New Burnham Boiler


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Old 11-15-07, 05:01 PM
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New Burnham Boiler

I am in the process of getting estimates i am wanting to convert to gas. Keyspan is offering discount on Burnham boiler i believe series 2 i have hot water heating. Is this a quality boiler

My Other question is right now i have 2 zones with 2 seperate circulator pumps. My question with the new boiler should i use one circulator with zone valves or stick with seperate circulators. The other thing is i will probably put in a indirect hot water heater so will i be better off with circulators?
 
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Old 11-15-07, 06:36 PM
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I had a Series 2 from Keyspan. For three years. Nothing wrong with the boiler, just the idiot who installed it. It was 3x bigger than needed, it failed to meet the National combustion air requirements in the basement (because it was way oversized), and it was piped wrong.

First piece of advice is to find a good installer.

Second piece of advice is to size the boiler to your heat loss and indirect water heater needs. A good installer will do this.

Third piece of advice is to consider a better boiler. The entry level Series 2 is a standing pilot, atmospheric draft. That's very low end by today's standards.

If they are offering the SCG or PVG, consider them.

If they are offering the Revolution, consider that. The additional cost probably pays back in a couple years. (I have one. I like it.)

Are they offering anything else?

My preference for zoning would be all circulators. I would consider zone valves for the space heating if the loops are reasonably small and comparably sized so they can be served by a typical residential circulator like a Taco 007.

Indirect manufacturers prefer a dedicated circulator. Go that route.
 
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Old 11-15-07, 10:53 PM
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Speaking of Indirect hot water manufactures what manufacturer should i go with for a indirect hot water heater should i go with burnham or another. Right now i have oil HWH and i have a bock it is 20 years old and very happy with it. I did some research and see that bock makes a indirect hwh but i see they both have different designed coils

http://www.burnham.com/PDF/Alliance%...ure%205-07.pdf

http://www.bockwaterheaters.com/Prod...eKickFront.pdf

Please let me know what you think THanks
 
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Old 11-16-07, 04:13 AM
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They each have their virtues.

You might also consider the Ultra or Contender from htproducts (http://www.htproducts.com) and the PhaseIII from Triangle Tube (http://www.triangletube.com/Residential/ProductIWH.htm).

See what your installer has to say.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 09:03 AM
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Well right now i am between a bock and a burnham if it was your house what would you put in?
 
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Old 11-16-07, 09:25 AM
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Bock is a commonly used oil-fired boiler but as an indirect I've never heard anything - it doesn't look serviceable as far as keeping the HX coils clean and won't likely have the same lifespan on the domestic side as a stainless steel tank or a hydrostone tank like the Burnham. The Burnham tank is made by Vaughn. The hydrostone domestic water portion tends to get get good feedback that it lasts a long time but the heat exchanger area and diameter is somewhat limited and may affect heat transfer, especially as the coils get gunked up through normal operation. The coils are removable for service, but me feelings would be that regular servicing would be a necessity down the line.

To echo xiphias, my choice in an indirect would be the Triangle -Tube Phase III which is also sold by Weil-McLain and Williamson. It's a self cleaning stainless steel design with tons of surface area that's very commonly regarded as a top tier indirect water heater.

It would go nice with a T-T Prestige boiler and use far less gas than the Burnham boiler although the install would obviously cost more.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 10:29 AM
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The next indirect I get will likely be a superstor solar 119 with boiler backup....

Between the Bock and the Burnham, it's a nearly a toss-up based on the points Who made, with slight edge to Burnham. In an open field, the TT would probably be what I'd go with.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 12:24 PM
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I called keyspan about the boiler rebate they told me the discounted price is for the series 2 with b numbers like b 205 but there is also a discounted price with PVG boilers but the lady told me that it is direct vented and it cannot vent through the chimney is this true?

And with the HWH Burnham is offering a lifetime warrenty for the indirect HWH which sounds good. Is it a big problem where the coils inside the tank get clogged with sediment or is it rare. Is there any maintance i can do to prevent that from happening like draining the water from the coils every so often or flushing them with a garden hose every so often or something like that. Because if i am going to go with a burnham boiler i think i am better off going with a burnham HWH
 
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Old 11-16-07, 12:44 PM
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Page 17 shows it can...

http://www.burnham.com/PDF/PVG_I&O.pdf


Do you know your heatloss? You should, otherwise you'll have an oversized boiler that will waste your money.

SlantFin has a free program called Heatloss Explorer which is available for free from their web site.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 03:57 PM
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I am getting a few estimates and they measured my baseboards to do the calculation on what side boiler i need. they just didn't get back to me with the results yet.

I called burnham and 2 reps told me that the PVG boiler cannot be vented through the chimney so i don't know who to believe here. The rep told me that the only gas boilers which could be is the series 2 and the independence and that is it

I noticed in the literature that the burnham HWH does not have anode rods. I thought all HWH's have anode rods how is this possible and is this a good or bad thing?
 
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Old 11-16-07, 06:40 PM
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I also read the coil on the burnham is removeable I think this is a good feature so the thing could be taken out and cleaned every so often. What you guys think.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 08:27 PM
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The Burnham tank has a removable heat exchanger for cleaning. As stated before, I'm pretty sure you'd be using it... just don't know the frequency.

As for the chimney, maybe it's a matter of clarification. You wouldn't be venting in the chimney per se. What you'd be doing is using the chimney as a chaseway for the venting (providing it fits). We ran the 3" PVC for my modcon up the chimney vent (6x6) and it just barely fit.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 09:00 PM
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Thank You for the clarafication what are the major advantages of the PVG Boiler over the series 2 i know it is a little better efficency but is there anything else.
 
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Old 11-16-07, 11:14 PM
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To be very frank, I'm surprised the sale of NG fired conventional boilers hasn't been outlawed yet. It's around the freezing mark right now. The only advantage that I could ever see in a conventional boiler would be that I can count on the chimney to keep my hands warm all night should I ever sleep on the roof - even when the boiler hasn't fired for a long time.

Contact Triangle-Tube and find the rep for your area and see about getting a quote on one. It's an expensive boiler but costs less to pipe or vent and has great controls. The best part is your exhaust temperature runs somewhere between your supply and your return temp. Not many BTUs wasted.

What's your expected annual gas bill for the heating portion?
 
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Old 11-17-07, 08:41 AM
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The more serviceable indirect would be preferred if you have poor water quality (well water, hard water, sediment-laden water, etc.). If you have good water quality, serviceability is probably slightly less of a consideration.

As Who said, the PVG appears to be able to be vented up the chimney using the chimney as a chaseway for the approved vent piping. Not a big deal, done all the time.

Some illustrative age comparisons. Not exactly, but in relative terms.

The Series2 is basically 1950s technology -- big hunk of cast iron with a standing pilot that uses atmospheric draft for venting. About the lowest efficiency boiler these days. There are still many many boilers out there that run at ~80%. Like Who, I find it surprising.

The PVG is maybe 1980s technology. It has a power vent to deal with more difficult venting situations, but still uses basement air for combustion. It has a better heat exchanger and piping/venting design to get a couple more percent efficiency. It has an electronic ignition so you don't have a pilot light.

IMHO, if you are staying in the house for a long time, then it is worth a grand or so now to get a 1990s or 2000s technology boiler. I'm also not a fan of using basement air for combustion (somewhat tainted by previous bad experience, see above). Although I think the various high-tech modulating/condensing boilers still have a ways to go to prove their total lifetime and life-cycle cost is worth it, there are good cast iron boilers out there that will last a long time and be pretty efficient. Burnham Revolution leaps to mind, Buderus GA series as well.
 
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Old 11-17-07, 10:27 AM
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I really don't think my water quality can be that bad since i have a bock water heater which is 20 years old and still kicking. But it can't hurt to have a removeable heat exchanger and no anode rods to worry about.

As for the boiler if i am going to gain efficency and it is worthwhile to get a better boiler i will. I am not moving anytime soon at all.

The Burnham Revolution series looks real nice. What is bad about using basement air for combustion? I am a little confused about this whole ventalation thing because i see in the some diagrams there are 2 pipes coming out of boiler and in others there are one and in others one pipe is going tying into another pipe. I do not want to have pipes going out of my house i would like to use my chimney. Can they run both pipes up the chimney.

The budurus boiler looks like it is real high quality. But it looks pricy. Is it hard to find parts for? If it were your house would you get the burnham or the Budurus?
 
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Old 11-26-07, 03:07 PM
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Still in the process of getting estimates everyone i bring over here is recommonding the series 2 i don't know why they are telling me i will not make my money back for ten years if i get a different higher effecincy boiler and by then i would want to replace it because there would be better heating technology out there. Then they are telling me the series 2 is extremely reliable and there is really nothing on it to go bad no ignitor, static pilot basic setup. Then asked how much it costs a year to keep pilot on he said $100!! Is this true? He told me i would be better off with static pilot because ignitor module cost $500 and he says they go bad all the time. Is this true?

I am really looking at the burnham PVG since i can get it only for a few hundred dollars more then the series 2 through keyspan and it has an effecincy rating of over 85% and the series 2 is like 81%. Everyone i bring over here says that i cannot bring pipe through chimney with the pvg and they are telling me that i have no place to vent through the wall because windows are to close plus air conditioner too close as well. they said the SCG i can bring 2 pvc pipes up the chimney that would be ok but that is not part of the deal with keyspan and they are giving me large quotes for just the boiler so who is correct here

I measured my baseboards in the house i have 170 feet of baseboards i times that by 600 i came up with 102,000 btu's so what size boiler should i go with along with indirect HWH 50 Gallon
 
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Old 11-26-07, 06:59 PM
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Boiler

In today's energy market & with environmental concerns, no way would I install a standing pilot boiler in my house. You may only use $100 worth of gas for the pilot but the reduced efficiency will cost you a lot more over time. I've heard rumblings about the outlawing of new standing pilot equipment. When it will come about, I don't know, but it's coming.

Ignition modules are generally quite reliable & don't cost anywhere near $500, at least not the one's I've replaced.

Here is a link to the installation manual for the PVG series where you can read the venting requirements for yourself:
http://www.burnham.com/PDF/PVG_I&O.pdf

Regarding sizing of the boiler, you need to run a heat loss calculation. Slantfin.com has a good one (free) called Hydronic Explorer. Input the data & it will tell you how much boiler you need. Don't be surprised if it comes up quite a bit smaller than you think. Nearly every house is over loaded with baseboard.
 
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Old 11-26-07, 09:22 PM
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It is my house and I got the Burnham (Revolution). It's a solid boiler and should last a long time. The efficiency over its Series 2 predecessor is about 10-23% (better in the shoulder seasons than the dead of winter), and I'm taking that to the bank. The reset control already paid for itself.

That said, Buderus is very good equipment as well.

As Grady said, it's important to do a proper heat loss. However, if you have a 50gal indirect, then probably a ~100k BTU boiler would be fine. Overkill for the baseboards, but would keep the indirect happy.

The installers may be right about venting and proximity to windows. IIRC it's 3-4ft vertically and horizontally for required clearance.

Having had a doofus install a hugely oversized boiler that consumed all the available combustion air in my basement and made the CO alarm go off, I'm shy of using an atmospheric boiler. My bias. There are millions out there that work just fine.

IMHO, in the year 2007 you should be able to do a lot better than an 80% AFUE atmospheric, standing-pilot boiler. You don't need the truly fancy stuff, but 85%-90% efficiency should be a given. Fuel prices are going nowhere but up. Do it once, do it right, or as close to right as you can get for the next decade or so.
 
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Old 11-27-07, 05:38 PM
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The PVG can utilize the non-used chimney as a chase as well as the SCG. The both vent in AL29-4C stainless. The SCG can use PVC for intake air. The Revolution also can use the chimney as a chase as power vented or sealed combustion.
The Revolution already has boiler protection built in if you have cast iron radiation. As stated above the ignition modules are not much problem today unless the boiler is installed in a confined space.
Also as stated here DO NOT SIZE A BOILER OFF THE RADIATION!!!!! The amount of radiation in a house has absolutely no bearing on boiler sizing at all. Put a different way it does not matter how much radiation the home has when you buy a new boiler. A lot of people size off radiation but it is not an indicator of boiler size. The amount of radiation will affect near boiler piping.
Also consider outdoor reset. It alone will save you 15%+. I have seen outdoor reset save as much as 25%. If you chose the Revolution I would use only two stage outdoor reset and not just a single stage reset. The two stage reset control will save more on the Revolution than a single stage reset control.
The indirect is a good choice but must be considered when sizing the boiler. Do not oversize the indirect either.
 
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Old 11-27-07, 06:59 PM
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Thanks for the input

Someone told me that the PVG is noisy when it is running is this true. How loud is it?

Is there anything bad about using basement air for combustion. Someone told me it is not a good thing. Right in my boiler room i have a screened in vent which goes directly to the outside is this a good thing?

Are you saying that with the PVG the pipe they would use is AL29-4C?
 
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Old 11-27-07, 07:30 PM
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Under normal condition there is nothing wrong with using indoor air providing there is enough of it. With the vent you have it may be enough. The air required is 1sq in of fresh air opening per 4000 btu’s of boiler size.
Yes the contractor is required to use AL29-4c stainless steel pipe. The SCG and Revolution can be direct vented with 1’ clearance from doors and windows.
 
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Old 11-30-07, 10:58 AM
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If i decide to and am able to direct vent out the wall does the pipe stick out far outside the wall or is it like a dryer vent that gets mounted flush againist the house?

Got another estimate today and the guy told me that the pvg they are using a static pilot on it because they were having problems with ignition module is this true?

Is PVG very noisy?

I would also like them to run gas lines to my range and dryer but the only way to get there is through the ceiling and the floor joists run againist the way i need to go. Range is on the way to dryer so it is not out of the way. They all are saying that it will not be easy to run iron pipe through floor joists they said there would be too many couplings is this true. THey have to go through about 8 floor joists Have to use iron pipe i would prefer not to use csst

Is Taco 007 circulator good enough for indirect HWH i am going to get Well mclain indirect made my triangle tube but i would like a 50 gal but they only make a 40 and a 60 should i go for the 60 or stick with the 40?
 

Last edited by Rschrei518; 11-30-07 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 11-30-07, 11:29 AM
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What is bad about using basement air for combustion?
It's not that it's generally a bad idea, it's just that it isn't ideal. If your heating system is sucking in air from the basement (which in effect means the whole house), that creates 2 potential issues and those issues vary with how tight your house is. Tighter/more efficient houses are affected more.

The first is that it affects your venting. Any vents, whether it is a kitchen range hood, a fireplace, the boiler exhaust just don't work as well. That increases the risk of exposure to anything you are trying to vent, which could possibly cause carbon monoxide issues.

The second issue is of the air that does get supplied how much of it gets sucked in through walls and small points of infiltration. The cool air being brought in from outside your home through your walls carries for more moisture than it can carry inside. If it loses its moisture in the wall cavities, then that reduces the R value of many insulation materials like fibreglass and could in extreme situations cause mold.

Bottom line...

Best air is from the outside, but if the house is leaky enough it doesn't matter much.
 
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Old 11-30-07, 01:49 PM
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In My Boiler room i have a screened in vent which goes directly to the outside so wouldn't this help the situation?
 
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Old 11-30-07, 02:13 PM
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Yes, sized right that's ideal - except for the heat you lose. That heat loss potential can be minimized if you run a vent pipe from that hole down to just off the floor, but inside a bucket. That will make a fairly effective thermal trap but still allow the boiler to easily get the air needed for combustion.
 
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Old 11-30-07, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rschrei518 View Post
Is Taco 007 circulator good enough for indirect HWH i am going to get Well mclain indirect made my triangle tube but i would like a 50 gal but they only make a 40 and a 60 should i go for the 60 or stick with the 40?
The Taco 007 is just fine for it, although I prefer Grundfos 15-58.

The Ultra 60 (which is the same as the T-T Smart 50) has a DHW capacity of 46 gallons. It also has 1¼" fittings instead of 1" and the boiler water side holds 8 gallons instead of 6 gallons.

I'd seriously go with the bigger tank to reduce the number of times your boiler has to fire for recovery.
 
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Old 11-30-07, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Who View Post
...The cool air being brought in from outside your home through your walls carries for more moisture than it can carry inside...
I don't think that's quite right Who-man! Warm inside air has a MUCH higher capacity to adsorb humidity. The cold air infiltrating from outdoors is absolutely drier than inside air. Cold air infiltrating warm areas will almost never condense.
 
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Old 11-30-07, 04:20 PM
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Gas Piping

Why not run the pipe under the floor joists? Finished ceiling attached to the underside? I too prefer steel to csst but some applications almost force the use of the corrigated.
 
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Old 11-30-07, 04:55 PM
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Jeff, thanks... let me rephrase, where the warm inside air meets the cold outside air, the moisture will fall out... into the insulation... same net effect.

Grady, around here they just call the new gas piping crap "stainless steel"...
 
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Old 11-30-07, 05:10 PM
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Csst

Who: They call it stainless steel because that is what is made of. Corrigated Stainless Steel Tubing
 
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Old 11-30-07, 05:16 PM
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What do you guys mean run under the floor joists then my ceiling won't be flush with the rest of the ceiling and i don't want any soffit or bulkhead so is it really that hard to rrun the iron pipe through the floor joists They have to go through about 8 of them and i believe it is 3/4 to feed range and dryer. Is it plausable or is it really that hard?

Why do you prefer the grundfos over the taco 007 does the grundfos pump more gpm should i use the grundfos for my reg 2 zones also?
 
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Old 11-30-07, 06:14 PM
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Gas Piping/Circulator

It looks like you are going to have to use csst. I seriously doubt an inspector would allow a coupling every 16". If the ceiling is already in place & attached to the floor joists, how is anybody going to run any kind of pipe without damaging the ceiling? If the ceiling is not already there, you could use a suspended ceiling a few inches below the floor joists.

Yes, you could use the Grundfos anywhere you would use the 007. The benefit of the Grundfos is it's 3 speed capability.
 
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Old 12-01-07, 09:05 AM
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I am not worried about taking down the sheetrock after they run the pipe i will bring someone in to repair it.

I wanted to try and avoid csst all the plumbers i bring over here say it is in limbo right now and not too safe and they would not use it in their own house. Some are saying it is banned and others say it is still legal but they won't use it i would really prefer iron pipe but are you guys really saying that there cannot be a coupling every 16 inches if the system is mercury tested and tests ok why should the inspector care?
 
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Old 12-01-07, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rschrei518 View Post
..i would really prefer iron pipe but are you guys really saying that there cannot be a coupling every 16 inches if the system is mercury tested and tests ok why should the inspector care?
The inspector is concerned with safety issues and code issues. I'm not too hip to the gas piping codes, but I'd be willing to bet there are stipulations about "no more than x number of couplings, etc" . And, even though the system might be tested leak-free upon installation, every coupling adds a _potential_ leak source.

If there's room, and structure won't be compromised, I don't see why they couldn't get a single length of black pipe through 8 joists. There is _some_ flex to it, maybe enough to slide it through 8 holes if they are close enough to the edge of the joist. Like I sed though, I'm not too up on gas piping, so take this with a grain of salt ...
 
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Old 12-01-07, 02:29 PM
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Just trying to think outside the box, but...

Is there any way the you could feed a longer length of pipe from outside the house to go through the joists? Then it could be one straight shot...

Sad part is soft copper would be ideal for that gas line run, but that would most likely get poo-pood in most jurisdictions.
 
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Old 12-01-07, 02:33 PM
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No i wish it was that easy area i need to go is not on outside wall i wish it was that easy
 
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Old 12-03-07, 05:39 PM
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Sorry to ask so many questions regarding this topic but i want to make sure i do this right the first time i would like to go with the pvg because i think it is the best option and will pay for itself over time. My questions are

Is the PVG noisy? Right now i have oil burners so is it more noisy then an oil burner?

I brought in a few chimney people for estimates and they didn't give me a straight answer what should i do should i direct vent right out the wall so i don't have to get a chimney liner or should i have the chimney lined with al29-c4 and run it up the chimney? Is there any upsides or downsides of going either way?

The chimney guys told me they use 316 steel which i guess i can't use for the pvg so how much money would it cost for a al29-c4 liner? They weren't sure what al29-c4 even was

If i direct vent out the wall will the heat damage my house at all i have painted cedar on my house?

Does the Pipe stick out far outside the house or is it flush with the house and looks like a dryer vent?

Is the PVG noisy? Right now i have oil burners so is it more noisy then an oil burner?


Thank You I really appreciate the help
 
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Old 12-03-07, 06:50 PM
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I could not speak to the noise. In general power vented appliances make a bit of noise. Whether it's more than an oil burner, I could not say.

Check out http://www.burnham.com/PDF/PVG_I&O.pdf
and on p. 15 you can see what a sidewall vent looks like. Shouldn't be a problem for your siding.

If you are going sidewall vent, then I suggest getting the SCG. I like sealed combustion, and the sidewall profile is narrower, too.

3"dia x 4ft long al29-4c is about $50, according to a quick google.
 
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Old 12-04-07, 06:32 PM
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I think i got this figured out pretty good. I was doing a little research and wanted to know a little about getting an outdoor reset,

Is the constant temperature swings of the boiler water temperature bad for the boiler?

Will it work with an indirect Hot water heater? Will the Indirect water heater still heat up as fast?

Is this something i can install myself or should i have my plumber do it? How much should i expect to pay to have one installed?

Are they generally reliable?

How much can this really save me? Can't i do the same thing by adjusting the aquastat on the milder days and for the summer?
 
 

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