We just this week (1-3-2008) had a new Peerless steam boiler (Model WBV-03SP) installed in our home by our long time oil delivery company's very experienced plumber. The problem we are having is that when the boiler is on, it consumers all the water inside it and shuts itself off automatically (as it should) in about an hour!! We need to add water to it, using the manual feed-ball valve, every hour,if it is running, and less frequently, if it is firing on and off when not needed as much. This is a lot of water -at least 10 gallons or so each time per our oil company!

There are no signs of leaking water anywhere that we can see.The steam pipes run through some obstructed view crawl spaces (our house is 200 years old with fieldstone foundation) so we can't be 100% positive that the steam pipes are not broken or otherwise leaking. But given the amount of water we are adding, it seems likely that we would see puddles forming by now.

There is no visible steam escaping from our radiators. All the radiators are hot. There is no hissing noise or otherwise visible water loss from the radiators. Our installers believe that there is no steam escaping thru the chimney. Similarly our installers do not believe that boiler is cracked, which might cause water to leak into the flame chamber. Where could all this water be going??


ADDITIONAL BACKGROUND:
We needed to replace our former Burnham boiler because there was a crack which was causing water to leak into the flame chamber. The crack was getting progressively worse because we noticed that we had to add water to it about once a week. When inspected by our oil company/installer they noted soot and significant moisture inside the firebox and recommended replacement of the boiler. The Burnham boiler had cracked originally 10-15 years ago due to failure of the low water shut off and auto water feed to function properly. At that time the crack was sealed with some kind of sealer cement (and periodically resealed), which lasted until just now.

So it is true that we had a "water loss issue" prior to the new installation, but we thought we had a logical explanation for it and it was no where near as severe as the water loss we are now experiencing.

 

If you are not also experiencing floodback where the boiler water level is abnormally high at times then you have a leak, plain and simple.

If the boiler is shut down (I know, hard to do at this time of year) does the water level remain constant? Do you have the blowdown (drain) from the boiler and low water cut out piped to an open drain where you can observe if these valves are leaking?

 

Sounds like a leak to me too. Maybe the first boiler was not leaking after all.

What furd is referring to (in case you are not too technical with boilers) is that the water you are adding is permanently lost, not that it comes back after a while when the boiler cools off-----right?

If it came back and the water level was abnormally high when it cooled off, that would USUALLY mean that either the boiler is too small for the application or that the piping was done incorrectly.

Did the installer do a pressure test ---before ---installation? This is REQUIRED practice on ALL Peerless boilers and is also good practice for installing ANY brand boiler. It ADDS about 1-2 hours of labor to the job but a GOOD installer would do it.

This test would prove that the fault is not the boiler.

To locate the leak (if it is NOT the boiler) you will have to isolate the various piping circuits, plug any reliefs, and pressurize each circuit until you find the leaking one that is obstructed from your view. Quite a bit of work, even for a plumber.

The only other way the boiler could be leaking and you NOT being able to notice it is a leak into the combustion chamber and the water is getting turned into steam and sent out the flue.

Since you PAID good money to have it installed I would call the installers and ask them if they ever pressure tested the boiler before installation. If they tell you 'no' or if they don't remember, I suggest that they start with doing that first.

HOPEFULLY the problem is with the boiler because Peerless will compensate most of the cost to repair the boiler and supply the parts. IF it is the boiler you can always claim that they should have pressure tested it before installation which would have made it REAL easy to repair before installing it!

Peerless assumes and bases its adjustment on the fact that it will be tested and repaired if needed before installation. I have been through the process many times before. Leaks occur because of sloppy shipping and handling, not usually at the factory.

furd---SORRY, I did not mean to 'hijack' your post but I thought this might be helpful.

Good luck

Charlie

 

Try flooding the boiler. Completly fill the boiler with water (not the system) and look for wet spots or water dripping. This is not as good as a pressure teat but will normally find boiler leaks quicker. Personally I do not think it is a boiler leaking. I would suspect the previous boiler leeked due to adding too much fresh water. This is a problem with auto feeders on stem boilers without water meters. The auto feeder does not maintain the water at the proper level and the owner does not know how much water id beeing fed. Maintain the water level manually to the manufacturers Normal Water Level for the best production of steam. Sounds like a trip to the crawl space is in order.

 

The old boiler had a manual feed which I had to use about every 3 weeks or so until recently. The manual feed was installed 10-15 years ago when the auto feed and low water shut off malfunctioned.

We are very confident that the old boiler leaked water into the fire chamber, because of a sooty odor we were experiencing and also because our oil co. service technition said the chamber was wet and full of black soot/ash when he came to inspect itand cleaned it out. Just before replacing the old Burnham boiler, we had to add water using the manual feed about every three days (not every hour!!!).
There are no visible signs of leaking from the new boiler. When the boiler is shut off, we do not see an increase in water level.

What I find perplexing is that the new boiler is the only change we have made. Doesn't it seem too coincidental that right after the new boiler is installed that a leak (not related to the new boiler itself)develops? Also, aren't there really 2 types of leaks? One type would be steam escaping. Another would be condensate water leaking on its return to the boiler.

 

You are right, but I think you would see a steam leak unless it was in the crawlspace. Since water expands about 1500 times when converted to steam it would be easy to see that much steam leaking.
The condensate may be leaking in the crawl space. Those old return lines may have gotten weak at the threads due to acidic return water. It starts eating at the threads. Than the old boiler is cut loose and new black iron pipe fit to the existing system which means tightened into existing fittings. If there was weak joints they very well could have started to leak.

 

Thank you. So if I understand you correctly, it is most likely a leak of condensate returning to the boiler? But doesn't the steam and condensate share the same pipe for at least some distance? Again just to confirm what you saying-It could be that the jarring and movement of the return piping that occurred when the new boiler was installed may have caused some joints in the condensate pipe(s)to brake open and leak?If so, wouldn't the return pipes closer to the boiler itself be more likely to be the ones that break or not necessarily?

 

There are wet and dry returns. If it is a dry return it would be above the water line of the boiler and you would get mostly steam. If it is a wet return which is below the water line but could be higher than the bottom of the boiler and would be water.
Put on the miners helmet and start crawling

 

Thank you again for your reply. Our boiler is lower than all the pipes, so we must have "dry" returns? I had thought only water could "return" to the boiler.

What is the best way to locate the leak? I'm guessing that the boiler must be on and I would be looking for escaping steam (because I have dry returns)?

Also could you confirm that it was most likely the jarring of the pipes during installation that was most likely to cause a brake at a pipe joint?

 

If all your pipes are above the boiler I would have to assume it is not a condensate return leak. Are there main line vents leaking steam or water?
You can't be adding that much water to a tight system. It would be full of water. Do you see the water level in the sight glass and are both valves open?

 

Thanks again for your reply. There are no visble leaks of steam or water from anywhere. The sight glass loses all of its visible water after one hour of firing time. I then add manually water to fill about 3/4's of the sight glass. After another hour of firing it is down and i need to refill. The weird thing is that the boiler shuts off (presumably due to low water shut off) when sight glass is at the one inch level. However, there have been times when I check the boiler after it has been stopped for a while and I see absolutely no water in the sight glass. Any ideas why?




This process just keeps repeating itself. We shut off boiler for the night and start again in the morning. Installer is supposed to come back tomorrow to trouble shoot further

 

Try to keep us informed. If it is one pipe steam, be sure all radiator valves are fully open. Pressure should be set low, not above 2 psi cut-out. Preferably more like 1 psi cut-out, .5 cut-in. If it doesn't get resolved soon, maybe you could post a few pictures of the boiler and near-boiler piping.

Ken

 

Thank you.
All radiator valves are open. Installer says pressure is 0.5 (not sure cut-in versus cut-out). What is "one-pipe steam"?
Thanks for everything. I'll let you know what happens tomorrow.

 

One pipe steam is one pipe to the radiator. At this point i would flood the boiler. You cannot kepp adding water and it goes no place. The system would be full by now. Is the system quiet? How does it heat?