Hi Guys,

Wonderful site..very informative!!

First, I'm not a pro plumber so all work shown was done by me with plenty of help from local supply house.
My question is stopping ghost flow and optimizing system performance.

Boiler is approx 7 years old and was moved into new mech room. Boiler sat for approx 3 months(disconnected) and collected some light rust internally. 4 circs and flow-checks are same vintage-same light rust.
OK....new manifolds and piping installed, 2 new zones added w/new circs and flow checks,system filled with water, air bled (quite a bit !!) boiler fired. I flushed boiler as best as I could while bleeding air from system. Some light sediment still remains(will flush again in spring).
1. I know flow checks are too close to circs (box says they need to be 12" away ) WHY?
2. Flow checks are set verticle with adjustment knobs on side. Will this cause them to stick ever stick open or not fully seat because they are not sitting verticle (bobber)? I did inspect the bobber inside and cleaned all rust and scale from seat, but they still are obviously not fully seating.
3. Would I benefit from removing flow checks and installing motorized zone controllers on each zone?
I can tell by returning water temp guages on each zone that nearby zones move water when other zone(s) call for heat. Again, from what I've read, flow checks are not doing their job. Will remaining scale in system cause flow check(s) to again stick open?
Also, Taco 506 relay.
Link to pics below (I think)
Thanks for any help or input!

 

Only one pic showed up in your message, here's a link to the whole album... I think that's what you wanted to do ?

All Pics

Yeah, the flow-cheks need to be horizontal. There's a disc inside that seats by gravity, and gravity don't pull sideways.

In addition to the 12" ahead of the flow-check, there should be 18" ahead of the air scoop. These distances are needed to assure a smooth flow through the devices in order for them to work properly.

No, absolutely do not use zone valves!

And that circ with the motor mounted vertically, unless you are running over 20PSI in the system, that's a no-no... pump could cavitate in that position.

That oil filter hanging out there is an accident waiting to happen. And the copper tubing along the floor needs protection, it should not be in contact with the concrete.

How did the code inspections go ?

I'm goin' to look at the rest of the pics now... overall looks like a pretty nice job to me!

 

Hi,
Thanks for the info and reply.
The copper line goes into a piece of pvc pipe back to the tank. The pvc starts just outside the photo. I think I'll extend the covering with a piece of flex counduit to the filter assy. Any suggestions on how to better the oil filter assembly?

As far as the 18" distance is concerned, the space in that room is super tight. Thats all that I have. I had to maintain distances to electrical panels, etc. House is on slab w/no basement.

Inspector was more concerned with fresh air intake than anything else(forgot to add one..whoops).

So for circ facing wrong way, I'll remove it and move that zone to spare zone closest to scoop(moved zone is radiant floor loop). Any further thoughts on flow checks? 3 of the supply and return loops go down through the slab and I dont see how I can put the flow checks upright. What if I switch to a spring loaded flow check?

Thanks, George

 

those flow checks will absolutely not work as shown!!!

The easiest solution would be to see if those circulators can be retrofitted with internal flow check valves (IFC). Most circulators can be ordered with them, and they are removeable, so I assume the reverse would be true? Faced with a repiping of those checkvalves, installing new circulators with IFCs might be the cheaper option.

 

The flow checks can be actually be fixed quite simply... just put an elbow where the current flow checks are. Then run enough of a horizantal and then install the flow checks... they can all angle off beside each other. From the bottom of the flow checks, just continue as is to the pex and then grab a cold one! ;-)

Elbows, nipples and pipe dope to the rescue... LOL

 

I didn't read it was a DIY project! Since he does such nice, neat BI work, I'd guess it would be an easy fix for him to do!

Pete

 

Hi
Thanks again for the reply. So if I understand you correctly,
I should use a 6" nipple off of the circ plate, an elbow, than another 6" nipple (to get the 12" distance) to the flow check.
Also, the flow check has 2 inlet and 1 outlet..so I need to come out of the oppsite side of the flow check inlet then another elbow and down to the pex. The plug will then go into the un-used inlet port (which will now be on the bottom)Right? I hope.

If you were able to look at all of the photos, you can see that I pushed the radiant floor loop tight to the back wall. I can move this to an adjacent wall then put the flow check for that zone in line.

Thanks for your help!!!

 

Ackshully George, the 12" is supposed to be a straight run.

Does the install say 12" before AND after ? If only BEFORE, then you would need a 12" nipple between the elbow and the F/C.

What if you 'staggered' them ? In other words, drop one down a few inches, to an elbow pointing left, then a 12" nip, then the PEX, drop next one a few more inches, elbow left, 12" nip, F/C, Pex ... repeat, etc ... It appears you might have room to do that.

For the air scoop, you could consider replacing that one with a Spirovent which does a better job and doesn't require the straight run ahead of it.

I would look at mounting the filter back along the wall on a bracket, run the oil line behind the boiler and come up to the burner on the other side. Use 3/8" foam pipe insulation for protection.

Can't you just turn the flanges on that vertical circ ?

 

An elbow where the flow check is now.

What size pipe is that? You're supposed to have 12 PDs (pipe diameters) leading in so with 3/4" pipe, you should have a 9" nipple (I can't see a 6" nipple ending the world but I've been wrong a lot lately). Then hang the flow check out at the end and drop a nipple to connect the pex.

You twist pipe extremely nicely. I really like a boiler room done in black iron. Excellent workmanship!

 

Who, I think we're saying the same thing ? if I understand correctly ? yer not suggesting using the bottom port of the f/c though, right ? cuz that's an inlet. Am we following each other ?

 

Jeff, I was actually suggesting that - my bad. Wrong direction...

Ira,
Any chance you could move the flow-checks over to the returns?

 

Better yet try using grundfoss circs with the integral flo-check....the UPS 15-58 FRC Super Brute is a fantastic 3 speed pump that has a 3 year warrantee Taco's only carry 1 year.........see if you can replace that air scoop with a Spiro Vent or similar air removal device...no minimum of straight pipe needed up or down stream

 

Nice looking job but it doesn't work. Bummer

I would have to agree with Poorplmbr. The easiest & maybe cheapest way out is replacing the circulators with the ones he suggested. The Spirovent would, as he also pointed out, take care of the air removal without the need for an 18" straight run. It would be a crime to put in a bunch of elbows just to fix the flow check problem; not to mention, a lot of work.

Oil piping: If you brought the line around behind the boiler, the filter would be out of harm's way at cleaning time. Most supply houses sell flex lines made of braided stainless. Not only do they give if some bigfooted oaf is there, but it makes swinging open the boiler door or changing the pump strainer much easier.

Fresh Air: Field Controls makes a combustion air kit to fit directly onto the burner.

 

hmmmm... easiest ? yes ... cheapest ? I dunno... them 15-58's are going for around $70 each... times how many circs ? 5 ? 6 ?

How much are black elbows ? a buckertwo each ?

And, I get the feeling septicguy has fun twistin' black.

 

Hey, he might be able to recover a portion of his investment by selling circs & flow checks. If he can, & I doubt it, install IFC's in the existing 007's, just take out the checks & replace w/nipples.

 

If he sold em cheap enough, I'd buy two of each !

 

It's not often I'm ever suggesting a cheaper solution!!!

I wouldn't be surprised if SG already has most of the stuff or could get at least get it in 30 minutes for under $30...

 

Man, I wish I could spend the time to make a job look like that but my customers couldn't, or more likely would say they couldn't, afford it. Pipe work like that takes time. Ask Pete.