Honeywell Primary controller R7184A install question

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Old 03-22-08, 04:45 PM
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Honeywell Primary controller R7184A install question

Before I ordered the R7184A 1034 to replace my old R8184G 1005, I read the this install sheet.

http://customer.honeywell.com/honeyw...m?form=69-1459

Table 1 shows the R7174A is the base model (A model) and has very few extras.
But, table 1 shows the typical wire diagrams are in Fig Ref # 3,4,6 & 7.

I noticed the LIMIT wire on Figs 6 & 7 (and elsewhere), but when I received my
unit, it didn't have a Limit wire. (or a lug where it could be installed). Weird.


My Aquastat B1 & B2 were the only lines wired to the old R8184G and they
are also the only lines used by the new R7184A.

In other words, the R7184A MicroChip Primary controller was a 'drop-in' installation.
(With the addition of a jumper wire across the TT terminals, just like the old one).

The MicroChip would not see any power until the Aquastat sent down the 120VAC (B1 & B2).
Then, it would boot up & self test for 10 seconds before starting the oil burner.

Besides the 10 second delay, it seems to work just like the old controller.
I pressed the red button and got 3 flashes, telling me that the Cad sensor
was between 800 and 1600 ohms. Nice to know.


My question is about the safety features known as 'Limited Reset' and 'Lock Out Mode'.

If there is a burner problem and the controller is making a count of it's attempts to burn some oil,
when suddenly, the Aquastat turns off the AC (B1&B2) to the burner, is the count lost?
Or, has it been saved in non-volatile memory?

If the error mode info has not been saved, I can foresee a problem, if some goof upstairs is turning
the thermostat up and down trying to get heat.
That would cause the 120AC to the R7184A MicroChip to be going on and off.. Reseting each time.
As more and more oil builds up inside the boiler.. Not good.

Am I worried for nothing?
 
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Old 03-22-08, 06:23 PM
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Rich, I haven't used an A model, but the one that I installed required that I run THREE wires down from the aquastat. One neutral 120, one HOT 120, and a single wire from B1, which the 7184 uses as the LIMIT.

In this way, the control is powered all the time.

I think I read that you _can_ run it with only two wires though... let me take a look at the install diagram again.

As I recall, the LIMIT was a RED connection on the terminals.

Is yours the SERIES 5 ? (there should be a sideways 5 on the label)
 
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Old 03-22-08, 06:34 PM
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OK, I just looked again at the install...

L1 on the 7184 should be wired to a constant source of 120VAC (black wire).

L2 is the 120VAC neutral (white wire)

I think there should be a LIMIT terminal on yours... maybe the older series didn't have them ? I dunno ...

You can use B2 as the neutral connection from the aquastat, since that is connected to the L2 (neutral) connection internally.

As I said though, I had to add a wire ...

The A model that you have doesn't have the pre/post purge capability, so it may not really matter... I believe that the 'count' is saved in non-volatile memory though, so even if the unit is powered down, it will save the count.

OH... one other thing... your CAD cell is reading pretty high... that's on the verge of locking out ... it should be lower than that. What burner ?
 
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Old 03-22-08, 06:41 PM
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Figure 8 shows a model without a limit ...

wonder if that's yours ?

I found this regarding the A model:

For the R7184A control:
• The black lead (L1) from the R7184A control will connect to the limit of the appliance.
• The white lead (L2) from the R7184A control will connect all neutrals (L2) from the oil burner motor, igniter or ignition transformer and optional valve.
• The blue lead from the R7184A will connect to the solid state igniter or ignition transformer.
• The orange lead from the R7184A will connect to the motor.
• The cad cell connections are spade terminals on the bottom of the R7184A.
• This is the basic wiring for all the R7184 controls.

I think yer OK ... not to worry.
 

Last edited by NJT; 03-22-08 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 03-22-08, 08:22 PM
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R7184a

Rich & Trooper,
The A model has only 4 wires, no constant hot. Black is power via B1, White is neutral via B2, Orange goes to the motor black, & blue goes to ignition.
The flame safety circuit only comes into play if there is failure to ignite, in which case the control requires a manual reset. The only way someone could cause a problem via the thermostat is if the burner did not ignite AND the thermostat were turned down then back up repeatedly before the safety timed out (30 seconds).
 
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Old 03-23-08, 05:06 AM
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"no constant hot"

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
Rich & Trooper,
The A model has only 4 wires, no constant hot. Black is power via B1, White is neutral via B2, Orange goes to the motor black, & blue goes to ignition.
The flame safety circuit only comes into play if there is failure to ignite, in which case the control requires a manual reset. The only way someone could cause a problem via the thermostat is if the burner did not ignite AND the thermostat were turned down then back up repeatedly before the safety timed out (30 seconds).

Thanks for the input guys. It's been working real well so far.

The scenario I'm thinking of would be:

A. Call for heat comes from busy fingers upstairs

B. Failure to ignite, but some oil getting sprayed into the boiler.

C. Burner motor is heard turning off.

D. Busy fingers turn down the thermostat, and then back up.
(Turning off and then re-powering the R7184A. Resetting?)

Then C. & D. get repeated N times, adding more unburned oil to the boiler..

If the is no NV-RAM, then it seems like a Busy Fingers LockOut isn't going to happen..

I guess turning off the oil could test out the theory.
 
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Old 03-23-08, 11:28 AM
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R7184a

If there is no ignition & the burner motor stops (30 seconds after it starts), it matters not what is done to the stat. The control will have gone into it's safety lockout & will require resetting via the red reset button. The green light will blink rapidly (aprox. 2 blinks/second) indicating the control is in safety lockout.
If there is ignition & subsequent loss of flame, the burner will be shut down & the control will go into recycle (aprox 1 blink / 2 seconds) & restart a maximum of two times before going into restricted mode (hard lockout requireing manual reset).
 
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Old 03-23-08, 01:06 PM
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Memory ...

Grady, I think what Rich is wondering about (and me too) is if when the t'stat is turned down, and the power is cut to the 7184, does it 'remember' that it locked out previously ?

That's the part of the question about the NV RAM ... is the last lock out status saved in memory when the power is cycled to the control ?
 
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Old 03-23-08, 01:19 PM
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Locked out

Once it goes into lockout (1/2 second blink rate), it has to be manually reset. All of the power interuptions in the world won't reset it.
 
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Old 03-23-08, 02:47 PM
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How to test it? TFI?

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
Once it goes into lockout (1/2 second blink rate), it has to be manually reset. All of the power interuptions in the world won't reset it.


I would rather not turn off the oil, so I was thinking about sticking some black tape over the cad cell.

It should start up normally and then shut down, (Per technical blurb below).
It should lock up and "must be manually reset."

At that point, I should see the flashing LED.
Then, I can remove the call-for-heat (aka the AC power) and take off the tape off the cad cell.

If it has NV-RAM, then when I re-power it, it will need the reset button pressed.

If it has no memory of the failure, then it will come back on normally..




----------
Fig. 1. Typical sequence of operation.

1.STANDBY. The burner is idle, waiting for a call for heat.
When a call for heat is initiated there is a 2- to 6-second
delay while the control performs a safe start check.

2.VALVE-ON DELAY. As applicable, the ignition and motor
are turned on for a 15-second valve-on delay.

3.TRIAL FOR IGNITION (TFI). The fuel valve is opened, as
applicable. A flame should be established within the 15-,
30-, or 45-second lockout time.

4.LOCKOUT. If flame is not sensed by the end of the TFI, the
control shuts down on safety lockout and must be manually
reset. If the control locks out three times in a row, the con-
trol enters restricted lockout. Follow the instructions on the
front of this card to reset the control.

5.IGNITION CARRYOVER. Once flame is established, the
ignition remains on for 10 seconds to ensure flame stability.
It then turns off.

6.RUN. The burner runs until the call for heat is satisfied. The
burner is then sent to burner motor-off delay, as applicable,
or it is shut down and sent to standby.

7.RECYCLE. If the flame is lost while the burner is firing, the
control shuts down the burner, enters a 60-second recycle
delay, and then repeats the ignition steps outlined above. If
the flame is lost three times in a row, the control locks out to
prevent cycling with repetitious flame loss caused by poor
combustion.
 
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Old 03-23-08, 03:36 PM
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Rich, if Grady says it, believe it...

Test it if you want... but there's really no need.
 
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Old 03-23-08, 03:43 PM
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Test

Please feel free to test. As a further test, after restoring the power, give it 2-3 minutes. It better not try to start if the control had a rapid blink. In fact, you can turn the power off & on until your hand falls off if you so desire & it still won't retry. If it has a slow blink (detected then lost flame) the control will retry in about a minute.

Trooper, Thanks for the vote of confidence.
 

Last edited by Grady; 03-23-08 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 03-23-08, 05:33 PM
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Thumbs up Okay Grady!!

You nailed it. There is NVRAM on board!

With the tape blocking out the cad cell, it did take a while to shutdown and start flashing the LED. It seemed like about 30 or 40 seconds.

Then, I turned off the power, so I could get in and remove the tape.
When it came back on, the LED started flashing again.

I didn't wait very long to press the Restart, but when I did,
it cranked right up normally, with the LED going back to solid green.

I'm liking this R7184A more, now that see it's got the right stuff.

One other thing I like is the way it shuts off the spark after startup. It does make a noticeable difference in the noise level.

That transformer is a good load off the AC power bill, plus there isn't any load from the R7184A when it's in standby.

Thanks Guys!
 
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Old 03-26-08, 09:49 AM
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Weak CAD signal on a Carlin 100CRD

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post

OH... one other thing... your CAD cell is reading pretty high... that's on the verge of locking out ... it should be lower than that. What burner ?
Thanks for noticing that. I was afraid it was a bit too close to the edge.
Yesterday I decided to get a jump on the spring cleaning and cleaned up the Retention Ring. It's been a cold winter here in Greater Boston, so there was a higher than normal built up of gunk.
I'm also trying a smaller GPH tip. Moving down from a 1.35 to a 1.0 GPH. (Hago SS 60).

Anyways, it's showing 2 flashes (400 to 800 ohms) now.
Making me a little more confident it's going to stay on-line.

Thanks again!
 
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Old 03-26-08, 07:33 PM
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Nozzle

That's a pretty significant drop in input. What boiler do you have? Did you do any combustion tests?
 
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Old 03-26-08, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady View Post
That's a pretty significant drop in input. What boiler do you have? Did you do any combustion tests?
It's an HS Tarm OT-35S and IIRC, there has never been any type of test equipment connected to it.

The guys who installed it, just switched it on and left five minutes later. It didn't blow up or start smoking, so they just took off.

They did a very bad job of the installation. I ended up paying a lot of money to a welder for repair work.

The few times we have changed oil companies and got a tune-up and cleaning, it always turned out to be the same basic stuff that I normally did. Filters & Tips.
I guess around here, they don't believe in using all that new fangled equipment.

One time, we got a new spark transformer. I asked the tech why he was changing it.?. He said it was getting weak. I asked him, 'how can you tell without a volt meter or somthing'?
Then he said, 'Well, it is over 20 years old, isn't it'.?.
 
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Old 03-26-08, 08:32 PM
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You got the same techs I did Rich !

"Arggghhhhhh, that's a SHARP flame!"

and also why I lernt it my own self ...
 
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Old 03-27-08, 07:36 AM
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I wish I had lernt about heating stuff..

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
You got the same techs I did Rich !

"Arggghhhhhh, that's a SHARP flame!"

and also why I lernt it my own self ...
Most of the time, I've always left un-broken things alone.
But, the more I find out about the heating trade, makes me wonder about the safety and efficiency of my old boiler.

I've always had questions about 'experts' and then back in 1985 I took my car to a brake 'expert' for a minor job.
(Adjusting the rear shoes and repacking the rear bearings).

It was about 2 weeks later when I decided to rotate the tires, when I found out my right rear tire was about to fall off..
(Plus the grease I had paid for wasn't in the bearings)..

So much for trust.. I could go on for hours, about the lack of pride in workmanship.. But, I've got to work on my car..
And it's expensive when you are learning as you make each repair..
I've got to get my wife to drive me over to the metal supply shop, I need some drill rod to make a bushing on my lathe..
 
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Old 03-27-08, 08:01 AM
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Combustion Check

X-ring,

Make sure you have somebody come out and do a combustion check. IT'S A SMALL PRICE FOR SAFETY AND A PEACE OF MIND

I rebuilt my burner this past fall and paid $90.00 to have the tests done.

BOB
 
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Old 03-27-08, 02:12 PM
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Combustion Tests

Reducing the firing rate by 25% is a major change. You can cause a sorts of bad things to happen, not the least of which can be high levels of CO. I strongly urge you to call local service companies & ask if they can do an electronic combustion analysis. Just keep calling until you find one.
 
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Old 03-27-08, 03:16 PM
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I found a guy down on the cape that can do it..

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
Reducing the firing rate by 25% is a major change. You can cause a sorts of bad things to happen, not the least of which can be high levels of CO. I strongly urge you to call local service companies & ask if they can do an electronic combustion analysis. Just keep calling until you find one.

http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/sks/619236384.html

As a matter of fact, this guy can do just about anything!
Might as well get him to change that out-haul cleat
on my windsurfer while hes here..

I'm not so sure that cold calling service companies around here is going to get much results. Since 99% of the folks (that I know) just have their oil company service their heating gear.
For the most part, people don't even know that these kinds of tests even exist.
Therefore, there isn't going to be much demand for them.
Since the tests are not being done in homes very much, I can just about predict the quality of the work.

I have a friend who is a contractor. I'll check with him and see if he as ever heard of anyone in this area who does electronic combustion analysis.

I would imagine there are big companies that run tests on large systems like those in schools and hospitals, but asking them to make a house call isn't likely going to be one of those $90 jobs.

Now that I think about it, I think there may not be very many small companies that do these kinds of tests. They would need about $10 million in liability insurance before they could
give you that "Okay" print out...

---

There is a CO detector near the boiler and I'm pretty good about replacing it with a new one every few years. Never heard one go off, except for when it's being tested.
I wonder if those things really work..

The burner seems to be running about the same with a smaller flame pattern. Just a little less noise and I think the no-load run time might be a tad less..
 
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Old 03-27-08, 03:36 PM
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Combustion Analysis

You might want to check with the local HVAC supply houses. They should know at least which companies have purchased the equipment. If you can find anyone with electronic equipment, a good TECHNICIAN with a wet kit can do a decent job.

Don't get me started on CO detectors. The only good ones are not UL listed.
 
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Old 03-27-08, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady View Post
You might want to check with the local HVAC supply houses. They should know at least which companies have purchased the equipment. If you can find anyone with electronic equipment, a good TECHNICIAN with a wet kit can do a decent job.

Don't get me started on CO detectors. The only good ones are not UL listed.
"The only good ones are not UL listed."!! Dang!!
Well, that settles it! I'm taking that thing out to the garage and see what it does when I start a gas engine!
(My wife's idea of seeing if it works)..

My current model is a plug-in First Alert. And I suppose that's the worse one to buy.?.
 
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Old 03-28-08, 06:10 PM
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CO detector

I don't know that yours is any better or worse than any other UL listed detector. In order to meet UL requirements, a CO detector cannot go into alarm at less than 75(?) ppm.
Here's some interesting reading for you:

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/ca....2.322542.html

http://www3.whdh.com/features/articles/hank/BO14310/

https://www.escoinst.com/hosting/Pro...&hcProdCatID=3

The above links & tons more here:
http://www.bacharach-inc.com/co_news.htm
 
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Old 03-28-08, 07:18 PM
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Thanks for the scary reading

Well, I ordered a couple of the best ones I could find. (At least I hope they are going to work)!
They should be here in a couple of days.

"First Alert ONELINK Battery Operated Combination Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm with Voice Location #SCO501CN-3ST"


I wonder if there is some kind of test I could perform on them, to make sure they will work as well as the old one I'm replacing.

Time really slides by when you go gray.. My old detector was from 2001!! It's a good thing you got me thinking about safety.

Thanks,
 
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Old 03-28-08, 07:58 PM
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CO Detectors

Good luck with your detectors. I know they are expensive but I've seen those on Bacharach's site in action. I've also gone into a house with OVER 400ppm of CO & the detector was not going off. People would not have been alive much longer. We tansported all 3, one in very serious conditon, to the hospital.
 
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