New Burnham Boiler


  #41  
Old 12-06-07, 06:09 AM
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Right now i am in process of getting estimates from chimney people for a liner and they all are saying they have never seen a pvg vented through the chimney when i mention i can do it if you use an al29-4c liner they look at me like i am crazy any ideas?
 
  #42  
Old 12-06-07, 07:14 AM
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Show them the PVG manual, pages ~16-18 where it covers vertical venting. Show them table 4, which covers the allowable equivalent length of venting (50 ft).

Show them post #20 in this thread, where a representative of the boiler manufacturer says you can use the chimney as a chase.

Tell them al29-4c is what the manufacturer requires.

I'm a true believer in outdoor reset. They are good and reliable. My house has never been so comfortable, and my fuel bills so low (relative to my old system). However, if you are going there, you might consider going a small step further and get a boiler that can either handle potential cooler return water (e.g., a Burnham Revolution) without piping modifications, or a modulating/condensing boiler that comes with an outdoor reset and other controls already built in. By the time you add the reset control and potentially add some bypass piping, you might be near what the boiler upgrade would cost. There are undoubtedly pros in your area who are good at this kind of evaluation. See if you can find them.
 
  #43  
Old 12-07-07, 08:15 AM
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Spoke with chimney guy who knows what an al29-4c liner is and according to him i am crazy according to him he's been doing this for 30 years and only installed 1 al29-4c liner and an al29-4c liner will cost me double what a reg liner will cost me. According to him if pvg boiler saves me $100 a year it will take over ten years to make my money back. he claims the pvg will require more repairs over its lifespan which will put me in the red even more. he really really recommonds the series 2.

How much money does it really cost for the pilotlight on a series 2 to run all year round?
 
  #44  
Old 12-07-07, 12:10 PM
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The boiler will save you more than $100 a year. If your boiler is 20+ yrs old and the savings isn't 25-40% something is wrong.
With that said it is prividing a heat loss is done and the boiler is piped properly according to what type system you have.
I have seen savings many times where the cast iron (not chimney vented) save people 40 - 50% id sized and piped properly.
 
  #45  
Old 12-07-07, 08:32 PM
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Savings

I too have seen such savings & am in no way associated with any equipment manufacturer. Sizing & installation are the keys. The most high tech equipment out there isn't worth what you would get for it at the scrap yard if it wasn't sized & installed right.

END OF RANT
 
  #46  
Old 12-07-07, 09:08 PM
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Rschrei51, so you want a new boiler...

Would you mind listing the 3 most important things in order of importance to you?

Then list any constraints like it can't vent here or there or must cost under X...
 
  #47  
Old 12-07-07, 10:02 PM
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Today i met with plumber doing job and i am going with the PVG since it is the most cost effective. As of right now my plan is to get it vented out the wall as long as there is no downsides to doing this is there?

I want to avoid the scg since there is no discount on it.

The thing i am worried about is i don't want to go too oversized we decided on going with the pvg 5 which is 140,000 btu's which i think is kind of high for my house. But he says since i am going with indirect it needs that amount of btu's is this true i am going with a Well Mclain gold 60

I wish i knew what my current boiler size because i don't think it is oversized it does not short cycle and seems good but there is no numbers or model number on it it is a classic it is a V & E Thermodynamics anyone hear of them i'm just curious
 
  #48  
Old 12-07-07, 11:16 PM
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Rschrei518, if you want to know what size your boiler is, just go outside when your boiler is running and measure how long it takes to consume an easily measurable quantity of NG and then just figure out what that would work out to if you ran it for a full hour. That will give you the gross consumption rating. If you have a dial that is cubic feet see exactly how many seconds it takes to consume 1 cubic foot. Suppose it takes 22 seconds. There are 3600 seconds in an hour and 1031 BTU in a cubic foot so.

3600 / 22 x 1031 = 168,701

If it takes 35 seconds same deal...

3600 / 35 x 1031 = 106,046

Unless your boiler runs nearly non-stop on the coldest day of the year, it is oversized.

If you don't want to go oversized, then why don't you actually do a heatloss calculation like previously suggested?

BTW, your plumber sounds like an absolute idiot who is wasting YOUR money 2 ways. First buying a boiler that costs much more and second buying a boiler that will waste more fuel. He makes more and you spend more on the purchase and thereafter.

BTW, I have the exact same indirect and a modulating boiler and I only use about 60 MBH to heat it (I crank the boiler down from the full 110 MBH because that much recovery just wastes NG).

Anyway, it sounds like you've already signed something. What's the job gonna cost?
 
  #49  
Old 12-08-07, 12:10 AM
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Can't do test to see how large boiler is because it is oil i am converting over to gas. Boiler i have now is properly sized because on cold days it does run non stop pretty much if i have both zones on. I have gotten a few estimates and all the guys went through my house and measured baseboards and added them togather and multiplied by 600 came up with 102,000. Should i go with the Burnham PVG5 which is 140 or the pvg 4 which is 104? I went ahead and used slant fin program to do heat loss and came up with like 80,000 btu's if i did it right

Boiler i am getting a good deal on through gas company so he is not ripping me off on that it is either the pvg or series 2 pvg is 5% more efficent thats why i am going with it

Didn't sign anything yet and didn't receive final estimate yet
 
  #50  
Old 12-08-07, 06:57 AM
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If it is oil, then you should know what size nozzle is in the burner. Basically for oil it is nozzle size x 139,000.

Radiation capacity measurements are useful in a couple of ways. It let's you know, just how how much heat a boiler can dump. BTW, 600 BTU per lineal foot means 180 and fintube in prefect condition. I would be more tempted to use a number like 500 (160) or 550. At 550, your radiation capacity is 93.5 MBH. What that means is that the heating system is limited to delivering that amount of heat, so there is no sense going any larger unless you have unusual domestic hot water needs.

The other thing that radiation capacity does is let you compare that to the heatloss to give you an idea of how low of a water temperature you could use if you are considering a condensing boiler. For example if your heatloss is 60 MBH and have 150' feet of fintube, you can go 60,000/150=400. Go to a chart for your fintube like here:

http://www.slantfin.com/documents/327.pdf

Look across at 400 BTU per foot and you'll see 150 water temp which actually makes a condensing boiler look good since you would know that only at the extremes you'd be out of range.

Still, the basis for sizing is the heatloss calculation. The tough part on there is knowing the infiltration. Without a blower door test it is a bit of a guess but it keeps some sense of reality to it.

Do you know your design day temps? Building permit offices will know what you should use.

If your heatloss is 80K, then the 5 is totally ruled out (unless your city hall only looks at IBR like mine does ) and the 3 is bit too small.
 
  #51  
Old 12-08-07, 08:09 AM
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Just checked nozzle size is .85 so .85x139000 is 118150 so is the pvg 4 to small it is only 104 the pvg5 is 140 is this to much. I feel the boiler i have now is sized good for the house on cold days it runs and dosn't shut off when i have both zones on when i run one zones it runs for a while and shuts off and stays off until temp drops maybe 10 minutes so what do you recommond?
 
  #52  
Old 12-08-07, 09:06 AM
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Don't forget that the old boiler is probably 70% efficient tops so the output would be around 83 MBH or less, so its a bit less than the "4".
 
  #53  
Old 12-08-07, 09:58 AM
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So what is it better to calculate off of the heat loss or the the amount of baseboard i have. The thiing i am debating is i don't want to go to undersized if the heat loss is incorrect. I Know i have 180 feet of baseboard in my house and also i will need to satisify the need of the Indirect but i don't think that makes a difference because it will be on a priority switch. I also don't want to go oversized because i don't want it to short cycle because i know the wear and tear it will put on the system. Do you think if i go with the pvg 5 it will short cycle I have 2 zones. or should i go with the pvg 4? I got like 6 or 7 estimates and all of the plumbers recommonded pvg 5 one guy really said i needed the pvg 6 i threw him out of the house

I was just looking at the specs but i don't comprehend all of it i know what the input is but i don't know what the DOE heating capicity or the I=B=R Water rating is? what do i look at for the output do i look at DOE heating capacity or I=B=R Water rating?
Here is the Link to the specs
http://burnham.com/PDF/SCG-PVG%20lit.pdf
 
  #54  
Old 12-08-07, 11:27 AM
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Input is what the boiler consumes.

Output is what the boiler has available for heat (the rest is lost out the chimney).

I=B=R is output less piping and standby losses (but since the boiler is inside the house this isn't really lost).

----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Your house leaks heat. The colder it is outside, the faster it leaks heat. The rate at which your house leaks heat is your heatloss (also known as a Manual J calculation) or heat demand.

The boiler is the factory that makes the replacement heat. It is the heating supply.

The emitters (are the distribution or transmission system). They release the heat that the factory makes. It should be at least equal to what the factory makes or the factory will short cycle.

The distribution system has to have enough capacity to handle the supply and demand.

But supply should equal demand and you don't determine what size the supply (boiler) needs to be on the distribution system, you size it on the heating demands of the house.
 
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Old 12-08-07, 12:50 PM
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Thanks for your help and expertise i am starting to figure this all out. My next question is i might be adding a floor onto my house over the next few years so should i account that in to the boiler size now?

The thing i don't want to happen is for the boiler to shortcycle. i was doing a little research and was reading about buffer tanks. If i do have to size the boiler for the addition do you recommond a buffer tank so it will not short cycle? Do you recommond a buffer tank even if boiler is not oversize? How large are these buffer tanks in size? Or can i disconnect priority switch for indirect which will in turn give boiler more water to heat?

The thing i don't understand is i don't understand why i can't go off the baseboards because as long as there is enough area for the water to circulate through the baseboards the boiler should not shortcycle in theory i believe I might be wrong
 
  #56  
Old 12-08-07, 12:56 PM
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Are you going with a good boiler, such as the Revolution, or a mod/con; or is the plan still going with a gas guzzling inefficient standing pilot "freebie" from the gas company? I've lost track... If you're planning to add a floor, you might be better to wait until it's done, do a heat study, and see what you need then . There's no way you're going to install a standing-pilot klunker that represents 40 year old technology, and size for the extra heat needed another story on the building, and NOT short cycle!!!!!

pete
 
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Old 12-08-07, 01:09 PM
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I am going with the PVG electrionic ignition AFUE of 85.4% i don't know if i am going with the pvg 4 or the pvg 5 i am still trying to figure it out. Addition if if it happens won't take place for a few years and i can't wait till then current equipment is boiler is 40 years old HWH is 20 years old in ground oil tank is 40 years old so everything i have here is on borrowed time. The addition i really am not sure if its going to take place
 
  #58  
Old 12-08-07, 01:44 PM
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If you don't want to be short cycling stay clear of the bigger boiler. Buffer tanks are bandaids. The ideal solution is a boiler that modulate its output to meat the heating demand. That's really what you should be getting.

Oh no... not back to the baseboard equation again.

Okay... let's assume your heatloss calculation is quite accurate and your Manual J is 80 MBH. That calculation includes some asumptions that make it overstated. Mine is 56K and the true heatloss is around 38K. So let's say in your case, the true heat load is 60K. What the baseboard linear footage and the true heatload combined will tell us is how hot your baseboards will need to be to heat the house.

60,000 / 170 = 352 -- so you'll need a maximum water temperature of about 145.

You know what that means?

With a conventional boiler, you'll have to ensure that you have adequate return water protection so that you don't have condensation issues.

or

You have a fairly ideal setup for a condensing boiler.
 
  #59  
Old 12-08-07, 01:58 PM
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40 years on an in-ground oil tank is indeed SCARY! I don't blame you for wanting it gone as soon as possible--a leak could become very expensive. I guess that precludes waiting until the addition is finished. The sooner that tanks gone the better.
 
  #60  
Old 12-08-07, 02:08 PM
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Ok i think i got this baseboard thing figured out now but i am just curious what is the theory behind a buffer tank and how large are they and how much water do they hold?
 
  #61  
Old 12-08-07, 02:27 PM
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Buffer tanks are like a hot water warehouse. Suppose you have a bunch of small zones and a big boiler. If a single small 5 MBH zone calls for heat from a 100 MBH boiler, that boiler is going to quickly overload that zone and need to shut down (thereby causing short-cycling). A buffer tank gives you some place to warehouse the heat.
 
  #62  
Old 12-08-07, 05:22 PM
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Rschrei518,
Sounds to me like you are getting more confused than before. You let guys who want to take shortcuts feed you information to make a decision which you will live with for a long time. This is simple. Properly size the boiler from the heat loss. The amount of connected load (amount of radiation) has no bearing here. If somebody wants to size and boiler and measures the radiation for boiler sizing, they should be thrown out on their ear. Totally forget the amount of radiation when it comes to boiler sizing.
I am not even concerned with the nozzle size unless the math comes in under the heat loss and the boiler heated well. Than that can aid in choosing the correct boiler size. If the number exceeds the heat loss it is useless. Heatloss calculations, if done properly, have enough padding that the boilers are still somewhat oversized. You have two zones which also can reduce the boiler size.
What size indirect are you going with. Another common mistake is over sizing the indirect. I have seen a larger tank make less hot water than a smaller properly sized tank. You say you are going with the PVG Burnham boiler. That will heat their AL35Sl tank and supply 350 GFHR. In an existing home more than likely will not use that much hot water.
 
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Old 12-08-07, 10:59 PM
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I am going with well mcclain gold 60 which holds 46 gallons of water. I got this heat loss thing down to a science but i am still going back and forth on what size i should go with according to slant fin software i need somewhere arount 80,000 btu's i have 170 feet of baseboards so 170 multiplied by 600 is 102,000 i believe pvg 3 is to small so should i go with the pvg4 which has an output of 90 or the pvg 5 which has an output of 120. All plumbers i brought in for estimates thought pvg 4 is to small they all recommond the pvg5. But i think that the unit is going to short cycle alot more so when i am only running one zone what would you guys do?
 
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Old 12-09-07, 06:59 PM
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If you did the heatloss right the pvg4 is the right choice. I suggested before radiation doesn't matter and it keeps coming up. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH RADIATION IS IN THE HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Period!!!! What is your hot water demand? How many bathrooms, powder rooms, clothes washers dishwashers etc. A 60 gallon indirect is a very large indirect.
 
  #65  
Old 12-09-07, 07:59 PM
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rbeck, the Ultra 60 is 46 gallons... a pretty sensible size actually.

The next size down is the Ultra 40 and its 36 gallons. The outer tank for the boiler water on the 60 is 8 gallons and on the 40 it's only 6 gallons, so it is a third bigger which helps the boiler get a better run. In addition the 40 has 1" fittings while the 60 1". Kind of a no-brainer to go for the Ultra 60. With the 40, the boiler is going to be doing many many more duty cycles.

I'm not sure about his heatloss... I've asked him question on his design temp and heard notta...
 
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Old 12-10-07, 09:28 AM
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He states up a few posts it was 80k with the slant fin heat loss calc. That is why I suggested the PVG4 as compared to the 5.
Thanks for the info on the tank sizing. I just thought the 60 ment a 60 gallon indirect. I had always upsized my piping one size on the smaller tanks. Some of the manufacturers request it.
 
  #67  
Old 12-10-07, 11:04 AM
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Thanks for all your help guys i just had another question i'm in the process of requesting a meter to be brought to my house for gas any of you guys know the limitations of where a meter can be placed. I wanted to place it next to my electric meter but my plumber says it can't be near it. Is this true? What He also says it can't be near my AC condenser is this true? How Far does it have to be from these items?

I am in Long Island New York. I called keyspan and none of the phone reps don't know anything. They told me to wait until guy comes to survey house but i would like to have an idea on where it is going to go beforehand any ideas?

The other thing i am worried about is venting through the wall and it damaging my cedar. Which termination do you recommond for it i don't want something that sticks out far and lookls too bad but i also don't want something that will damage my house. Please let me know which one you think will be best for my circumstances.
http://www.ventingstore.com/images/t...ions-small.jpg

I like the way the termination coupling looks but will it be good for my house?
 
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Old 12-10-07, 02:08 PM
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You don't have a choice in the termination. The termination the boiler manufacturers send is the only one that can be used. It depends on the certification. When the venting is certified with a specific termination you cannot use something else. The same with a draft diverter. It can not be altered in any way shape or form.
As far as the gas meter that is dictated by the local codes and Keyspan. Normally the gas utility will tell you where it is going to be placed. Most of the time you do not have a say.
 
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Old 12-10-07, 04:13 PM
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Ok Thats no problem but do you have an idea on what type of termination the pvg uses i'm just curious on what it is going to look like from the outside of my house?
 
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Old 12-10-07, 04:59 PM
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It looks like a straight piece of pipe capped off on the end with some holes cut into the bottom. When it exits the structure it must terminate at a 45 degree angle. If the pipe inside the home slopes uphill from the boiler to the wall you will need a condensate trap. If the highpoint of the vent is above the boiler iand it slopes downhill towards the wall it does not require a condensate tee.
 
  #71  
Old 12-10-07, 05:36 PM
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As was mentioned in post #39 on this thread, go to

http://www.burnham.com/PDF/PVG_I&O.pdf

and look on page 15. There is a picture of the sidewall vent. It will not harm your siding.
 
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Old 12-12-07, 02:39 PM
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Thanks for your Advice guys. You have no idea how much i appreciate your advice and i am sorry if we are going in circles.

I think i am going to go with the PVG4 because i think the boiler i have now is oversized because when i run one zone it shortcycles like 10 min on 7 min off but when i run both zones it runs continiously. My plumber says if i want the pvg4 no problem but he says if it is undersized he dosn't want to hear it. He claims they can't do anything if the boiler is undersized but he says if it is oversized and shortcycling they can reduce the burner orifices or turn the flame down to bring down the btu's. Is this something you recommond? Should i go with pvg5 and if boiler is shortcycling have guy come back and put smaller burner orfices on and adjust flame. He says this is a common practice on oversized boilers. What do you guys recommond.
 
  #73  
Old 12-12-07, 06:03 PM
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If it was undersized, which I would find impossible to believe based on your heatloss, at the worst that wouldl mean that 2 days a year you'll have to wear a sweater at home.

You can probably have the 4's nozzles sized smaller as well.
 
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Old 12-13-07, 09:26 AM
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I was just reading something about oversized boilers and it was recommonded to change Aquastat for one with an adjustable differential and make differential 30 degrees which will in turn make the run cycles longer is this something you guys recommond. is this something you recommond? If i make high 180 and differential 30 degrees how will unit run will it maintain 180 or 210 or 150 and will not run until temp hits 150 what do you think Book for unit says the pvg has a L4080D Aquastat does this have an adjustable differential?
 

Last edited by Rschrei518; 12-13-07 at 09:56 AM.
  #75  
Old 12-13-07, 10:35 AM
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The PVG4 has a 30 differential already with a tolerance of about 10. If you did the heat loss properly as "who" says it only affects you when you hit design temperature. If the boiler is piped properly it will not have a hard time heating. If you want to stop short cycling add a Beckett heat manager. This will control your cycling per demand. Remind me what type of radiation do you have. If it is cast iron than the installer must use a boiler bypass (not system bypass) to reduce the flow through the boiler allowing the water in the boiler to get above condensing temp. The temperature entering the boiler is not as important as the flow of cool water entering the boiler. Make sure the system is air free with circulator mounted on the supply pumping away from the expansion tank connection. No high auto vents in system. The only auto vent in a high temp system is on the air separator if using a bladder type tank. Remember a pipe only carries so many btu's of heat, if there is air in the system the bubbles take up space which should be water carrying water & btus. Therefore, less heat from the system. Air also slows down flow, again less heat from system. Keep water air free and moving faster (within limit) get more heat.
 
  #76  
Old 12-13-07, 12:00 PM
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If you are really stressing out about oversizing and efficiency to the point of considering modifying a perfectly good stock boiler by adjusting burners, changing aquastats, etc., then you should probably consider a better boiler in the first place.
 
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Old 12-13-07, 06:39 PM
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I just did a little research on internet On the beckett heat manager. It looks really promising and looks like it would stop shortcycling and make it more efficent. Is it really everything they say it is and will it be good under my circumstances? I don't think it can hurt can it?
 
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Old 12-13-07, 10:57 PM
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I just read this on website for Heat manager

The ideal application is a large, oversized boiler with many heating zones and fin tube
baseboards. This is because a boiler must be sized to heat all zones at once if necessary, but its
very rare that all zones are calling for heat at once. When only one or two zones are calling, it
further amplifies the oversizing of the boiler. The HeatManager will compensate for the
oversizing and will eliminate short-cycling.

What do you think?
 
  #79  
Old 12-14-07, 06:10 PM
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Great product. I saved about 17%. I had a 70k oil boiler with 5 zones including an indirect. Worked great for 4 years until I moved. I was happy with the results.
 
  #80  
Old 12-15-07, 10:17 AM
R
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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I have done a lot of reading on this heat manager thing and looks like a good concept. It says it will work better and save me more money on a oversized boiler so what should i do should i go with pvg5 and get heat manager or go with pvg4 and maybe still get heat manager? Does it really prevent shortcycling?
 
 

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