baseboard zone - heat won't stop
#1
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baseboard zone - heat won't stop
Hi,
I recently had a third zone (basement) added to our hot water oil fired baseboard heat. So now we have a 2nd floor, 1st floor, and basement zone . The problem is when the basement zone is on, heat is still getting to the first floor zone, even though the valve/relay for that zone is closed. The feed pipe for the 1st floor zone gets very hot, heats up two rooms upstairs, but the return never seems to heat up. The plumber who installed the new zone checked it out and was mystified too. Any thoughts?
Thanks a lot!
Jon
I recently had a third zone (basement) added to our hot water oil fired baseboard heat. So now we have a 2nd floor, 1st floor, and basement zone . The problem is when the basement zone is on, heat is still getting to the first floor zone, even though the valve/relay for that zone is closed. The feed pipe for the 1st floor zone gets very hot, heats up two rooms upstairs, but the return never seems to heat up. The plumber who installed the new zone checked it out and was mystified too. Any thoughts?
Thanks a lot!
Jon
#2
Very Baffling. Could you post pictures of the piping on www.photobucket.com and supply us with a like here? That would help in a situation like this.
Last edited by NJT; 02-02-08 at 11:16 AM. Reason: speeling eeror in url
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http://s273.photobucket.com/albums/jj224/jmnklc/
there are two photos - supply pipes going out, and returns w/3 Honeywell zone valves (I removed the covers). One thought I had - could a zone have some air in it and then fill with hot water as the other zone is turned on??
Thanks,Jon
there are two photos - supply pipes going out, and returns w/3 Honeywell zone valves (I removed the covers). One thought I had - could a zone have some air in it and then fill with hot water as the other zone is turned on??
Thanks,Jon
#6
Jon, I'm a little confused... I see 4 pipes coming off the supply, and only three zone valves.
I'm thinking that you've got a condition called "ghost flow" or "gravity flow" going on.
But, those zone valves don't always seal up 100% so it's also possible that there is a slight amount of 'leakage' in the first floor zone valve, enough to push some hot water part way up the first floor zone, but not enough that the water isn't cooled off by the time it returns to the boiler.
What to do about it ? not sure yet ... first, where is that other supply pipe going ? or, is there another return somewhere ? Perhaps two loops joining in a tee and coming back in through one zone valve ?
Is the cap on the automatic air vent on top of the air scoop loose to allow air to escape ?
Post some more pics showing at least one wide shot of the complete boiler, pump, etc ...
I'm thinking that you've got a condition called "ghost flow" or "gravity flow" going on.
But, those zone valves don't always seal up 100% so it's also possible that there is a slight amount of 'leakage' in the first floor zone valve, enough to push some hot water part way up the first floor zone, but not enough that the water isn't cooled off by the time it returns to the boiler.
What to do about it ? not sure yet ... first, where is that other supply pipe going ? or, is there another return somewhere ? Perhaps two loops joining in a tee and coming back in through one zone valve ?
Is the cap on the automatic air vent on top of the air scoop loose to allow air to escape ?
Post some more pics showing at least one wide shot of the complete boiler, pump, etc ...
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Is the cap on the automatic air vent on top of the air scoop loose to allow air to escape ?
What is that??
Ghosting is a good word for it. and Yes, there are two loops going off of the main feed for the first floor that join up before they return to Honeywell valve...
Do you think replacing the valve motor is the first step?
What is that??
Ghosting is a good word for it. and Yes, there are two loops going off of the main feed for the first floor that join up before they return to Honeywell valve...
Do you think replacing the valve motor is the first step?
#8
No, absolutely not, because there is more than likely absolutely nothing wrong with it.
We need to determine what's wrong before we start throwing parts at it ...
To do that, it might help to see the rest of the piping.
#9
Jon, were you present when your plumber was doing the work ?
How much of the piping around the zone valves did he 're-do' ?
I see what look like a few new couplings in the piping above the zone valves, and it looks like there was quite a bit of heat applied to the tee below the middle zone valve...
Is that the one for the first floor ?
Reason I ask : The 'ball' inside the zone valve that actually does the sealing of the water flow can be damaged by excess heat from soldering ...
just a thought ...
How much of the piping around the zone valves did he 're-do' ?
I see what look like a few new couplings in the piping above the zone valves, and it looks like there was quite a bit of heat applied to the tee below the middle zone valve...
Is that the one for the first floor ?
Reason I ask : The 'ball' inside the zone valve that actually does the sealing of the water flow can be damaged by excess heat from soldering ...
just a thought ...
Last edited by NJT; 02-03-08 at 09:35 AM.
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The "tire valve" above the expansion tank is open. One thought I had was - as you can see in one pix, the main feed pipe is 1.5" where the first floor loop pipe comes off, but narrows to 3/4" before we get to the basement loop (where that yellow shut-off handle is). Could this create a pressure differential as the pipe narrows and cause the "ghost flow"?
Would it be worth trying a check-flow valve on the beginning of the first floor pipe loop? Or should the main feed pipe stay at 1.5" where it feeds the basement loop?
Thanks,
Jon
Would it be worth trying a check-flow valve on the beginning of the first floor pipe loop? Or should the main feed pipe stay at 1.5" where it feeds the basement loop?
Thanks,
Jon
#11
If you've got ghosting, it's most likely due to the zone valve not sealing completely.
Please re-read my previous post / questions ...
A flow-check valve might _help_ or it might fix ... only because of the fact that the ghost flow might not be enough to open the check, but since the flow is in the 'correct' direction, the check valve might still open enough to allow some heat into that zone ...
The 3/4" off the main is fine, no problem with that.
The fact that you are getting flow into the zone when the zone valve is closed can mean only one thing ... (RARE exception below) ... some flow is leaking past your zone valve.
Are the zone valves installed in the correct 'direction' ?
It is _possible_ to have two-way flow in one pipe, but rare. I don't think that's your problem... but it is possible.
Please re-read my previous post / questions ...
A flow-check valve might _help_ or it might fix ... only because of the fact that the ghost flow might not be enough to open the check, but since the flow is in the 'correct' direction, the check valve might still open enough to allow some heat into that zone ...
The 3/4" off the main is fine, no problem with that.
The fact that you are getting flow into the zone when the zone valve is closed can mean only one thing ... (RARE exception below) ... some flow is leaking past your zone valve.
Are the zone valves installed in the correct 'direction' ?
It is _possible_ to have two-way flow in one pipe, but rare. I don't think that's your problem... but it is possible.
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I checked all the zone valves. They are all "arrow pointing down". The heat/soldering you noticed was actually where the 2nd floor zone valve is (the center pipe), where the plumber hooked up to the new zone.
To the left in the pix is the first floor valve (which above the pix is where the two 1st floor loops come together). The valve on the right is the new basement zone.
I thought a check-flow valve would stop water from migrating up the pipe if there was minimal pressure (from the other zone being open), put let the water flow when THAT zone was opened...but I'm NOT a plumber...
Thanks,Jon
To the left in the pix is the first floor valve (which above the pix is where the two 1st floor loops come together). The valve on the right is the new basement zone.
I thought a check-flow valve would stop water from migrating up the pipe if there was minimal pressure (from the other zone being open), put let the water flow when THAT zone was opened...but I'm NOT a plumber...
Thanks,Jon
#13
It might... I think if I were to try this that I would use the type that uses a 'weighted disc' rather than the in-line 'swing check' type.