Bell and Gosset Series 100 Circulator Pump


  #1  
Old 03-24-08, 06:21 PM
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Bell and Gosset Series 100 Circulator Pump

Hi,

This b and g is on my hot water heating system.

A week ago it got a rattle/noise to it so the plumbing company told me to replace it with a grundfos ups15-58fc.

Did this and then got water hammer.......found out this morning from Grundfos that this pump is not a replacement for my series 100.......and need a higher more expensive model.

Soooooo, then replaced the coupler assembly on my b and g.......as the plumbing company told me that's the part that goes.... re-installed it........only to still have the rattling still going on in it......

Any idea what it could be........

A loose screw???.........that would be ME......as I am now stuck with the grundfos that the plumbing company won't take back!!! even though I was willing to buy the more expensive one from them!!!
Plus.......replaced a coupler that wasn't broken either!!!

Any idea's?
 
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Old 03-24-08, 07:24 PM
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B&g 100

Without hearing it, obviously I'm guessing but it is possible the bearing assembly is going bad. Has anyone ever oiled it? It takes about a teaspoon or so of motor oil.
 
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Old 03-24-08, 08:13 PM
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It drinks oil!!!
In fact I oil it extra and leave a pan on the floor to catch the drips..........??????

It's like a marble rolling...but more metally.....lol......then it can stop........and then starts again.

I do oil it from all 3 spots.......front, middle and back spouts.
I use a 3 in 1 oil though........as I was told by the company?

Is the bearing assembly a big deal or can I let it run until it breaks worse?

Changing the front spring thing was actually easy!!!
I can even put the damn thing in alone now........scarey.......
 
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Old 03-24-08, 09:17 PM
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I used to have a BG series 100. I used 30wt engine oil in it.
It was fairly easy to rebuild.

http://www.statesupply.com/displayCategory.do?Id=4748

http://www.statesupply.com/displayItem.do?sku=BG1330
 
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Old 03-24-08, 09:53 PM
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The main cause of noise on the B&G pumps is from a broken coupling. Next on the menu is a bearing going south. It could be a loose impeller.

While the parts to "rebuild" these pumps are readily available I would caution anyone that they are NOT easy to rebuild successfully.

I would strongly urge you to get a rebuilt (or new) "bearing assembly" and impeller. Also get a set of motor mounts (over oiling of the motor will soften the mounting rubbers) and replace all at the same time.
 
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Old 03-24-08, 10:28 PM
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In the past on other motors the couplings went........and not realizing it was that easy to replace I let the whole thing be replaced.

I replaced the coupler today and found nothing was different between the one I took off and the new one?!? I replaced it anyhow. Better safe than sorry....

I will find another distributor and check the cost of the bearing assembly and motor mounts......judging by the help I've received from these businesses.......I can't do much worse of a job than them!!??!!
Here's hoping anyhow.......

I will run this one as is.........and have a warmer weather project.....unless the parts cost almost as much as the new Grundfos.......for the size of grundfos I need .......then I'll just get one of them.........

Just frosts me........brrrrr, wanted to use another word but thought I might get shut down.........lol.

So far noooooo water hammers.....and I even got the springs back on my zone boxes.........the one took a little / lot longer than the first 3 as it was tucked against the wall....but never underestimate the determination of a female!!!.........

I once had a plumbing company install a bell and gossett upside down........so......If I have to break down and call someone in.......I may as well really break it..........hahaha

Keep the advise coming..........it is greatly appreciated!
 
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Old 03-25-08, 07:28 AM
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Wow, checking the price list for repair parts......
the coupler I fixed is $9.83 on that site........I paid $25. at our plumbing dealer!!!
What a rip.......
So kind of worried that if the bearing part is $77 plus maybe the impeller I might be better off buying the new and guaranteed for 3 year Grundfos that ends in 99?
It's in my purse....but I got quoted $215. on it yesterday, how long he'll honor that price I don't know......

NO, I say NO.......water hammer last night with the old b and g in!!!
hmmmmmmm

Have a great day everyone!
 
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Old 03-25-08, 12:50 PM
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I strongly suggest you replace that pump with a Taco 007 pump. They cost less than one seal-bearing ass'y for the B&G, and require no maintenance. They use less power, and last a long time. It should be a direct swap, physically.
 
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Old 03-25-08, 03:35 PM
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Bearing Assembly

I've used the Taco 007 to replace B&G 100 circulators many many times & only once had a problem.

The Grundfos UP15-58 should do the job for you without problems. Did you remove the internal check valve? If not, you should. That pump is a 3 speed & on high will move a lot of water and sometimes can be noisey.

If you still want to replace the bearing assembly, here is a link to one (complete with impeller). http://patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/619
 
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Old 03-25-08, 05:51 PM
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Nope, I spoke with the fellow back east at Grundfos and he definitely said the ups15-58fc was not big enough.....
Have 2 floors and lots of square footage so doesn't have the strength even at high speed to get the water through.
He definitely recommended the one that ends in 99?

I put the old b and g on and not a shatter in the pipes all night.......heaven......

Will it hurt to run the b and g for the time being? with the rattle problem? or is my hydro going to skyrocket and they're going to think I've got a grow op happening?

It's still cold here ........and I'm thinking the next part might take a little longer to change?
Was 1 degree this morning or 34 f..........brrrrrr.

I'll check out the taco.....will it make me want taco's? lol

Would the bearing assembly be hard to put in......the coupler was a cinch.......but then I already had the pump out!!!

thanks everyone!
 
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Old 03-25-08, 06:41 PM
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What kind of piping do you have?

I have a 1" black iron main that runs through 19 monoflo valves and a few are capped. These are " branches feeding fin tube. I'm 4 levels of 600 sq ft plus a 5' 600 sq ft crawlspace. The kitchen is 2 70' loops of Pex-Al-Pex and aluminum plates sized to match the fin tube BTU output and supply temperature.

A single internal 15-58 pump on speed 2 is the only pump. A Series 100 was here when I moved in. The 15-58 handled the load at top and middle speeds. Just not enough flow for my monoflo system on speed 1.

My Series 100 was on an on/off switch when I first moved here so the first 15-58 on Speed 2 paid itself off in electrical savings in less than 2 seasons and that was at under $0.10/KWH.

Could you describe the piping?
 
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Old 03-25-08, 08:01 PM
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Nope.......copper........that's about all I know...
It's originally set up for 5 zones......but I have the garage switched off.
Each floor is approx 2800 sq ft.

I know when we first moved in and there was a built in vacumm in the house they kept burning out also....to wide an area for it?
So now use my trusty sears canister........although one day I'll have a dyson........no smelly bags.......
Have a long haired dog in the house and both my kid and I have long hair so I've burn out a belt on the sears powerhead!!! The curse of long hair.......hahaha
ps....kid and I are both chicks......in case you were thinking I was a hippee or something........lol.

How it loops and the rest.......I don't question.
I just know that the day I installed the grundfos we started getting the pipes knocking all night long......never happened with the b and g ........and 2 days now and not a knock with the b and g........and yes I bled the lines......even lines that had NEVER been bled before.......including a few knuckles!!!

I know the flanges are on the main pipes and that there's 6 1/2 inches between so both the b and g and the grundfos fit in.......without having to get things changed.
 
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Old 03-26-08, 02:33 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised if the 15-58 was pumping MORE than the 100 ...
 
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Old 03-26-08, 03:10 PM
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I called patriot supply........
and they checked into it and said the 26-99fc shouldn't be used and wrote that the up15-64sf should.........???
It costs more........but if it works?
I did ask about the Taco and he said they found them not as reliable as the grundfos.
He's can't figure out why the b and g breaks so much.

I also noticed when I put the coupler in the other day and I rotated the bar that goes into the fat part of the body that there was an odd noise.......so not sure if it would be the front bearing part?

Judging by the price of replacing parts that might not be broken might be just worth buying a stronger grundfos?

summer will be here before the parts/pump come!!!
such is life.......
 
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Old 03-26-08, 03:23 PM
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Sure they didn't mean a 26-64 not a 15-64?

Did you try the 15-58 on all speeds?

The Series 100 has a pretty flat curve...




Here are some Grundfos curves...

 
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Old 03-26-08, 03:59 PM
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Patriot supply part number is 52722322 and it comes up as a UP25-64sf???
Not even on the p
rint out you sent.......hmmmmmm?????
Yes I did try all the speeds on the 15-58..........and none worked any better than the other.
 
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Old 03-26-08, 04:25 PM
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Poor quality, but allows you to see the difference between the two pumps on equally scaled chart.



Your system most likely is more than 8 feet of head ... the 15-58 can pump against more restriction than the 100 on speed 3 . (head is restriction or 'resistance' to flow) that's why I said you might be pumping MORE than the 100 with the 15-58 . And that's also why I asked if you tried the different speeds (why Who asked too!).

More flow means more velocity, more velocity means the valves are gonna slam shut harder.

That's my theory anyway... could be wrong... someone tell me if I am, K ?
 
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Old 03-26-08, 04:43 PM
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So, I'm thinkin'...........
maybe I should just cut a damn tree down and burn it!!!

I want a pump that isn't going to rattle the pipes......is that toooo much to ask?!?
 
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Old 03-26-08, 04:48 PM
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Isn't a steep curve more desirable on a multizone system?

Pete
 
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Old 03-26-08, 04:50 PM
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ps.......
The furnace fellow I do use........and will for my hot water tanks.......did suggest I run the 15-58 on speed 2 or 3.

even though they are labelled a b and c......I called back east to verify.........
a-1
b-2
c-3.........
 
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Old 03-26-08, 05:03 PM
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kid, but did you TRY all three speeds ?
 
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Old 03-26-08, 05:45 PM
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YES, I did..........and on different days......
not within an hour or minute of each other to see the result.
 
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Old 03-26-08, 07:50 PM
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Bearing Assembly

To replace the bearing assembly:
Shut off boiler & allow to cool.
Close all valves you can find.
Drain just enough water from the boiler to drop the pressure to zero.
Remove coupler from motor & motor from bearing assembly. Bearing assembly is held to body by 4 bolts (9/16" head?). Remove bolts & bearing assembly from body.
Use a flat screwdriver to scrape out any remaining gasket from the body.
Apply a light coat of something (pipe dope, silicone, whatever) to hold the new gasket in place on the body.
Install new bearing assembly & add oil.
Re-install coupling & motor.
It too me longer to type this than it would to do it.
 
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Old 03-26-08, 09:01 PM
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What no pictures?????? lol
I can type quick.......but........what if that's not the broken part?????? seeing I put in a new coupler and the old one is still good......
and yes.........I saved it for next time!!!
I could swear the noise was coming from the fat middle part?
Wouldn't it just be worth putting a new baby in? and have a three year warranty?
I've spent $130 so far.......and I'm still at square one....not that I haven't tried......
It just pisses me off that the company sold me a pump that couldn't do the job and I'm stuck with it.........
Sorry, had to blow off some steam!
Thanks for your help I really do appreciate it and I think I'll find my stethascope?.......doctor thingy....and see if I can hear where it's coming from.......
Thanks for the painful typing event........I will print it off for reference......I never looked at the temp thing......just felt the pipes and loosened the bolts and stood back.....wow!!!
Shaking your head now aren't you!
Thing is .......I have time to shut it down for 1/2 a day and come back to it.......so no real chance of getting burnt?!? as compared to getting somewhere and having to do the job and move on.
Thanks again!
 
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Old 03-26-08, 09:46 PM
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Grady,
you're right most noise is coming from the front part!!!
It's just that when I put the coupler in and turned the thing it's attached to on the back part it didn't sound the healthiest?!?

If I did change it I would take the whole thing out as it's easier to work on with some room and support.......

They put the damn thing in the stupidest spot and there's absolutely no room to work on it..........and even less now with the iron filter system in.

Does it do any harm to run it as it is for the time being?
Or......is it raising my electric bill?

I saw with Patriot today it could take a week or two to get, not sure if the border would slow it down at all?
thanks!!!
 
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Old 03-27-08, 01:52 PM
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The Series 100 is a rather unique beast. One of the flattest curves going. Only other pump I know of with a similar curve is a Taco 110, which is also an inline pump.

That said, a Taco 007 or the Grundfos 15-58 on speed 2 oughta work. If fixing the Series 100 doesn't work, try a Taco 007. Partly cause it should work and mostly cause Grady said so.

Sell the 15-58 on craigslist or something.
 
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Old 03-27-08, 02:33 PM
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Bearing Assembly

Seems odd that it would take 2 weeks. I would expect it to be a stock part. I suggest you call them (toll free).

With it making noise, it's hard to tell how long it will hold out. Could be days, weeks, or months.
 
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Old 03-27-08, 04:50 PM
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Here's the verdict!!!
I ordered a complete new red b and g series 100 from Pex as it was $235..........so I will take this one out and in the meantime fix it myself with all the info you have given me.

Patriot is the best price for the bearing and impeller assembly to buy them from pex they would be 25 to 30 more but are brand new.....possibly Patriots are re-built but it doesn't matter as long as it works......

So then I'm under warranty for a year......and will have the second one fixed and have my at home warranty!!!
Yes, I was going to sell the grundfos either ebay or.....
maybe even offer it to my furnace guy when he re-does my hot water tanks.

So,,,,,,,,lots of other projects to do......dishwasher.....took the old one out need to put the new one in....track lighting...took the old sunshine ceiling down......but the wires look odd to me......white has been attached to black and black to white.........NO lie....

The order may take longer for me to get as it has to clear customs at the border etc...........??

My daughter has a plug in heater.....oil one......and I've got my electric blanket so I'm sure we'll pull through!!!

We even had snow today........
Generally early march or mid is the latest but this year....holy cow!!!
You watch I'll get the new pump and things will warm up!!!

I will also run the engine oil in the new pump and see if that prolongs the life.......
Just watch......I'll get the place fixed up and move.....palm springs is looking good right now!!!

Thanks so much everyone for all your help and leads!!!
 
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Old 03-28-08, 06:49 PM
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Oil

A tube of oil should come with the new circulator & one with the bearing assembly. Never use ordinary 3 in 1 oil in a circulator. They do make a 3 in 1 in a blue, black, & white can rather than the normal red, black, & white. The stuff in the blue can is fine. Most plumbing or HVAC supply houses sell oil in a plastic zoom spout bottle. It is fine too. Motor oil is OK if you can find non-detergent oil. That's what B&G used to specify.
 
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Old 03-28-08, 10:25 PM
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Just a thought?

What about using a synthetic oil like the high performance 5 30 wt?
I have an extra bottle for the car and was thinking maybe that would be good?

I do think I used the white, black and red 3 in 1?
I did go to the hardware store and that's what they told me to use.........arghhhhhhh......I'll check the label tomorrow.

Let me know your thoughts re synthetic.....

btw.......we had tons of snow today........roofs were white...unreal.......bet if I had heat......the weather would be tropical..........lol
 
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Old 03-29-08, 06:13 AM
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Oil

The 3 in 1 in the red, black, & white can is too light & I would not use it except in a dire emergency.

I don't think I'd use the synthetic 5w30 either. Again to light.

The stuff in the zoom spout bottles (usually about a 4 oz. bottle) works well & a 4 oz. bottle will last several years.

If you don't have heat, put the Grundfos on. Noise &/or some heat, even if you have to shut it off at night to sleep, beats no heat any day of the week.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 10:00 AM
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I'll double check my oil forgot to bring it up!!!

Thanks for the tip on the synthetic.....geez at the price of it you'ld think it would be good?

I do have the bell and gossett in with noisy bearing...
rather listen to bearings rattle than the pipes rattle.

I have the one zone on while I'm at home.......and flick the furnace switch off when I go and at night......

At night we boost the one zone up on and pre-heat the room for my kiddo......
Me I just crank up the electric blanket!!! lol

I know when I put in the last bell and gossett it said over oiling could be bad too........
and I will admit I oiled the hell out of the last one!!!
but then......I'm pretty sure with the wrong oil.
One fellow even tried to sell me wd40........and I'm pretty sure that's not good.......so I didn't get it.

I'll be sure to bring the oil jug up later.........I think it is around 4 oz........may package it different up here.....?
Maybe next time I run down to lynden or bellingham I'll be sure to stock up on the blue stuff!!!

I do remember the vials that came with the pump.
Thanks again
 
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Old 03-29-08, 10:13 AM
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Oil

Here you go. Exactly what B&G uses.
http://patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/638

Over oiling to the point of oil coming out of the weep hole will cause damage to the motor mounts, causing them to sag & putting stress on the bearing assembly. This is a classic case of too much is worse than not enough.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 10:23 AM
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Stress on the bearing assembly you say????

Gee when I was a kid......not enuf oil in my car was worse........go figure eh...........

Thanks for the link!
 
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Old 03-29-08, 10:47 AM
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Car-Oil

Actually a quart too much in a car is worse than being a quart low. Just FYI

You're welcome. Ya can't go wrong using what the manufacturer sells. That is unless you use way too much.
 
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Old 04-03-08, 12:37 PM
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Guess what I found!!!
an old b and g!!!
and a loose spring in the box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was thrilled......

Took it apart to put the new spring coupler in and that wasn't the problem........it was a spring from the pump before...........darnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Such is life.........sooooooooooo, I figured it's a good time to learn how to take it apart.......man......the bearing thing is seized up tight!!!!

I took off the top plate where you fill the oil in and it's like cruddy sand/dirt coming out.......along with what seems to be string!!!!!
There's one screw I can't get loose even with my liquid spray that's supposed to loosen anything!
not......
oh well.......still waiting for the new pump to get here...
Some guard at the border is probably wondering what the heck it is.......and if it has to do with a terrorist plot?!?
Not bloody likely if I can't get the screw loose...........hahaha.

So, back to the oilllllllll, I finally remembered to bring my bottle up to tell you what it says.....

It's a white bottle 118 ml.
with a red cap and the label is white, black and red.

Says it's 3-in-one multi purpose oil.

So, not heavy enough?
I will check if they sell the blue bottle up here next time I'm in my fav hardware store.

Still below seasonal up here......-2 this morning.....but the day is finally sunny and maybe? 10 today............
 
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Old 04-03-08, 02:48 PM
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Hi Grady,
You say motor oil.......
I remember someone saying 30 w..........
would that be the same as I use for my pressure washer?
Not sure if I have any left.....
Does it list ingredients like on food labels?
I didn't see that on the 3 and 1 I have.
I swear to you.......more than one fellow at the hardware stores sold me this same 3 in 1 oil......it comes with the long retractible spout now!!!
I see the thread from the front must have been the oil wick!!!???!!!
Have to learn something new today.......LOL
Thanks!
 
  #38  
Old 04-03-08, 05:01 PM
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Yes, that string is the oil wick. It is saturated with oil and lies on the "oilite" bearing which is made of a porous bronze alloy that allows the oil to slowly seep through for lubricaing the pump shaft.

While it is best to use the oil supplied / sold by Bell % Gossett for these pumps, in reality any medium weight oil is okay. Best to use a non-detergent oil and if you want to go by an SAE weight then anything from 20 to 40 is okay.

Be sure to check those rubber motor mounting rings to be sure that they have not deteriorated. If they have, they allow the motor to tilt and THAT will destroy a coupling in no time.
 
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Old 04-03-08, 06:16 PM
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I will use the oil that comes with the pump, but good to have the proper stuff on hand!!!
I haven't seen the mounting rings .......so either they're gone or I need to get the one screw out yet.

I will order extra when I do the bearings on this one I have in right now.

The pump I found I think is one from many many years ago.......and just one that never got taken.......
I think the last one where the spring just went I just gave away a few months ago.......geezzzzzzzzz
oh well ..........nice guy that was helpful with my water filter.

Now,.........it's not so cold out so may as well learn a little more........
If all goes well........I'll wind up with two back up pumps.....so the new one will probably never break..........knock on wood!!!
 
  #40  
Old 04-03-08, 07:36 PM
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Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 12,667
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Motor mounts

Here ya go Kid:
http://patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/535

They are not as easy to install as one might think but you can do it.

After you remove the cradle from the motor, look at the mounts on each end of the motor. If the top looks thicker than the bottom, you have bad mounts. Dollars to donuts says they are.
 
 

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