New Burnham Boiler
#81
12-15-07, 10:33 AM
And programmable t-stats save a lot more money in drafty homes, so do you want to leave your windows open so that you save more?
#83
12-16-07, 04:12 PM
A properly sized boiler is oversized most of the time as the heat loss changes all the time as outside temperatures change. Beckett Heat Manager and a PVG4 will give you a good application.
#84
12-16-07, 08:47 PM
Or better yet, spend what you'd have spent on the Beckett Heat Manager black box on a real outdoor reset like the Taco PC700. It plugs right into their EXP line of zone controllers.
#85
12-16-07, 10:28 PM
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#87
12-17-07, 06:14 AM
The Taco PC700 line does not prevent short cycling of the boiler, which may happen with an on/off boiler. If he does a Beckett heat manager with the PVG and a boiler bypass he will still have a poor mans system temperature reset but the boiler can operate above the condensing point. The beckett heat manager will allow the boiler to have long run times which improves the boilers efficiency.
#88
12-17-07, 06:37 AM
Wouldn't the autodifferential on the PC700 try to do the same thing, or does the Heat Manager use a more "brute force" approach? I don't know enough about either.
And, I stand corrected. It looks like the PC700 is quite a bit more stripped down than the tekmar 256.
And, I stand corrected. It looks like the PC700 is quite a bit more stripped down than the tekmar 256.
#89
12-17-07, 06:44 AM
The Beckett Heat Manager looks at supply water temperature and does multiple formulas per second to determine the rate of supply water drop. When the returning system water is hot it gives off temperature through the system at a given rate dependent of water temperature and gpm flow. If the temperature is dropping at a constant rate it will keep the burner off until it it’s somewhere around 135ºf. It will than allow the burner to come on. If another zone opens and the water temperature starts dropping at an increased rate it will allow the burner to re-fire. The same thing happens again until the call(s) for heat end. The next cycle will allow the burner to run to high limit on the aquastat. It never adjusts the high limit, only the length of off time during a call for heat
#90
12-17-07, 03:00 PM
rbeck, in a nutshell, the heat manager is adjusting the 'differential' then ? albeit perhaps with a bit of intelligence built in ? In other words, it uses an 'adaptive differential' , which may change based on the rate of delta T it is sensing on the supply side ? Is there a return sensor also ?
sorry if I'm hijacking...
sorry if I'm hijacking...
#92
12-19-07, 03:11 PM
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OK guys i think i got this figured out i am going to go with pvg4 with ODR but i have a few things which are still bothering me which i want to clear up
I did alittle research on the indirect well mcclain (Triangle Tube) and it does not have all good reviews Is it really the cadillac of hot water heaters? I also read through the book and it says that the inner tank must be filled before the outer tank so will i damage the tank when i flush it out or drain it? Will I have to drain the outer tank every time i want to flush the inner tank. This is something i feel is good to do because i have a bock 51e right now over 20 years old and the only reason it lasted this long is because i always flush the tank out. I also see that the TT III dosn't have a regular honeywell aquastat so if it does go bad will i be able to get replacement? Last time i spoke with plumber i told him i wanted a well mcclain he said he will get it if i really want it but he really wanted to get me a superstor. I am thinking maybe since i been so lucky with bock maybe go with another bock indirect Is a glass liner better then Stainless steel?
The last concern about this job is venting through the side of my house. I am worried that the Heat or whatever comes out is going to discolor my painted cedar siding and or water dripping and freezing and damaging house. I really really wanting to avoid getting al29-4c liner because i got many estimates from chimney people and they want like $2000 and when for 200 my plumber will vent out the wall for me. Do you guys think it will cause any problems?
Thanks guys thats pretty much everything on my mind
I did alittle research on the indirect well mcclain (Triangle Tube) and it does not have all good reviews Is it really the cadillac of hot water heaters? I also read through the book and it says that the inner tank must be filled before the outer tank so will i damage the tank when i flush it out or drain it? Will I have to drain the outer tank every time i want to flush the inner tank. This is something i feel is good to do because i have a bock 51e right now over 20 years old and the only reason it lasted this long is because i always flush the tank out. I also see that the TT III dosn't have a regular honeywell aquastat so if it does go bad will i be able to get replacement? Last time i spoke with plumber i told him i wanted a well mcclain he said he will get it if i really want it but he really wanted to get me a superstor. I am thinking maybe since i been so lucky with bock maybe go with another bock indirect Is a glass liner better then Stainless steel?
The last concern about this job is venting through the side of my house. I am worried that the Heat or whatever comes out is going to discolor my painted cedar siding and or water dripping and freezing and damaging house. I really really wanting to avoid getting al29-4c liner because i got many estimates from chimney people and they want like $2000 and when for 200 my plumber will vent out the wall for me. Do you guys think it will cause any problems?
Thanks guys thats pretty much everything on my mind
#93
12-19-07, 04:12 PM
The Viessmann Horicell is the ultimate in indirects in my books but is it nearly $2K better than the tank-in-tank? Not on my budget.
The danger is on the first fill. The tank is designed to flex so it is slightly corrugated. The risk is excess pressure (like when purging air in new installs) collapsing the inner tank. The manual clearly states, fill it with domestic water first, then you are golden. If you want to drain the inner tank after that's fine provided the boiler side pressure is under 15 psi.
BTW, you can never completely drain a tank-in-tank unless it is one of the inverted Euro models that hang on walls or sit in with a boiler. You can only siphon down as far as the length of the dip tube. I would try and filter particulates before they enter any tank. With a tank-in-tank I'd just let it be afterwards - I don't plan to drain mine unless I'm seriously bored. The tank-in-tank is designed so that crud doesn't accumulate on the outside of the inner tank to maximize the heat exchange throughout its life. It's a great design... if you can't afford a Horicell.
If your plumber is recommending a Superstor and has been in business a long time and stands behind what he sells, why not go with his advise rather than strangers on the net? Otherwise you are messing with karma and "I told you so"s.
Glass indirects typically need sacrificial anode rods. Stainless tanks don't but they can be affected by chlorides.
The danger is on the first fill. The tank is designed to flex so it is slightly corrugated. The risk is excess pressure (like when purging air in new installs) collapsing the inner tank. The manual clearly states, fill it with domestic water first, then you are golden. If you want to drain the inner tank after that's fine provided the boiler side pressure is under 15 psi.
BTW, you can never completely drain a tank-in-tank unless it is one of the inverted Euro models that hang on walls or sit in with a boiler. You can only siphon down as far as the length of the dip tube. I would try and filter particulates before they enter any tank. With a tank-in-tank I'd just let it be afterwards - I don't plan to drain mine unless I'm seriously bored. The tank-in-tank is designed so that crud doesn't accumulate on the outside of the inner tank to maximize the heat exchange throughout its life. It's a great design... if you can't afford a Horicell.
If your plumber is recommending a Superstor and has been in business a long time and stands behind what he sells, why not go with his advise rather than strangers on the net? Otherwise you are messing with karma and "I told you so"s.
Glass indirects typically need sacrificial anode rods. Stainless tanks don't but they can be affected by chlorides.
#94
12-19-07, 04:20 PM
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Why can't i go below the dip tube is there a drain at the bottom of tank like i have on my bock? He says superstor but i think its because it will save me a little money but i am willing to spend a few hundred extra for better tank plus WM has lifetime warrenty when superstor has 7 years
The well mcclain also does not have a regular honeywell aquastat so if it does go bad will i be able to get replacement locally and in a timely fashion. Have you ever had one go bad and are they generally reliable?
The well mcclain also does not have a regular honeywell aquastat so if it does go bad will i be able to get replacement locally and in a timely fashion. Have you ever had one go bad and are they generally reliable?
#95
12-19-07, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Rschrei518
Why can't i go below the dip tube is there a drain at the bottom of tank like i have on my bock? He says superstor but i think its because it will save me a little money but i am willing to spend a few hundred extra for better tank plus WM has lifetime warrenty when superstor has 7 years
The well mcclain also does not have a regular honeywell aquastat so if it does go bad will i be able to get replacement locally and in a timely fashion. Have you ever had one go bad and are they generally reliable?
The well mcclain also does not have a regular honeywell aquastat so if it does go bad will i be able to get replacement locally and in a timely fashion. Have you ever had one go bad and are they generally reliable?
There is no bottom drain for the inner stainless steel tank in the tank-in-tank design. That's why you have to siphon the water out through the diptube. Your plumber will have to plumb it correctly with an outside drop leg off the cold supply. Will you be putting a mixing valve on whatever tank you get?
#96
12-19-07, 06:59 PM
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I really don't think that i want to get involved with a tank that has no drain at the bottom. I think it is a good concept to be able to take water out and get all the sediment out. So what indirect tank do you guys recommond which has a drain at bottom. How is the burnham alliance or the superstor ultra or the bock or any other recommondations?
I am looking at the burnham alliance because of the removeable heat exchanger i think that is my best bet any thoughts? How is the recovery on this unit compared to other units comparable?
I am looking at the burnham alliance because of the removeable heat exchanger i think that is my best bet any thoughts? How is the recovery on this unit compared to other units comparable?
#97
12-19-07, 07:22 PM
Meanwhile over in the non-diy world...
A little reading is right... LMAO
If you get the Alliance, go with the PVG-5 for sure...
I just did a little reading on the triangle tube Phase III and am not sure if i like it because there is no way to take any water out of the tank. I don't think i want a tank which i cannot drain or flush sediment out. Right now i have a bock 51e which is over 20 years old and i kept the thing going by taking water out of it every few weeks and every like 6 months i drain it. So can you guys recommond a indirect which has a drain at the bottom. How is the Burnham Alliance or the Bock Indirect or the Superstor Ultra?
If you get the Alliance, go with the PVG-5 for sure...
#99
12-19-07, 07:28 PM
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So what would you guys choose if lets pretend triangle tube did not exist and the only choices were the burnham alliance, Crown Megastore, Superstor Ultra, Bock Indirect?
Thanks Again for the Advice
Thanks Again for the Advice
#101
12-19-07, 07:45 PM
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As long as it has a drain i'm happy i just wanted to know if there was one on the list you prefer over the other.
#102
12-19-07, 08:27 PM
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I own an Amtrol BoilerMate, but only because it came as a package with the boiler setup.
It wasn't my first choice. I've read where folks have had problems with leaks on the bottom seal, it uses a fin tube heat exchanger, and the DHW tank is lined with plastic. The drain is on the bottom, but it requires a vacuum breaker on the HW outlet to prevent pulling a vacuum against the plastic liner when draining the tank. Otherwise the warranty is zilch. Since I installed it myself, I'm sure the "lifetime" warranty will never be honored.
But, it is a cheaper tank and I'm hoping to get lucky and maybe I'll get 10 or 15 years out of it.
Personally, I like stainless steel. But others have have experienced SS weld failures due to high levels of chlorine in the water.
What kind of answer would you like to read? Personally, I'd follow Grady's advice.
Pete
It wasn't my first choice. I've read where folks have had problems with leaks on the bottom seal, it uses a fin tube heat exchanger, and the DHW tank is lined with plastic. The drain is on the bottom, but it requires a vacuum breaker on the HW outlet to prevent pulling a vacuum against the plastic liner when draining the tank. Otherwise the warranty is zilch. Since I installed it myself, I'm sure the "lifetime" warranty will never be honored.
But, it is a cheaper tank and I'm hoping to get lucky and maybe I'll get 10 or 15 years out of it.
Personally, I like stainless steel. But others have have experienced SS weld failures due to high levels of chlorine in the water.
What kind of answer would you like to read? Personally, I'd follow Grady's advice.
Pete
#103
12-20-07, 07:48 AM
The burnham Alliance has a drain at the bottom, is not affected by water conditions and no anode rods to worry about. It also has a field replacable coil. If you use an Alliance do not upsize to a PVG5. Upsizing will not do anything for you other than waste fuel.
#104
12-20-07, 10:05 AM
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I really like the idea of having a drain and the removeable coil. My question is since the coil is removeable is there a time interval where i should take it out and flush it out? Is it hard to remove and how much ceiling clearance do i need? I see that it has an electronic aquastat is it reliable? Will i be able to obtain replacement or is it replaceable with honeywell?
I see that all the connections are made on the top of the indirect is this better then having them on the sides or it does not make a difference? How much recovery am i losing if i go with the pvg4 then if i got the pvg5
I see that all the connections are made on the top of the indirect is this better then having them on the sides or it does not make a difference? How much recovery am i losing if i go with the pvg4 then if i got the pvg5
#105
12-20-07, 10:35 AM
Ceiling height is almost the height of the 35 gal tank. It grows with larger tanks. The hole in the top of the tank allows some angle when removing the coil.
The control is not readily available but can be replaced with a honeywell. The TPI control is more accurate and does not give as much overide.
Piping on top or sides does not matter. The flow is still where it belongs. All designed in.
The PVG4 is rated at 90k and the PVG5 is rated at 120k. The tank requires 99k. You will not notice the being short of 9k. I would not go to installation and operation cost of a PVG5 for 9k btu's.
The control is not readily available but can be replaced with a honeywell. The TPI control is more accurate and does not give as much overide.
Piping on top or sides does not matter. The flow is still where it belongs. All designed in.
The PVG4 is rated at 90k and the PVG5 is rated at 120k. The tank requires 99k. You will not notice the being short of 9k. I would not go to installation and operation cost of a PVG5 for 9k btu's.
#106
12-20-07, 07:26 PM
Rschrei518, do you really want an Alliance?
Personally, I think that Vaughn makes a pretty good electric water heater but their Top Performer which Burnham sells as the Alliance would never by my choice for an indirect.
You specifically ruled out a tank-in-tank indirect because it won't drain all the way to the bottom? Do you know for a fact that the Alliance drains all the way to the bottom? I wouldn't go betting the farm that it does. The drain is not on the bottom, it is low on the side. How does that make it any better than a tank-in-tank design?
Okay, so you really like the idea of the removable heat exchanger? Do you know why it is removable? Do you know how much it costs in labor to have it removed? Do you know how much a gasket costs for it each time you remove ir? Do you think that 3/4" tubing is the best size to handle a minimum of 99,000 BTUs as per Burnham (although rbeck seems to think that their minimum isn't really their minimum)? Do you realize that tank only has a 10 year warranty and that for the heat exchanger it is only two years and after the first year you'll be the one paying any transportation, labor, gasket etc. if anything goes wrong?
Check out the pressure drop on that puppy! How much bigger of a pump will you need for that than a self-cleaning tank-in-tank design that has a minimal pressure drop?
Aside from the jest in my last two posts and out of respect for this forum I don't want you or anyone else thinking that I would in any way, shape or form suggest or endorse your decision to get a Burnham Alliance or Vaughn Top Performer.
And if for any crazy reason you still wish to get an Alliance and plan to install less than their minimum recommended boiler size, I would suggest you get Burnham's written blessing in case there are any performance issues within its brief warranty period or optional longer warranty period.
Okay?
Personally, I think that Vaughn makes a pretty good electric water heater but their Top Performer which Burnham sells as the Alliance would never by my choice for an indirect.
You specifically ruled out a tank-in-tank indirect because it won't drain all the way to the bottom? Do you know for a fact that the Alliance drains all the way to the bottom? I wouldn't go betting the farm that it does. The drain is not on the bottom, it is low on the side. How does that make it any better than a tank-in-tank design?
Okay, so you really like the idea of the removable heat exchanger? Do you know why it is removable? Do you know how much it costs in labor to have it removed? Do you know how much a gasket costs for it each time you remove ir? Do you think that 3/4" tubing is the best size to handle a minimum of 99,000 BTUs as per Burnham (although rbeck seems to think that their minimum isn't really their minimum)? Do you realize that tank only has a 10 year warranty and that for the heat exchanger it is only two years and after the first year you'll be the one paying any transportation, labor, gasket etc. if anything goes wrong?
Check out the pressure drop on that puppy! How much bigger of a pump will you need for that than a self-cleaning tank-in-tank design that has a minimal pressure drop?
Aside from the jest in my last two posts and out of respect for this forum I don't want you or anyone else thinking that I would in any way, shape or form suggest or endorse your decision to get a Burnham Alliance or Vaughn Top Performer.
And if for any crazy reason you still wish to get an Alliance and plan to install less than their minimum recommended boiler size, I would suggest you get Burnham's written blessing in case there are any performance issues within its brief warranty period or optional longer warranty period.
Okay?
#107
12-20-07, 10:08 PM
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Ok so it looks like i will scratch the burnham off the list also because i see what you are talking about the drain not being at the bottom + what you are saying about the warrenty. What do you think of the Superstor Ultra it has lifetime warrenty and a drain could be tied in at the bottom? or the bock indirect has a drain at the bottom. I'm not sure what type of warrenty it has but i believe they make good Hot water heaters i have a bock 51e 20 years old and no problems I just changed anode rods last year and there was nothing left of them. Is there any indirects i am missing which have a drain at bottom.
Thanks again for the advice
Thanks again for the advice
#108
12-20-07, 10:59 PM
You can look up their info as easily as I can... The Viessmann verticals for sure would have it, but if you could afford that you'd probably be connecting it to a modcon.
My pick for a troublefree indirect would still be the tank-in-tank. I really think that ACV (the Belgian parent company that makes these tanks) has the best tank on the market for its price. I see no reason for a complete draining, nor do most manufacturers or they would all have bottom mounted drains.
It's a self cleaning design with really good exchange area and very low pressure drop. My sole beef with it is that the hotter water is on the outside. Although my tank surface temperature is quite low due to excellent insulation, so it is hardly an issue in reality... that's it.
Your Bock probably lived as long as it did because of high quality material, not you draining it. That's the tough part these days -- guessing which ones are still built to last.
I think that both the Viessmann vertical tanks and the Amtrol tanks have drains right on the bottom, but one is super-expensive and the other one has questionable durability.
My pick for a troublefree indirect would still be the tank-in-tank. I really think that ACV (the Belgian parent company that makes these tanks) has the best tank on the market for its price. I see no reason for a complete draining, nor do most manufacturers or they would all have bottom mounted drains.
It's a self cleaning design with really good exchange area and very low pressure drop. My sole beef with it is that the hotter water is on the outside. Although my tank surface temperature is quite low due to excellent insulation, so it is hardly an issue in reality... that's it.
Your Bock probably lived as long as it did because of high quality material, not you draining it. That's the tough part these days -- guessing which ones are still built to last.
I think that both the Viessmann vertical tanks and the Amtrol tanks have drains right on the bottom, but one is super-expensive and the other one has questionable durability.
#109
12-21-07, 04:58 AM
Who,
The points you bring up about gaskets and coil replacement and all may seem like valid points but, what causes you to have to change the coil etc. Water quality. Are you saying the water quality does not affect a tank in a tank. Water quality affects all metals, cast iron, aluminum, stainless steel and steel. Chlorides and chlorine are the worst followed by PH and iron. The price of a coil and gasket are far cheaper than a new indirect. Self cleaning is OK to a point again dependent on water conditions. I do not like to attack products but if you follow other sites, what about the post of the couple on their third tank in a tank which the manufacturer covered two but not the third. Is this the manufacturers fault? NO! It is water quality. Would an Alliance held up better in that situation? Yes, as the stone lining is not affected by water conditions. The copper coil is less affected than the steel. The improved efficiency of the coil in the Vaughn/Alliance also self cleans the coil. Again, for all it’s worth in a self cleaning product. It just extends the inevitable. I have seen stainless steel tanks last upwards of 6 months due to water conditions.
As far as reduced input from the boiler it will still be working at 92% of rated first hour rating. So instead of 200 gallon rating you will get 182 gallons. Is the tank going to be sized that close. I would really doubt it. Most indirect’s, as boilers are usually oversized. This practice usually causes the boiler to be even more oversized or slow down tank recovery and increases fuel usage.
As far as pipe tapings and circulator sizing. I always increase the pipe size one size up on any indirect. So I would run 1” pipe to a ¾” taping. The Taco 007 provides most people with sufficient hot water. Vaughn suggests the 007 on the smaller 2 or 3 sizes.
The facts are I like removable coils to assist in keeping the product working at it maximum. Every metal (any type) product that holds water has diminishing operating efficiencies. If you can remove a coil due to some deposit build-up and clean it I would think this is a plus. The stone lining is not affected by water conditions and aids in recovery. No dissimilar metals for electrolysis. I would venture to guess there are more stone lined tanks operating after 40 years than tank in a tank installations. The do not rust out and the stone lining does not break down.
The points you bring up about gaskets and coil replacement and all may seem like valid points but, what causes you to have to change the coil etc. Water quality. Are you saying the water quality does not affect a tank in a tank. Water quality affects all metals, cast iron, aluminum, stainless steel and steel. Chlorides and chlorine are the worst followed by PH and iron. The price of a coil and gasket are far cheaper than a new indirect. Self cleaning is OK to a point again dependent on water conditions. I do not like to attack products but if you follow other sites, what about the post of the couple on their third tank in a tank which the manufacturer covered two but not the third. Is this the manufacturers fault? NO! It is water quality. Would an Alliance held up better in that situation? Yes, as the stone lining is not affected by water conditions. The copper coil is less affected than the steel. The improved efficiency of the coil in the Vaughn/Alliance also self cleans the coil. Again, for all it’s worth in a self cleaning product. It just extends the inevitable. I have seen stainless steel tanks last upwards of 6 months due to water conditions.
As far as reduced input from the boiler it will still be working at 92% of rated first hour rating. So instead of 200 gallon rating you will get 182 gallons. Is the tank going to be sized that close. I would really doubt it. Most indirect’s, as boilers are usually oversized. This practice usually causes the boiler to be even more oversized or slow down tank recovery and increases fuel usage.
As far as pipe tapings and circulator sizing. I always increase the pipe size one size up on any indirect. So I would run 1” pipe to a ¾” taping. The Taco 007 provides most people with sufficient hot water. Vaughn suggests the 007 on the smaller 2 or 3 sizes.
The facts are I like removable coils to assist in keeping the product working at it maximum. Every metal (any type) product that holds water has diminishing operating efficiencies. If you can remove a coil due to some deposit build-up and clean it I would think this is a plus. The stone lining is not affected by water conditions and aids in recovery. No dissimilar metals for electrolysis. I would venture to guess there are more stone lined tanks operating after 40 years than tank in a tank installations. The do not rust out and the stone lining does not break down.
#110
12-21-07, 06:46 AM
RSchrei, if you want access for cleaning, check out a Buderus. The inspection port is the size of a hatch on a submarine.
FWIW, it is very likely that my next indirect will be a Superstor Ultra dual coil (solar with boiler backup).
FWIW, it is very likely that my next indirect will be a Superstor Ultra dual coil (solar with boiler backup).
#111
12-21-07, 07:26 AM
rbeck, why are you addressing your post to me? I'm not about to sell my Smart 50. 
Rschrei518 is the one you should be advising.
One person who has a SS tank and seasonal chloride issues is perhaps a bit anecdotal for criticizing someone's products. One key thing that rang through in that thread was how they kept giving her new tanks. And yes, a Hydrostone tank is probably a good bet there.
Enjoy the holidays...
Rschrei518 is the one you should be advising.
One person who has a SS tank and seasonal chloride issues is perhaps a bit anecdotal for criticizing someone's products. One key thing that rang through in that thread was how they kept giving her new tanks. And yes, a Hydrostone tank is probably a good bet there.
Enjoy the holidays...
#112
12-21-07, 10:55 AM
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As of now i am more confused here then before on what indirect to buy. I like the burnham because of the hydrostone but the heat exchanger looks to be limited and i am not to crazy about the warrenty on heat exchanger being only 2 years when there is other tanks which cover for it for lifetime such as the superstor. I am really looking at the superstor ultra lifetime warrenty. Drain all the way at the bottom of tank. I just can't tell how does the recovery and the pressure drop of this unit look. what do you think?
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-81.pdf
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-81.pdf
#113
12-21-07, 11:15 AM
The pressure drop and flow rate are almost identical to the Alliance. The Alliance is 6 ft head with a 9 gpm flow and the Superstor is 6 ft head with 8 gpm flow. They both have the valve in about the same place. Under the tank is insulation. In the past I have used both tanks with good success. The Superstor requires a larger boiler than does the Alliance. The PVG4 being a little small for the Alliance will still give you about 182 gallons first hour rating. The Superstor will offer about 79% of rate or 152 gallons first hour rating. I believe unless you have some unusual hot water demands both would supply you with enough hot water. This post has gone on so long I do not recall if you ever posted what your hot water demand is.
#114
12-21-07, 01:13 PM
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i live on Long island, New York Near the water and according to articles i have read online Long island is known for high chloride levels and HW tank failures. I think that the only thing which is keeping my 20 year old bock going is the glass liner and the anode rods. So i am not sure that i should go with a stainless steel tank. This is why i am thinking maybe i should go with the burnham alliance with the hydrostone. What do you think?
Last edited by Rschrei518; 12-21-07 at 02:22 PM.
#115
12-28-07, 12:31 PM
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I was just reading the specs for the Burnham Alliance and the 50 Gallon alliance says the minimum boiler output is 110,000 btu's for the 50 gallon. Rbeck says the minimum is 99 was this an oversight by you because instead of being 9,000 btus short i am going to be 30,000 btu's short if i go with the pvg4.
I decided to go with the alliance this way i don't have to worry about my water quality. I know the water quality isn't the best in my area because i have spoke to some of the people in my area and they havn't been to lucky with hwh's. I guess i was just lucky with mine. Do you recommond spending the extra $100 on the lifetime warrenty? Does the warrenty include the Heat Exchanger?
I decided to go with the alliance this way i don't have to worry about my water quality. I know the water quality isn't the best in my area because i have spoke to some of the people in my area and they havn't been to lucky with hwh's. I guess i was just lucky with mine. Do you recommond spending the extra $100 on the lifetime warrenty? Does the warrenty include the Heat Exchanger?
#116
12-28-07, 04:49 PM
Rschrei518, I think he was basing it on a 35 gallon model. I like 50s for a normal family with a mixing valve on it and a wide differential so that the boiler doesn't have to do a DHW cycle every time 10 gallons gets used.
I'd definitely spend the $100 if it includes the HX. I'm a fan of the Hydrastone lining, but in my very personal and non-professional opinion I consider the HX to be the weak spot on that boiler. Have it piped with unions on all 4 connections so that it is easy to pull the HX regardless. And as stated previously, install a mixing valve on it. Something like a Taco 5000.
I would contact Burnham on the minimum sizing. I'm not sure why they word it so strongly as minimum sizes. Most companies allow more latitude in sizing. You don't want a 5 section just for the DHW... but their wording is pretty strong on sizing for the Alliance.
I'd definitely spend the $100 if it includes the HX. I'm a fan of the Hydrastone lining, but in my very personal and non-professional opinion I consider the HX to be the weak spot on that boiler. Have it piped with unions on all 4 connections so that it is easy to pull the HX regardless. And as stated previously, install a mixing valve on it. Something like a Taco 5000.
I would contact Burnham on the minimum sizing. I'm not sure why they word it so strongly as minimum sizes. Most companies allow more latitude in sizing. You don't want a 5 section just for the DHW... but their wording is pretty strong on sizing for the Alliance.
#117
12-28-07, 05:08 PM
I was supplying info for the 35 gallon. That fits most applications. In my opinion I would like to size closer to demand. If you prioritize (another argument) and have a larger tank it keeps the heat off longer. If the run time is too long, does it offset the fuel savings? A boiler run time of 7 minutes or longer is good. There is a point of diminishing returns and I do not know how long that is. I also like the mixing valve idea. It works well and has gotten many a tech out of hot water on closely sized tanks. I installed plenty of SS-20 (20 gallon) tanks in the past. No problems supplying enough hot water without mixing valves. One or one and a half baths, dishwasher and clothes washer. Customers always had enough hot water.
Just another opinion.
Just another opinion.
