oil tank set up


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Old 12-06-07, 07:29 AM
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oil tank set up

Last year I moved my oil tanks from one side of my basement to the old coal room.
Since I am finishing the space I ran the feed line up about 8 feet in the rafters for about 10 or so feet the back down into the mech. room. It works fine until there is a long delay in the heater firing (no demand). When trying to fire again I get the fault lite on the controller. pressing the button once remedies the situation but it a pain in the butt. I installed a swing check in the vertical portion of the line at the rise about 8 inches from floor, since I assumed I was losing prime but to no avail. any suggestions?

Eastern Pa
Thermodynamics S series
189,000 btu
Cast baseboard, 4 zone
 
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Old 12-06-07, 09:12 AM
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In the Ceiling?

I think that the oil lines like to run on the ground. However there are ways around it. You have to download the oil pump manual and see where the connections go.

I did have something from beckett or Delaven nozzles that explained everything but I can not find i right now.

BOB
 
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Old 12-06-07, 09:14 AM
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Its a Beckett

In the ceiling I mean in the rafters above drop ceiling in the finished basement.
 
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Old 12-06-07, 02:50 PM
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Question any thoughts

I guess what I am asking is what is needed to keep prime at the pump? or where can I find the info from Beckett?
 
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Old 12-06-07, 03:14 PM
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Single pipe ? 3/8 tubing ?

Did you use all FLARE FITTINGS on the piping ? No compression fittings, right ?

One straight run from the tanks to the burner ?

Plug 'Tiger Loop' into google, enclosed in quotes and see if you think that might be a solution.
 
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Old 12-06-07, 03:23 PM
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The Tiger Loop might help with air being sucked into the line, but I don't think it will stop the line from losing prime due to a bad fitting.

Peter
 
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Old 12-06-07, 04:06 PM
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3/8 tubing and flare fittings only Tiger loop looks like it may help I am going to check all my fittings again to be sure there are no leaks
Thx for the info
 
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Old 12-06-07, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by radioconnection
The Tiger Loop might help with air being sucked into the line, but I don't think it will stop the line from losing prime due to a bad fitting.

Peter
No, you are right, it won't. But the reserve that is stored in the Tiger Loop will be enough to keep the burner running long enough to get the oil pumping again.

The problem with overhead lines (single pipe in particular) is that the 3/8 tubing we normally use is actually TOO BIG . The documentation that comes with the TL kinda explains that. It has to do with SIPHONING.

Here's another example using the soda straw analogy again:

Glass of water. Drinking straw. Put the straw in the water, and put a finger over it. Lift straw out with finger on end, and water stays in straw.

Take a piece of 1/2" pipe, put in water. Finger over the end, lift it out. Does the water stay in the pipe now ?

Same thing happens with the oil in the 3/8 tubing. A smaller tubing would help, but I'm not sure code allows anything smaller than 3/8, and not sure why not. Anyone have any input to this question?
 
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Old 12-06-07, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RobDelaney
3/8 tubing and flare fittings only Tiger loop looks like it may help I am going to check all my fittings again to be sure there are no leaks
Thx for the info
One other thing you should be aware of... it is possible for there to be an AIR leak IN, but no OIL leaking OUT. That's the hard part about troubleshooting fuel piping. The air molecules are smaller than the oil molecules...
 
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Old 12-06-07, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE: "No, you are right, it won't. But the reserve that is stored in the Tiger Loop will be enough to keep the burner running long enough to get the oil pumping again."

Yeah, I agree, it may... But it would be an expensive band aid attempt to mask a problem instead of fixing it right.


Pete
 
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Old 12-06-07, 06:05 PM
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I installed a swing check in the vertical line leaving the tank (yes it is pointing the right way) wouldn't this stop the siphon problem even if there were a vacuum leak? There would be no negative pressure created by stopping the flow.
 
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Old 12-06-07, 07:56 PM
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Did you by any chance switch from 2 pipe to 1 pipe when you moved the tank ? If so, what did you do with the bypass plug in the oil pump ?

You would think the check valve would help... but what if it didn't create a tight seal ?

One other possibility is something I read somewhere that mentioned 'off gassing' of fuel oil under vacuum conditions. The gases trapped in the oil can come out of suspension when there is a vacuum... remote, but possible... maybe it's not air at all, maybe it's 'off gas' ?

That's all I can think of !
 
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Old 12-06-07, 08:07 PM
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No I wish it were as easy as 2 pipe mistake but alas only 1 pipe
But thanks everyone for their input
One more thing whats the easiest way to test the line after checking all of the fittings?
 
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Old 12-06-07, 09:13 PM
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Found the complete Suntec manuals

http://www.suntec.fr/Suntecus/Techni...Literature.htm

A few excerpts from it:
Max lift is 8ft
Fittings must be tight or loss of prime(use 37degree JIC flare fittings) Do not use compression or teflon tape
Do not use check valves(swing gate in your case)

I think the last one is what is getting you in trouble.

Enjoy the reading it is very detailed you can also download the pump manual also from the above website.

Would have found the info earlier but was on my way to work.

BOB
 
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Old 12-07-07, 05:33 AM
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suntec?

I have a beckett pump are the specs somewhat similar?
 
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Old 12-07-07, 05:36 AM
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pipe dope?

A plumber friend recommended a dab of thread sealer on the face of the JIC fitting to essentially seal the faces...a very little dab any truth to this?
 
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Old 12-07-07, 07:27 AM
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Pipe dope okay

The suntec manual states:

Use non-hardening thread sealing compound

Also for bleeding it says open port one turn, bleed for 15 seconds after clear oil begins flowing out of the port.

I believe the beckett still uses the suntec pump.

BOB
 
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Old 12-07-07, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RobDelaney
I have a beckett pump are the specs somewhat similar?
Same pump, manf by Suntec, branded for Beckett...

If memory serves, and you don't have the "clean-cut" version of the pump, it's an A2VA-7116 most likely.
 
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Old 12-07-07, 03:15 PM
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Never use any teflon-based pipe dope on those oil line threads!

Pete
 
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Old 12-07-07, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RobDelaney
A plumber friend recommended a dab of thread sealer on the face of the JIC fitting to essentially seal the faces...a very little dab any truth to this?

I've done that on domestic water piping unions, but never on oil. Personally I don't think it's a good idea... but no real reasons, only gut instinct... like little chunks of the sealant getting into the oil and fouling the screen on the pump, or worse, getting into the nozzle. If this is before a filter, then it might not be a problem as such, but I don't think it's gonna buy you anything. A properly formed flare is going to be air and oil tight.
 
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Old 12-07-07, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by radioconnection
Yeah, I agree, it may... But it would be an expensive band aid attempt to mask a problem instead of fixing it right.
I believe it was originally marketed for exactly that purpose... a band-aid for troublesome systems. Only later did folks start to realize it was a good idea for a number of other reasons...
 
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Old 12-07-07, 08:13 PM
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Line leaks

As I understand the original question, Rob doesn't say anything about having to bleed air. I understood he just resets the primary. If I am mistaken, Rob please correct me.

Do not use pipe dope on flare fittings. That fitting is a machined fit & if it requires some sort of sealant, something isn't right.
 
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Old 12-07-07, 08:19 PM
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That's the way I got it too Grady, and I guess that gives the oil enough time on the second try to navigate the siphoned oil line to the boiler. I am kinda surprised that it doesn't need to be bled and primed though...
 
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Old 12-07-07, 08:24 PM
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Bleeding

I'd be willing to wager if that system were bled long & hard, there is a trapped air pocket somewhere in the overhead horizontal run.
 
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Old 12-07-07, 08:28 PM
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You are exactly right. No bleeding required but it does take a little longer than normal to fire.
At the beginning of heat season I do have to bleed.
The leak must be almost microscopic because it takes approx 4 to 6 hours to lose prime so now that we are in colder days its fine (more demand)
 
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Old 12-07-07, 08:41 PM
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Bleeding not req'd

Yep, I smell an air pocket. Just out of curiosity; what type of fuel filter do you have (spin on, felt, or "gear tooth") & where in the system is it?
 
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Old 12-07-07, 09:36 PM
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whats a filter?................Just kidding its a Westwood and is located about 10 inches from the pump after the rise and drop.
For all intensive purposes the bottom of the tank is approx 6 inches higher then the inlet on the pump.
 
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Old 12-07-07, 09:39 PM
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sorry its also felt inners
 
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Old 12-07-07, 09:46 PM
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Westwood----Grrrr

I hate to tell you this but I've had more leaks (oil & air) with Westwood filters than everything else combined. You can try double gaskets on the can, bolt, & bleeder screw.
 
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Old 12-07-07, 09:50 PM
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I have heard this from many people here on other threads.
I got to tell you in the past three days I have learned alot.
You guys are great.
I started answering questions in Flooring and carpentry to return the Karma
Thanks again
 
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Old 12-07-07, 09:55 PM
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Thumbs up Good for You

We get quite a few who come here, ask questions, get help, & in return share their knowledge of other subjects with those who need help. Thank You
 
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Old 12-09-07, 09:54 PM
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Losing Prime

I hope this is an isolated incident. This evening I came home and was without heat on my Lennox forced hot air furnace that has a Beckett burner. This furnace was installed last October by a licensed Lennox installer.

Upon discovering the no heat situation I pressed the reset button and had no luck. So I called the installer and he came over and was stumped. He asked me if I had recently ran out of oil which I hadn't and then he bled the line and got the burner to fire. It appears to be running fine now but I am at a loss as to what happened. This scares me because our family will be away for two weeks after Christmas and a lock out would be a disaster with the cold New England weather.

My system is a two line system. I thought two line systems could not become air bound. Today I was proven wrong. There is in my opinion no reason for a two line system. Also I have a Gar-ber spin on filter (brand new last year since I never had central heat before just a vented kerosene stove). So everything is new except for the 275 gallon tank.

The whole reason for getting a central heating system was safety and dependability. Now I have lost confidence in the system.

Could my recent oil delivery have introduced air into the system? I know air leaks in the unions are possible but I had the furnace shut down all summer and it never lost its prime.

Also, what are your feelings about two line systems? My elderly mother has a single line system and has never had such a problem.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 12-10-07, 08:59 PM
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2-Pipe Fuel System

In my opinion they should be outlawed and indeed are in at least one Maryland county. Did your service person check the vacuum on the fuel system?

Lost confidence: Honeywell makes a device called a "Winter Watchman". This is a thermostat like device which you plug into a receptacle & plug a lamp into. Put a colored bulb in the lamp to attract more attention & put the lamp near a window. If the temperature drops below the set point of the winter watchman, the light will come on & a neighbor could call the service company for you. Here is a place which sells them online:
http://patriot-supply.com/search.cfm...hman&search=Go
 
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Old 12-10-07, 09:03 PM
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I've also seen devices that will call YOU in the event. Offhand I don't remember where I saw them, but a google search should turn something up.

Maybe X10.com ???
 
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Old 12-10-07, 10:55 PM
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Happened Again

Thanks Grady and NJ Trooper for the prompt reply.

When I arrived home this evening the system was locked out again. I called the installer and he tried bleeding the line again but couldn't get it to fire this time. He ended up replacing the spin on filter, checked the punp screen (which was clean as a whistle and put on a new nozzle (Delevan .50gph 80A). The old nozzle was the same size but was a Delavan Del-O-flow. I'm not sure which is better or if it will make a difference. He said if it happens again he would put in a .65gph nozzle. No, he did not do a vacuum test...should he of and what will that reading tell him?

"Outlaw" two line systems? Sounds pretty drastic but I do believe that the two line system is causing or at least contributing to the problem. I know from what I've read that they will mess up a filter MUCH faster than a single line system.

Thanks for the link to the site for the warning device. I will be ordering one today. I have GREAT neighbors who would be more than happy to keep an eye out for the light. I will even leave them a key to the house and the installers phone number.

Thanks again!!!
 
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Old 12-11-07, 07:51 PM
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2 Pipe, etc.

If you are only firing a .50 nozzle, I suggest a Del-O-Flow nozzle. They are specifically made for low flow rates. Far less subject to clogging.

Most spin on filter adaptors have a tapping for a vacuum gauge. I have no idea why the installer would not have put one on. I hate to tell you this but Lennox used to make a fine oil fired furnace but no more. I hope you don't have the Beckett AF II burner.

At a firing rate of .50 gph, & a 2 pipe system, you are pumping almost 35 gallons for each gallon you burn. Ask your installer to get rid of the two pipe & install a Tiger Loop.

The reason for outlawing a two pipe system is environmental. I have personally seen a full 275 gallon tank pumped onto the ground in less than a day, all because of a broken return line.

BTW, If you want to make that light even more eye catching, you can put a flasher under the light bulb. I think they still sell them.
 

Last edited by Grady; 12-11-07 at 07:54 PM. Reason: More Information
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Old 12-12-07, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
I hate to tell you this but Lennox used to make a fine oil fired furnace but no more. I hope you don't have the Beckett AF II.
Grady, unfortunately all products were MUCH better made years ago. Before purchasing the Lennox I looked at a lot of other models and picked it as the proverbial lesser of the evils. I wasn't impressed by any name brand or generic forced hot air furnace. They all appear to have the structural integrity of an aluminum beer can.

Yes I do have the Beckett AF II. I wasn't aware of them having any issues. I did notice that this newer generation burner is chintzy in appearace. I very much prefer the older Beckett AFG series because of the ruggedness. While I watched the installer take out the nozzle and electrode assembly I was shocked at the difference in quality between the better (in my opinion) AFG model vs. the AF II. The electrode ceramic insulator was significantly smaller and I do not like two wires going to the electrodes. I by far prefer the older spring contact set up.

I am capable of nozzle changes. Would you suggest I go to a higher flow (.60gph or .65gph) Del-O-Flow nozzle than the current Delevan .50gph nozzle? I called two local supply houses and much to my surprise they never heard of the Del-O-Flow nozzle. I just shook my head in disbelief. All they say is "we have Delavan nozzles." I guess I will have to order a dozen or so online to keep on hand.

I will be taking your advice and have an experienced installer convert the two line system and add a Tiger Loop after this heating season. I think the excess oil pumping with the two line system is foolish and I like the idea of having a de-aerator. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the conversion myself.

Thanks again!
 
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Old 12-13-07, 08:28 AM
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Lennox

"...structural integrity of an aluminum beer can."
Well put. About the only exceptions are Thermo-Pride & a couple of others. Sooo many people think because they buy a Lennox, Carrier, Trane, or any of the major names they are getting top shelf stuff. Glad to hear you are not one.

Your Lennox is exactly the same furnace as an Armstrong with the exceptions of the burner (Armstrong uses an AFG) and fan controls (the Lennox line uses a fan timer where Armstrong uses a conventional fan/limit).

The AF II is a touchy beast with which I've had terrible luck. It seems to be a knock off, and not a very good one at that, of the Riello which is excellent.

I suggest using the nozzle spec'd by the appliance manufacturer, whatever that may be. You must have a Model O23-70 furnace. Very unusual burner set-up on that furnace. Rare to see an AF II fired with 100# of pump pressure. I looked up the specs in Beckett's OEM spec guide.

In order that you need not buy a whole box of nozzles, I found the .50-80º A Del-0-Flow online here:
http://www.patriot-supply.com/search...flow&search=Go
 
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Old 12-13-07, 10:56 AM
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Check the vacuum on the system and calculate what it should be. This will tell you if you have a problem. You can also check for air leaks with an electronic sight glass. Most tech's do not have them but a very accurate way to not only determine if there is an air leak but where it is. How muck rise do you have on your supply pipe? How much drop do you have, and I think you already said you have about 10 feet hotizontal.
 
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Old 12-14-07, 07:37 PM
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rbeck the rise is 6ft and the drop is 4&1/2ft with 10 feet horizontal along the joists. The return and supply pipes enter the top of the tank via a bung type device that has two threaded brass flare fittings. I haven't a clue ast to what it's called. At least I haven't had any lock outs since the last service call.

Grady you hit it right on the button! It is a Lennox O23-70. Thank you for the link to the supply house for the nozzle. I am still going to buy them from Patriot in quantity (12) as I will be changing it a couple times a season to avoid another no heat situation. I'm pleased and grateful that you linked me to a site that has them at a very reasonable price. As I said in an earlier post I cannot find a supply house that has even heard of a Del-O-Flo nozzle. Even I knew what they were BEFORE I bought the furnace from reading up on the proper nozzle for my brothers hot water heater that we changed out a couple of years back.

Thanks guys! Merry Christmas to all!!
 
 

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