' ... that's a lot of work, but you'll get the most benefit. Even 2' will be a large improvement.

The problems you want to consider are TERMITES, and damage to the exposed insulation from UV (sunlight) and physical damage.

Ideally, you would run the insulation right up the the bottom of the siding, but if you don't leave a gap for inspection, termites can get right on in there undetected.

You can stucco the foam boards for protection and appearance.

Google up 'foundation perimeter insulation' and you will find lots of good info. The ones from Kansas I just read are pretty good. Too bad NY and NJ aren't as responsive as some other state governments, eh ?

This is kinda off topic... the mods may want to move this thread... oh well !
 
  #5  
Old 11-14-07, 05:35 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Thanks-I will do this. On another note - I don't want to heat this room like the rest of the house. It will just be used as an entry room/mud room for winter - a place to put shoes on and off. I would be happy to just keep it at 55-60 degrees. So, I was thinking of just putting about 6' of fin tube off the hot water boiler. I already have an 8' length of electric baseboard - I would use as supplemental if the hot water can't keep it at 55. Any flaws with this idea??

PS-I have already bought a ceiling fan that I will put up to limit the heat traveling up to the loft area.
 
  #6  
Old 11-14-07, 05:52 PM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Tom, the biggest issue I could see with having 6' of fin tube out there is that your risk of freezing goes up or the hassle of using glycol goes way up.

[61 seconds later]
[23 seconds later]
 
  #7  
Old 11-14-07, 05:56 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
But if I have the electric set on 55 degrees (it's own thermo), then it will kick on whenever the hot water bb has trouble - no? I don't see how it could freeze with the electric auxillary, but I may be missing something.
 
  #8  
Old 11-14-07, 06:16 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
An important point I forgot to say: The electric heat is on the exterior wall. The hwbb would be on the attached (interior) wall - I figure not only easier to feed but also less likely to freeze. Does this sound better?
 
  #9  
Old 11-14-07, 06:18 PM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Tom, just thinking about if there was a blackout...
 
  #10  
Old 11-14-07, 06:20 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
If this isn't actually _living_ space, I don't think I'd worry too much about insulating the foundation walls. You really won't lose enough heat through that slab to make a real difference. Unless I'm mis-understanding something...
 
  #11  
Old 11-15-07, 04:39 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
NJ trooper,
Not really living space much during winter - but would like to be able to go out there with a sweater - maybe keep the german shepherd out there (she does not like it to hot anyway). If I don't heat it at all then I lose the room for 4 months - If I heat it too much then I am wasting the btus off my first floor loop with no one in there much. That is why I was thinking of just minimally heating with the hwbb and having electric as supplemantal. A blackout might be a problem I guess............. The electric is enough as is but it will be running like crazy and cost much more.
Thoughts?
 
  #12  
Old 11-15-07, 06:11 AM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Tom, why not go to SlantFin's web site and download or order Heatloss Explorer. Then you'll be able to calculate how many BTUs you'll need. Set design day for a typical winter day and also for your design day conditions (typically about the coldest day or 2 or the year). Then you can size for a typical day and just use the electric for extremes.

If something is reasonable insulated and has low enough infiltration it doesn't usually require much heat at all to maintain 50°F.
 
  #13  
Old 11-15-07, 07:09 AM
X
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,338
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Slabs are heat-suckers. Regardless of what you do about heating, do the perimeter insulation. If you can add insulation and do air sealing anywhere else in the space, do it. Way cheaper than heating. Think of insulation as energy you buy only once. If you haven't insulated or sheetrocked the walls yet, consider padding out the studs to 6.25" and using R-19 in the wall. The incremental added cost should be pretty low (bunch of ripped 2x4s and some nails; slightly more for the insulation). Get the ceiling up to R-38 or 49 and your heat loss should be quite manageable.

If you do run hwbb, insulate the pipes going to and coming from the element. Standard armaflex foam would be fine. Every foot you insulate is a foot that will take a lot longer to freeze in the event of a lengthy power outage.
 
  #14  
Old 11-15-07, 09:11 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Who and others , Once insulated well, do you think the electric alone would be enough? It is an 8' 2500watt unit. If it would not take much to heat then I don't need to worry about freezing. PS - there is of course a doorway that leads from this 9'X16" attached space and I can leave this door open at times, which would bring warm air in from the house.
Thanks for all the advice so far,tom
 
  #15  
Old 11-15-07, 10:42 AM
X
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,338
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Grab the slantfin heat loss software and plug in your info. We can check your results if you provide the LxWxH of the space, number and size of doors and windows, etc. Half hour exercise for a first-timer with the software.

You can also make two rooms in the software and compare insulation strategies -- see how much benefit there is from adding insulation to walls, ceiling.
 
  #16  
Old 11-15-07, 11:22 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
OK I just did the heat loss. I used 10 degree outside temp and 65 degree indoor temp. I chose slab with no insulation. I figured 3 1/2" insulation in the walls. I chose 3 1/2" insulation in the ceiling rafters as I am cathedraling to use the loft space above(will use raftmates with ridge and soffit vents). The ceiling height in the space at gound level is about 8' high. It covers 2/3's of the ceiling - 1/3 is open to the loft above. I will put a ceiling fan in this 1/3 area to keep the heat down since the loft is not used/needed in the winter. I chose a ceiling height of 10' as a compromise as there did not seem to be a way to input my special circumstances.

The heat loss came up 6,492 requiring 12' of bb. So if I use the 6' of hwbb I already have (leftover), then that gets me 1/2 way there. I would definately be running the electric when it was 20 degrees outside.

Any thought?
 
  #17  
Old 11-15-07, 11:33 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
PS - when I changed the outside temperature to 20 degrees and changed the inside temp to 50 degrees, the required length was 6' - 3500 heat loss. So unless it was below 20, I could expect the hwbb of 6' to keep things at 50 degrees - right.
 
  #18  
Old 11-15-07, 12:24 PM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Tom, two things to keep in mind. The heatloss is generally quite overstated and infiltration has a huge effect. It's not that good for absolutes but it is good for seeing the effect of better insulation and reduced infiltration. I would use it more to compare A and B than to think it represents A or B. It's a very useful tool for that.

What are you doing with the garage door?

As for insulation, I'm somewhat split between xiph's rationale that it's one time cost against the fact that it doesn't take much energy at all to hold 50° as an indoor temperature.

That said, I must add that if you built 2 identical boxes and on one you used 3½" batts of R12 fibreglass between the studs and a 6 mil continuous vapour barrier and on the other you used continuous T&G 1" XPS R5 and taped the seems, I'd bet the heatloss would be lower for the XPS. I might be out to lunch on this, but if I were you I'd batt the stud cavities, but use XPS inside that - tape all seems with tack tape. You could attach the XPS to the studs with strapping and then hang your rock on that. If you do this mount your electrical boxes out further. Reflective XPS or a layer of foil shining towards the 3/4" air gap of the strapping couldn't hurt at all.

I used 1" XPS with a hardboard layer to cover for insulating a crawlspace that's more like a 5' basement last winter and was glad I didn't bother with the effort of stud walls or even the expense of going thicker. The first inch does the most...

Anyway, XPS aint cheap, but if I were in your shoes, I'd stuff Roxul rock wool batts in the stud cavities and 1" XPS on the walls - maybe thicker for the ceiling but it all depends on that garage door. The more you insulate everything else, the more heat you channel out the door. Heat's a tough thing to hang onto...
 
  #19  
Old 11-15-07, 01:05 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Good news on the door - this summer I took out the old doors and replaced with a new efficient high E french door. I dug down 4' for a new concrete footer to keep it from heaving. I now have about a 5" step up to the door. It did not hurt the look of the garage - it now looks like a studio.
 
  #20  
Old 11-15-07, 02:20 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I would definitely go with more insulation in the ceiling... and make sure you still have ventilation up there by using those styrofoam 'troughs' to keep the area to the eaves open (assuming you've got ventilated soffit and a ridge vent).

Use XPS on the inside of the studs on the ceiling after you put the 3-1/2" in the stud cavities, and rock over that. You will lose a couple inches in ceiling height, but since it's a cathedral anyway, it won't matter.
 
  #21  
Old 11-15-07, 02:34 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I'm wondering.... when I feed the hwbb (which will be on the attached house wall ), would it be OK to go through the block wall? If I go through the wood, the heater will be about 8" off the floor in the studio and not look so great. If I penatrate the cinder block foundation, I can get the heater right at finished concrete level. I would insulate the copper going through the block, of course. Would there be any more likelyhood of freezing? - doesn't seem so......
 
  #22  
Old 11-15-07, 04:29 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I don't see any reason why you couldn't go through the foundation blocks unless by doing so you compromise the structural integrity. That would be kinda hard to do... you're not jackhammering 6" holes in the foundation!

You said 'cinder blocks' ... if they really are cinder and not concrete blocks, be very careful when making the holes... go slow... cinder block cracks easily, especially aged cinder block.

Yes, definitely insulate them where they pass through, and seal the openings around the insulation with some expanding foam.

It might be in yer best interest though to raise the baseboard up say an inch or two, just in case you ever decide to carpet the area.
 
  #23  
Old 11-15-07, 05:15 PM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Yes, definitely insulate them where they pass through, and seal the openings around the insulation with some expanding foam.
Hrmmm... before doing that, what is on the other side of the wall where you are going through?

These are both interior walls...


Some more thoughts to muddy the water...

As a true inside heated room, placing the heat in front or near the french/door window would actually be best from a comfort PofV.

Any thoughts on putting a panel rad in there on a TRV instead of baseboard? Maybe a couple three hundred more... but you would have different options on how much heat you want there.
 
  #24  
Old 11-15-07, 05:51 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Who, the other side of the wall is the full basement. The attached garage shares the outside foundation I would be going through (and installing the hwbb). I figure this is not only easiest but furthest from any new outside wall, once the space is insulated. I can easily cut into the 1st floor loop which is now running along the basement ceiling right where I want to be.

The longest outside garage wall (16'), has the electric bb now which is an 8 footer.

Can you please give more details about the panal rad you are thinking of? What is a TRV??

Trooper - they may be concrete blocks - built in 1945.
 
  #25  
Old 11-15-07, 07:02 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by tomfmal
Trooper - they may be concrete blocks - built in 1945.
Age really doesn't matter... you can tell cinder from concrete pretty easily. Cinder is usually overall gray color, and may have specks of coal looking stuff in it, pretty rough texture, I've even seen chunks of glass in them.

Concrete is mostly a uniform grayish almost white color, much smoother...

Cinder blocks were made from the ashes of burnt coal, mixed with cement. They aren't as strong and tend to crumble after 50 or so years. They were cheap substitutes for the real thing.
 
  #26  
Old 11-15-07, 07:37 PM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Can you please give more details about the panal rad you are thinking of? What is a TRV??


That nob thing on the left of the panel rad is the TRV... on different panel rads they can be at different spots - nice when they are up high on the side like the one below...





TRVs are the coolest things in hydronics. You turn the nob, it restricts flow above a certain temperature. Just a glob of wax inside - no wires at all and they work really well.

I guess the key thing here that I may have missed or can't recall is how you are piped. There has to be some kind of pressure differential to get water to flow through this branch. If you are cutting into a loop this won't work since it would choke the whole loop down, but if it's anything else then it can work - or you might find a 3 way TRV, but rad 3 way TRVs are rare.

Figure $100 - 150 for the TRV and maybe $200 for the panel? Just guessing at prices here.
 
  #27  
Old 11-16-07, 05:09 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Yes I was going to cut into my 3/4 copper off the 1st floor loop - nothing but bb in this loop. I already have 3 zones: 1st floor, 2nd floor, and hot water tank. I left a tee for a 4th zone but was going to use that to feed a kickspace heater in the kitchen because the kitchen has always been the cold room.
Are you thinking of the panel rad because it will give me more btus for the length it takes up? My thinking was to undersize the hw heat so that the room is colder than all other rooms as it will not be used much - my german shepherd will be using it the most and she has a nice thick coat. If I heat the room to be equal with the rest of the rooms, then I figure I will be "wasting the btus" out there. The only thermostat in the studio (garage) would be the electric heat thermo set at maybe 55-60 to kick on when it gets really cold. The hwbb would be running when the 1st floor house themostat calls for heat.

Maybe my idea is flawed??
 
  #28  
Old 11-16-07, 06:00 AM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Tom, perhaps neither of us have a clue what you might want to do with that space in a couple of years. I suggested the rad and TRV because you may end up wanting to keep that room at full temp if its purpose ever changes or just at 50...

Who knows... well actually I sure don't... just tossing ideas. You'd need to use a monoflo or too to tee it in.
 
  #29  
Old 11-16-07, 06:08 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I know what you mean - plans change. But - I alreadt have the electric out there up and running so I figure I would just help it out so it's not on all the time. Not sure what is best??
 
  #30  
Old 11-16-07, 06:27 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I may have asked this before - can you stack fintube in the same enclosure? Could I add a 4' on top of my 6' fin tube in the same 6' enclosure?
 
  #31  
Old 11-16-07, 08:11 AM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
I'm not sure at all. Typically the top is just used to loop back bare pipe when the supply and return need to be at one end.
 
  #32  
Old 11-16-07, 08:17 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Ya, I know. And - I just looked at my 6 footer. There is not enough room above it to get another fin tube (lacking about 1/2"). I could dispose of the brackets, lowering the bottom tube so that it could work though. Does anyone have a problem with this?? Thanks
 
  #33  
Old 11-16-07, 02:14 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Take a look at higher output baseboard before ya start trying to cobble something together, i.e. MultiPak 80. There are other manufacturers also, Beacon-Morris comes to mind...
 
  #34  
Old 11-16-07, 02:45 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Darn - hate to buy something when I have a brand new slant fin 6' fine line 15. I can't use it anywhere else. Maybe I should just use it and see how the winter goes - and how much the electric runs....... not sure oh well

PS - what is the total length of fin tube that you can effectively use on a loop? I have 51 feet now on my 1st floor loop (which I will be adding to). My upstairs loop puts out abot 16,500 btus.My boiler is rated at 67.
 
  #35  
Old 11-16-07, 03:32 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
The amount of fin tube depends on the piping size. In a 3/4" loop running at 4 GPM (a 'standard' value), you should limit the loop length to 66' . 66 * 600 (btu/ft) = 39600 BTU . 4 GPM = 40000 BTU .

1/2" pipe is good for 1.5 GPM or 15000 BTU , so 15000 / 600 BTU/ft = 25'
 
  #36  
Old 11-16-07, 05:10 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Well I have 3/4 copper so adding the 6' to 51' is 57' - 9' shy of your max of 66'. I wish I could add a bit on top of the 6' I have. Even if I wanted a longer unit, it would not fit on the common wall because of the doorway. I am tempted to try to stack/double up one fin over the other because I feel that 6' is just a little to shy of where I want to be - even though I am aiming to be shy. With the heat loss calcs, I would really like to be at around 5000btus on the hwbb which would be about 9'ish. Going to a kickspace wall mount would present it's own quirks........... seems no perfect answer!

I guess if 6' of the multipak 80 would putout 5000btus I should consider that and throw my fine line 15 in the trash.
 
  #37  
Old 11-16-07, 05:24 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I don't think even the multipak is that high an output ... lemmee take a look-see ...

I don't think stacking the elements will really get you the same output as if they were in a line, installed normally. It might only slightly raise the output. It probably has more to do with the amount of air that moves across the fins than the area of the fins (although that is important). With them stacked, you probably won't move that much more air. It might exit a bit hotter, but the BTU gain probably won't be worth the effort.

FineLine 15 @ 180*F and 4 GPM is 580 BTU/FT

MultiPak 80 at same is 840 BTU/FT

so yeah, 6' of the 80 is gonna give you 5K BTUH if your water is that hot... probably gonna be a bit cooler though if it's in the middle of the run.
I haven't checked prices on it, but I know that it's MUCH heavier cabinet material, and probably quite a bit more 'spensive than the 15 ...
 
  #38  
Old 11-16-07, 05:34 PM
Who's Avatar
Who
Who is offline
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,066
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 1 Post
Tom, if that's what you've got, go for it.
 
  #39  
Old 11-16-07, 05:37 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Who
Tom, if that's what you've got, go for it.
I agree... I mean, why not ? If it don't work out, you can always change it next summer, right ? I don't think yer dog is gonna bite you if he/she ain't warm enough ? Buy him/her a nice sleeping pad, so he/she don't hafta sleep on the concrete...
 
  #40  
Old 11-16-07, 05:44 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 246
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
lol - If its too cold I'll just bring her in and do it again next year.I just hate doing things twice. No perfect answer in my mind. I am fighting 2 thoughts. 1. why put too much heat out there when it isn't needed? 2. Why undersize when you may want to use the space more in the future?

The electric is my fallback - it is there - bought wired and working. But, if the bill goes through the roof I'll kick myself.

You guys are great for brainstorming with - I appreciate it!
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: