Hot water heat water hammer with Honeywell zone valves

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Old 02-11-08, 01:53 PM
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Hot water heat water hammer with Honeywell zone valves

I’m posting this here to hopefully save someone else the trouble I went through trying to correct a water hammer problem on a hot water heating (hydronic) system that uses Honeywell V8043 F 1036 zone valves. In my case the zone valves (4) are on the supply side manifold and the single circulator pump (Grundfos) is on the return side manifold. A water hammer would almost always occur when one of the zone valves closed especially if the circulator continued to run because more than one zone valve was still open. Adding more tie down clamps to the pipes on each zone and insulating the heating elements in the baseboard registers with EDPM rubber gaskets offered no improvement. Experimentation with closing the ball valves that isolate each zone indicated that if the zone valves were moved from the supply manifold to the return manifold, the water hammer problem would go away - but to move them would be a lot of work. Other options I investigated were switching to Taco “slow closing” zone valves, adding a zone valve controller, putting each zone on it’s own circulator, or adding a water hammer arrestor to each zone on the supply side. I finally decided an easier and cheaper approach would be to try to use weaker springs to force each zone valve to close at a slower rate when the power was removed from the power head. Before replacing or stretching any springs, I noticed the V8043 zone valves have 2 springs and that when the short spring was disconnected, the valve still closed but at a much slower rate. Hence I disconnected the short spring on each of the 4 valves and have been running the system that way for a about a month and have had no problems with a water hammer or with de-energized zone valves being stuck in the open position.
 
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Old 02-11-08, 08:16 PM
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That has worked for about 12 years now. The valves will close too fast as water is still flowing in another zone. The valve tried to close too fast and would shut and bounce back open, close and bounce back open until if finally stayed closed. Removing one spring will close the valve slower and it will not bounce open and closed.
I do like all the mental exercise you went through to get the answer. It keeps up alert to figuring this stuff out.
 
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Old 02-19-08, 10:51 AM
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Similar situation

This is a little uncanny as I too have a hydronic system with 4 zones valves on the supply side, Grundfos circulator (single speed) on the return side and one zone (basement) that knocks because it closes too quickly. My zone valves are Honewell V8043G1018, all zone motors are recent replacements and absolutley no work has occurred on my system to have introduced air. There is NO set back t-stat on the zone that bangs. This phenomenon has only just started on a system that has been very trouble free and is getting very irritating at 2AM. My zones also have 2 springs but I'm not sure I want to get into disconnecting anything until I'm sure. Comments...insights?
 
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Old 02-20-08, 07:32 PM
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comments / insights

My system was trouble free for several years also. I have an air bleed system on it and have no explanation as to why the problem suddenly appeared unless sediment has built up from the iron boiler and is disturbing the flow path in such a way to facilitate the water hammer.

If I’m not mistaken, I believe the main difference between the V8043 G 1018 zone valve and the V8043 F 1036 is that the former has wires and the latter has a terminal block. The short spring on the left side of the valve as your facing the upright zone valve body can be easily disconnected and re-connected from the motor assembly with a pair of needle nose pliers without removing the power head. I wouldn’t recommend disconnecting the other spring instead because it is harder to get to and very difficult to re-attach. If you’re worried about damaging something, turn off the boiler, detach the short spring, use the lever on the bottom of the valve to open the valve manually and let it go so it closes. I think you’ll notice the valve still closes only much slower. If you’re still uncomfortable with this, you can re-attach the spring with some needle nose pliers, turn the boiler back on and everything will be back to the way it was originally.
 
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Old 02-21-08, 01:18 PM
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This is not a problem to disconnect a spring. Honeywell had a paper out on this years ago. They suggested it themselves.
 
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Old 02-21-08, 05:46 PM
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Thank you from another guy in Nova Scotia, Canada with a great but frustrating hot water system. The spring is coming off this weekend. Will post the results.
 
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Old 02-29-08, 05:57 AM
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Thank you, you nailed the problem. This is the first winter in our new house with a hot water system. That banging was really driving us nuts. I had two different people come and look at it with no results. I have been searching on the web for awhile and could not find a creditable answer to this problem until I came here. I took the spring off each zone valve(3) and it has been silent since. WOO HOOO....... I do have another question though. Do you think it would be worth replacing the honeywell valves with Taco valves when the season is over? thereby eliminating the problem of the other spring wearing out down the road and causing more problems.
 
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Old 02-29-08, 07:09 AM
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I would not until I had two. If the spring wears out reconnect the other and disconnect the worn out one. I personally like the fast action of the Honeywell as compaired to the Taco which could take 3 minutes to open.
 
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Old 03-11-08, 08:46 AM
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does anyone know if i can try this trick with Erie/Invensis
AG13AO2A or VT2343 (not sure which one applies) zone valves. i would love to mussle my boiler like gmogelesky and wishbone.
cheers
 
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Old 03-11-08, 06:10 PM
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Zone Valves

If they are dual spring, it's worth a try. I think the Erie motor is the same as Honeywell. Not sure about the spring arrangement.
 
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Old 12-23-08, 08:36 AM
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Which Zone valve spring?

This is great info, its already helped but I want to make sure I have removed the correct spring. Please orient me this way; looking at the end of the valve housing with the wiring block face and the manual control arm, is the spring on the left or the right?

Thanks for your help.
 
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Old 12-23-08, 03:18 PM
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Which Spring

Without having a valve in my hands to look at I can't tell you left or right. There are two springs, one longer than the other, disconnect the shorter one.
 
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Old 12-29-08, 09:50 PM
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skigyz

Bob, I moved your post to a new thread.
"Hammering Zones"
 
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Old 03-08-09, 12:51 PM
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Red face niose on two zone baseboard

Removing the spring works great! I removed the left short spring on zone two and the 2AM sounds went away! My heating system is only about 6 years old and never made noise before, then all of a sudden it started. I have it serviced twice a year and the service man new nothing about this fix.
thanks again.
snake82861
 
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Old 03-09-09, 09:30 PM
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A few things I learned about hammer noises...

Using the B&G manual I carefully calculated the length of pipe I had in my zones. Sure enough I was well beyond the capabilities of the Taco 007 pump I had. I replaced it with a much larger (much more expensive) pump, Taco 010, and the problem went away.

I also replaced the expansion tank with a larger unit which seems to have helped. I had 3 failed tanks in 4 years before that (no air cushion).

I have a total of 4 zones.
 
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Old 03-12-12, 10:09 AM
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Caesar1949

I also have been having the zone valve problem with water hammer when another zone is still calling for heat and the circ pump is on. I have taken off a spring, changed out the motor, checked the air tank, closed off the gate valve a little and still have the hammer. I ordered the ball valve replacement kit as a last test thinking maybe the ball valve seat is worn.
Does anyone think that the baal valve stem could be the problem? It is in shipment to me to install. Any other ideas? Please.
 
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Old 03-12-12, 03:42 PM
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Hi Caeser, I somehow doubt that changing the ball will help. But since the parts are on the way, it might be worth a try. You do realize that unless you have valves on each side of the valve it will require at least partial draining of the system?

Has this system always done this? In other words, do you have a 'history' with this problem?

Have you examined all the flow directions and are CERTAIN that the valve is not installed bassackwards? A backwards valve is a sure candidate for hammering.
 
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Old 03-13-12, 10:56 AM
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The valves are in the right flow direction. I have had the system since 1992 and changed out valve motors, an air tank and circ pump over the years in addtion to regular maintenance and inspection of boiler. Never had this problem with a hammer and it is only on the one zone valve that closes when another zone is heating. This zone valve is for the downstairs bedrooms and bathroom. I alos went under the crawl space and checked how the piping is supported and suspended, seems fine. That's got me stumped.
 
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Old 03-13-12, 02:55 PM
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checked the air tank,
How did you check it?

The only way to accurately check the air charge is with ZERO pressure on the water side of the tank, is that what you did?

If you check it with pressure on the water side, you won't get an accurate reading.

Those tanks lose about 1-2 PSI per year and should be recharged at LEAST every two years, if not yearly. There is a 'sticky' at the top of the forum that you should look at.

I'm not saying this will cure the hammer, but it might, and it certainly will make for a longer lasting tank, and forestall any relief valve spewing in the middle of the night...

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...sion-tank.html
 
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Old 03-13-12, 04:24 PM
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I have a shut off valve above the air tank. I shut it off unscrewed the air tank totally off and released the pressure and tested with a gauge. It was down a bit about 12 lbs pumped it up to 18lbs and put it back on. when the hammer did not go away I took the airtank back off again to test and it had the 18lbs of pressure. I put it back on again. That was not the problem.
Caesar.
 
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Old 03-13-12, 05:23 PM
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Yeah... but... 18 is probably too high, unless you have a 3 story home and your COLD pressure is also 18 PSI. The tanks air charge should MATCH the cold system pressure.

I do agree though, not the problem.
 
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Old 03-13-12, 08:44 PM
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If your erie zone valves slam closed that usually means they where installed backwards.
It can happen innocently enough after a long day.
The AG series close rather slow and I have used hundreds that never slammed shut.
 
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Old 03-14-12, 08:06 AM
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I put the air tank pressure at 18lbs because when I looked at air tanks at home depot they all came pre charged at 18lbs. Do you think I should drop mine a little? The zone that is the problem is on the ground floor. Also the zone valve seems to be closing slowly with the one spring removed so it is not slamming closed. It is just when it gets closed the pipe bangs.
I did get the ball valve kit to replace the internals so I guess I will try that next.
 
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Old 03-14-12, 03:48 PM
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TO, the guy with the Erie's was a couple years ago. I believe Caesar has Honeywell, but I only assumed that based on content of posts... either way, the Honeys are easy to install backards too.

Caesar, it might be possible that somehow an air bubble has formed out in the zone somewhere. That bubble could be responsible for a 'bounce' as the valve closes. It might not be a bad idea to do a 'power purge' on that zone if you have the valving for it.

Are you familiar with a 'purge station' ? Usually on the return side, a stop valve with a drain right above it... do you have those on your system?

when I looked at air tanks at home depot they all came pre charged at 18lbs
They did? Every heating tank I've ever seen has been at 12 PSI. Were you possibly looking at potable water tanks?

I would match the air pressure in the tank with whatever your COLD fill pressure is. The idea is that as SOON AS the water starts heating and expanding, the tank begins to accept the excess volume of water. With more pressure in the tank than the cold fill, the tank would not start controlling the excess pressure until the system pressure exceeded the air charge. The pressure would increase rapidly from say 12 PSI up to 18 PSI very quickly, then level off. Which could actually be OK... but it would decrease the capacity of the expansion tank somewhat.

Yeah, I would set it just at the cold fill, or a half PSI LESS ... but you need to get the boiler stone cold to see your minimum pressure.

By the way, you don't need to remove the tank every time, only drop the boiler pressure to ZERO. This is covered in the sticky post I linked to earlier. You can also add that optional drain valve between the shutoff and the tank, then you don't need to touch the boiler at all to check/charge.
 
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Old 03-15-12, 09:08 AM
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I do have honeywell valves 8043E1012. I did the purge with the water cold and also with the water hot. Seemed like a little air came out on the hot purge (a little sputtering). I will drop the air tank pressure down to 12-14 lbs. When I fired up the boiler from cold I cycled the problem zone valve from the themostat (with another zone heating as well) and until the water passing through the zone from the boiler got up to cut off temp there was not a hammer. I need to check my circulating pressure at high temp. Maybe that's it.
Caesar.
 
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Old 03-15-12, 02:31 PM
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Not sure I understand what you are saying...

You have purge stations and understand how to use them?

And that you purged the zone and it's not hammering anymore?
 
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Old 03-15-12, 03:18 PM
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caesar1949

Sorry what I meant was that the hammer did not come back until the water in the zone was up to temperature. I was cycling the zone at the thermostat while the boiler was heating up the water and until the water in the zone got up to temperature I did not have the hammer when the valve closed. (several times) The hammer did return when the system was up to temp and fully circulated. I had another zone on during this testing. Is that clearer?
Caesar
 
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Old 03-15-12, 04:12 PM
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Yes... but do you have purge stations on your system, know how to use them, and are these what you used to purge the zone?

I'm asking this because I would like to know that a proper 'power purge' has been performed on that zone.
 
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Old 03-27-12, 01:10 PM
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Caesar

To Trooper, I changed out the worn ball valve and O ring and the old one was way bad and the movement was very stiff. My problem seems to be fixed.
I have a picture of the old valve but don't know how to post it here.

I am planning on putting in new zone valves this summer because the others are probably in the same condition internally.
 
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Old 03-06-14, 12:57 PM
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Caesar,

AMAZING! Thanks! It works! I've been struggling with this problem for years. Good thing when the loud water hammer woke me up last time, at 3 A.M., I logged in, and found your post!

I have a tenant who pays $1200/month, who, like me, has been woken up repeatedly by the loud banging! (and complained about it regularly)

I paid the HVAC company that installed my gas heat system, they drained the expansion tank, charged me a fair amount, and failed to fix the problem.
 

Last edited by Shadeladie; 03-06-14 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Removed unnecessary comments
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